[Spoilers] Safe Haven Cinematic

[Aucald]

I think you're being purposefully obtuse here. Yes, tauren having tribes that're subtly different at best but ultimately sharing a common ethos involving shamanism, living in harmony with the land and a simple way of living is similar to the orcs having clans in name only but ultimately deferring to the Warchief. Are the trolls, orcs and tauren different? Yes, neither Nymrohd or I have said this, but they have similarities that the subsequent three races don't have with them. These commonalities are what made the Kalimdor Horde a plausible bloc of its own back in WC3.

No, I think you're literally underlining a key difference (something Thrall pointedly wanted the Orcs to emulate) and calling it a similarity when it manifestly isn't one - it's something that the Orcs strive to duplicate, not something they had. That's not what a similarity is. I've already said that the Orcs, Tauren, and Trolls have more in common than they do with the Forsaken or Blood Elves, this wasn't in contest at least by me - what I am saying is that those surface similarities do not make them anything close to having the same cultures, and the only separation between the Horde's client-races is one of degree (and not nearly as many as you seem to want to posit). The Horde is still a plausible bloc without needing a quasi-monolithic culture - it never had one (back in WC3), and it was never in need of one. That is my point.

[Super Dickmann]

No, I think you're literally underlining a key difference (something Thrall pointedly wanted the Orcs to emulate) and calling it a similarity when it manifestly isn't one - it's something that the Orcs strive to duplicate, not something they had. That's not what a similarity is. I've already said that the Orcs, Tauren, and Trolls have more in common than they do with the Forsaken or Blood Elves, this wasn't in contest at least by me - what I am saying is that those surface similarities do not make them anything close to having the same cultures, and the only separation between the Horde's client-races is one of degree (and not nearly as many as you seem to want to posit). The Horde is still a plausible bloc without needing a quasi-monolithic culture - it never had one (back in WC3), and it was never in need of one. That is my point.

The separation between say, the blood elves and the orcs are night and day. An established, magic-focused and Light-worshipping society with a king, standing army, a civilian class, farming and so forth, a protracted history of peaceful existence as a state and no tribalistic notions of honor vs. A society that was nomadic and disunited for the majority of its existence, worshipped the elements, lived in accord with nature instead of changing it to fit their needs, considers non-warriors to be second-class citizens and were always in some form of low or large-scale conflict. Compare that with the tauren and you'll find you have far more to work with comparison-wise. These are not surface similarities, but core aspects of them that drew them together.

The Horde works as a plausible bloc on the basis of interests, not culture, hence why an expansion based around imposing one notion above all others to govern the entirety of the Horde is doomed to fail by default.

[Kumorii]

I think when you are traveling across two worlds 'I followed them' can not mean 'I followed their footsteps'. So at least to me assuming he was following them a realistic way is a lot less assumption than thinking he followed their actual traces on the ground over stone, sand and grain.

And Sylvanas would of course use undead rogues. We don't even know what their exact orders were and at least at the beginning they seemed to keep far enough away so you couldn't smell or sense them. Thrall sensed them first, if you look at his reaction while reaching for the forge.

Although I agree and them going to their deaths was the desired outcome. I still think Sylvanas deliberately baits people into coming after her. Nothing else makes sense at this point. Though of course we'll need to wait and see how everything plays out at the end, to be sure.

I never said it was "I followed their footsteps". Although your reasons are footprints in their own right. There are lots of unknowns. Which is my problem with that sentence. I followed them, how tho?

Why would Sylvanas use undead rogues if they are awful rogues by nature? Because she is undead? She has lots of sympathy and followers among the horde, Blizzard keeps telling us she has. Why not use a non-revealing rogue? There is no sense in using a rogue that reveal their presence by default.
You saying she would is exactly why I think it's an obvious setup. Undead rogues, easy to track and people will associate it with sylvanas. Boom, setup complete.

Baits people into coming after her makes no sense. I my eyes only thing that makes sense is if it's a setup. Evident by the corruption around the eyes and the shot that reveals their face, which wasn't necessary since they are unknowns, which shows said corruption and the scar that shows N or V. It's obvious to me that they are saying, this isn't what it looks like.

[Aucald]

The separation between say, the blood elves and the orcs are night and day. An established, magic-focused and Light-worshipping society with a king, standing army, a civilian class, farming and so forth, a protracted history of peaceful existence as a state and no tribalistic notions of honor vs. A society that was nomadic and disunited for the majority of its existence, worshipped the elements, lived in accord with nature instead of changing it to fit their needs, considers non-warriors to be second-class citizens and were always in some form of low or large-scale conflict. Compare that with the tauren and you'll find you have far more to work with comparison-wise. These are not surface similarities, but core aspects of them that drew them together.

The Horde works as a plausible bloc on the basis of interests, not culture, hence why an expansion based around imposing one notion above all others to govern the entirety of the Horde is doomed to fail by default.

Not in argument. I am saying the Trolls, Tauren, and Orcs had surface similarities but striking core distinctions as well - not that the Blood Elves or Forsaken were not the most distant races in terms of easy comparison. I mean the main comparison here we're having seems be in terms of aesthetics like architecture, not in the fundamental ways these groups are socialized. The Orcs are a warrior culture where strength often defines right. Where higher or nobler concepts like mercy, justice, or equality are often completely absent from the social equation. The Tauren by contrast have achieved a rough equilibrium with their lands, living in a society relatively free of upheaval or worry, their main concern being predation by an outside force (the Centaur). The Darkspear Trolls were survivalists and scavengers, eking out a subsistence-level existence due to their exile into an unfamiliar and uncertain environment. These aren't similar cultures whatsoever, regardless of how different the Forsaken and Blood Elves might also have been. As I said above, the difference is only one of degree.

What exactly are their interests, per se? Shamanism? The Tauren and Orcs share that, the Trolls not quite as much. A warrior culture? Pretty much limited to the Orcs. A love of nature? Tauren and perhaps the Orcs again, not so much the Trolls. Nomadic existence? The Tauren and Orcs by necessity, the Darkspear not so much (although they were suffering in exile at the time). I'm still looking for those strong, shared, core aspects.

[eduwneso]

Do a cinematic, where you have random assassins attack thrall, right as he's like "nah fam, I'm staying here" to get him to return... This is forced bullshit, and you know it is.

But then again, iirc you were so excited for the last rebellion back in MoP that this might actually be enjoyable content for you...

But what if she wants thrall to help the rebellion, and uses this two rogues so thrall joins with saurfang, maybe she is planning something that requires thrall helping the rebellion, who knows?

[formerShandalay]

I never said it was "I followed their footsteps". Although your reasons are footprints in their own right. There are lots of unknowns. Which is my problem with that sentence. I followed them, how tho?

Why would Sylvanas use undead rogues if they are awful rogues by nature? Because she is undead? She has lots of sympathy and followers among the horde, Blizzard keeps telling us she has. Why not use a non-revealing rogue? There is no sense in using a rogue that reveal their presence by default.
You saying she would is exactly why I think it's an obvious setup. Undead rogues, easy to track and people will associate it with sylvanas. Boom, setup complete.

Baits people into coming after her makes no sense. I my eyes only thing that makes sense is if it's a setup. Evident by the corruption around the eyes and the shot that reveals their face, which wasn't necessary since they are unknowns, which shows said corruption and the scar that shows N or V. It's obvious to me that they are saying, this isn't what it looks like.

My reason for saying she's baiting people into coming after her is essentially because she's been antagonizing everyone who may even remotely be prone to doing so has been provoked into actually doing so by her own actions. From the War of Thorns on, when she thinks about what happens when she takes the Horde from Saurfang by failing to break him to her world view, she thinks he's going to be an enemy to her, and a terrible one. And then she turns right around and makes him her enemy. Not only by destroying Teldrassil (the very thought of which made him rage at Nathanos when they were planning the whole thing), but by mocking him when he confronts her at Undercity and even pushing it further by mentioning his son, then and there when she just dropped Blight on her own soldiers. Tell me that's not a surefire way to make him want to come after you. She's not dumb, she knows it, which makes me think, it's what she wants.
Next one is Baine, we all saw what happened, when she hung Derek up out in the open to be tortured into compliance. She made it happen out in the open, knowing full well it would make people and especially Baine furious.

So after having said that, and I don't think those things simply happened because Sylvanas is dumb and were intentionally made to lure dissenters out... with Thrall it's something different and yes, while I sure wouldn't put it past her to actually go and provoke Thrall, there is some doubt here.
Because we know one more entity that has an axe to grind with Thrall. And that is N'Zoth. Maybe, even if Sylvanas is actually allied with N'Zoth, she wasn't going to go for Thrall, but N'Zoth wanted him to come so he can get the kill on him (a bit like she didn't want to become warchief, but 'some force' made her anyway). Even if all the world can forget that Thrall played a role in Deathwing's demise, I don't think N'Zoth would. So what would he do? Send some undead rogues to make it look like it was Sylvanas and boom, Thrall is back and joins the crew.
So now we have all (mortal) people that ever opposed the Old Gods united against Sylvanas. Saurfang, who led the charge against C'thun. Thrall, who brought down Deathwing. Jaina who at least was part of the people that tried to bring everyone together against Yogg Saron back in Wrath. Rhonin is already dead. Brann is in on it because he always is and he's with his brother. Tyrande and Malfurion crossed the Old Gods several times and especially Malfurion has proven to be a real nuisance for them, thwarting their efforts at Hyjal and in the Nightmare. All of those now furiously chase Sylvanas. Plus the rest of her very own enemies, like Genn and now Baine. The only question to me is, is she in on this and has been promised power, immortality, the Frozen Throne or anything else for playing the bait or is she being played? I'd rather she not be played like that, but.. of course we can't be sure.

[Skulltaker]

But what if she wants thrall to help the rebellion, and uses this two rogues so thrall joins with saurfang, maybe she is planning something that requires thrall helping the rebellion, who knows?

Ah, yes, the famous 'My grand scheme requires genocide, mass destruction and manslaughter, and I play everyone like puppets from knowledge I earned off screen' approach, which made Lex Luthor in Batman V Superman such a great character.

[The Stormbringer]

But what if she wants thrall to help the rebellion, and uses this two rogues so thrall joins with saurfang, maybe she is planning something that requires thrall helping the rebellion, who knows?

That may be even more convoluted than the Lich King's "I'll give these adventurers numerous threats of steadily increasing difficulty until they're absolute badasses, then when they've killed my finest generals and creations, I'll whip out my full power and make them my most powerful minions EVER! It's brilliant, brilliant, BRILLIANT!"

[Kumorii]

My reason for saying she's baiting people into coming after her is essentially because she's been antagonizing everyone who may even remotely be prone to doing so has been provoked into actually doing so by her own actions. From the War of Thorns on, when she thinks about what happens when she takes the Horde from Saurfang by failing to break him to her world view, she thinks he's going to be an enemy to her, and a terrible one. And then she turns right around and makes him her enemy. Not only by destroying Teldrassil (the very thought of which made him rage at Nathanos when they were planning the whole thing), but by mocking him when he confronts her at Undercity and even pushing it further by mentioning his son, then and there when she just dropped Blight on her own soldiers. Tell me that's not a surefire way to make him want to come after you. She's not dumb, she knows it, which makes me think, it's what she wants.
Next one is Baine, we all saw what happened, when she hung Derek up out in the open to be tortured into compliance. She made it happen out in the open, knowing full well it would make people and especially Baine furious.

So after having said that, and I don't think those things simply happened because Sylvanas is dumb and were intentionally made to lure dissenters out... with Thrall it's something different and yes, while I sure wouldn't put it past her to actually go and provoke Thrall, there is some doubt here.
Because we know one more entity that has an axe to grind with Thrall. And that is N'Zoth. Maybe, even if Sylvanas is actually allied with N'Zoth, she wasn't going to go for Thrall, but N'Zoth wanted him to come so he can get the kill on him (a bit like she didn't want to become warchief, but 'some force' made her anyway). Even if all the world can forget that Thrall played a role in Deathwing's demise, I don't think N'Zoth would. So what would he do? Send some undead rogues to make it look like it was Sylvanas and boom, Thrall is back and joins the crew.
So now we have all (mortal) people that ever opposed the Old Gods united against Sylvanas. Saurfang, who led the charge against C'thun. Thrall, who brought down Deathwing. Jaina who at least was part of the people that tried to bring everyone together against Yogg Saron back in Wrath. Rhonin is already dead. Brann is in on it because he always is and he's with his brother. Tyrande and Malfurion crossed the Old Gods several times and especially Malfurion has proven to be a real nuisance for them, thwarting their efforts at Hyjal and in the Nightmare. All of those now furiously chase Sylvanas. Plus the rest of her very own enemies, like Genn and now Baine. The only question to me is, is she in on this and has been promised power, immortality, the Frozen Throne or anything else for playing the bait or is she being played? I'd rather she not be played like that, but.. of course we can't be sure.

Seems like we agree on some things. I think N'zoth is trying to pit people against each other. Sylvanas knows this and thus try to play along to draw him out in the end, where he can be killed. If she is an ally with him or does things because she's evil, she is just simply Garrosh 2.0. So the other option is that all of this serves another purpose than what it is on the surface. Which is why all the actions against her is "part of the plan" so to speak. I don't know if Thrall being there is part of the plan or not during the rescue of baine warcampaign or if it's a surprise. If it's a surprise for Nathanos / Sylvanas I will take it as a sure sign that they were sent by someone else to pin it on Sylvanas.

[Zandalariprelate]

Ah, yes, the famous 'My grand scheme requires genocide, mass destruction and manslaughter, and I play everyone like puppets from knowledge I earned off screen' approach, which made Lex Luthor in Batman V Superman such a great character.

Well Afrasiabi seem to think like Snyder, so I won't discard that is the real plan.

[Super Dickmann]

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Sylvanas is an Old God puppet, she sent those guys after Thrall to lower her score on the karma meter and she 'seemingly' let Baine go because PC involvement on her side was never intended and this was a hasty band-aid. Ditto Derek.

@Aucald

You're expanding minor differences into vast ones to portray a heterogeneity and separation of cultures that simply isn't there. This is especially the case in WC3, where all three had a dedicated 'shaman' unit and were involved in some form of spirit worship, all were tribal and didn't have prior sedentary life in a large city or a history of advanced civilization and were all noblesavage warriors (Tauren going death to the enemies of the Horde, orcs with their lok'tar ogar, troll batriders on their suicide runs) etc. At the time, the orc clans were out the window and all orcs except Grom were like Thrall, Vol'jin was a stock witch doctor and Cairne was a mentor figure. The non-orc races were just orcs that were less fleshed out at the time, hence why people to this day can draw an easy distinction between the WC3 Horde roster and the one that followed.

But going in further depth as to the lore that followed, your argument about shamanism is a huge stretch. All of the three practice animism, worshipping animal spirits, be it the guiding spirits you meet in your trials in Mulgore, the wolf spirit the orcs hearken back to in OL, or the troll loa. All also practice communion and reverence for their ancestors, be it directly by way of Bwon's magic, the orcish taboo on raising their own because of the cultural background of Oshu'gun or the tauren spirit seanses. The trolls do have a reverence for nature in that vein, the troll one is just deemphasized, but it informs their aesthetic, clothing, means of warfare and so on. They obviously care about staying in the good books of the nature spirits. They all lacked previous established cities or agriculture, since the Darkspear are a tiny disliked tribe, the tauren were hunted down and the orcs were in camps, and they all follow a tribal model rather than advanced institutions, where loyalty is individual and familial rather than on the basis of the state. None of these things are shared by the following three races and all of these things along with their history are why the Kalimdor Horde, at least under Thrall, was a far more cohesive unit. Hence, an alliance based on actual cultural commonalities. The one on interest is the one with the Forsaken and blood elves.

[sam86]

Dryads are immune to magic. The are special kind of special after all.

Agile lean warrior won't outrun fireball, not to mention lightning bolt.

they don't have target lock -.-
also i wasn't talking about him fighting mage in first place, the opposite, Grom isn't the type who build immunity to magic

[Powerogue]

Is Voss the god-emperor of Forsaken now for her opinions to be authoritative statements about the Forsaken? What's that? She isn't? Instead she only joined the Forsaken in BfA, which means she had little time to ingrate herself into their culture? OK then, you can wave your non-argument bye bye. Never mind that her meaningless musings expressed only wonder if Sylvanas still takes pride in free will of the Forsaken, not any actual claims of it being violated. Meaning you have less than nothing here. A new record!

She understands it better than Sylvanas. Maybe she'll make a better leader.

Just as long as it isn't that lightforged femanduin I'll be cool with it.

"I have less than nothing" for citing two examples of Blizzard outright stating something as clearly as possible and you have nothing. I feel like even if the ghost of Arthas himself came down and said "Good job, Sylvanas on brainwashing one of your own like that! You've become exactly like me!" and Sylvanas saying "Yes indeedy I have! Thanks, bro! You're my idol!" you'd find some way to dismiss it.

Oh wait, there actually is a clip of her agreeing that she's become just like the lich king, it's from Cataclysm. >.> Was the argument supposed to be that she's been this bad since then and that makes it OK?

Back to the topic of the actual thread, I take it this cinematic comes before the 8.2 war campaign segment involving Baine. I don't know much about it yet but I have to wonder if Sylvanas's public image will be tarnished once it comes out that she tried to assassinate big league popular figures like Saurfang and Thrall. Things are coming to a boil, and it seems like we'll finally see whether this ends disappointingly like MOP or spins off in another direction entirely. Let's hope for the latter.

[Aucald]

You're expanding minor differences into vast ones to portray a heterogeneity and separation of cultures that simply isn't there. This is especially the case in WC3, where all three had a dedicated 'shaman' unit and were involved in some form of spirit worship, all were tribal and didn't have prior sedentary life in a large city or a history of advanced civilization and were all noblesavage warriors (Tauren going death to the enemies of the Horde, orcs with their lok'tar ogar, troll batriders on their suicide runs) etc. At the time, the orc clans were out the window and all orcs except Grom were like Thrall, Vol'jin was a stock witch doctor and Cairne was a mentor figure. The non-orc races were just orcs that were less fleshed out at the time, hence why people to this day can draw an easy distinction between the WC3 Horde roster and the one that followed.

And I'm claiming you're minimizing major differences into minor ones to portray a homogeneity and unity of culture that isn't there - strange, isn't it? The only Shaman unit of WC3 were Orcish Shamans and the Farseer Hero - if you're referring to Tauren Spirit-walkers and Troll Witch Doctors, those aren't Shaman. Spirit-walkers have their own abilities and purpose beyond that of Shamans, and Witch Doctors aren't even of the same basic design (as they fall somewhere between Alchemists and Necromancers depending). "Noblesavage" as a meme is all well and good, but once you start actually looking at the cultures of the Orcs, Tauren, and Trolls with a critical eye you find a lot more there beneath the blank of generalizations that "noblesavage" conveys. I mean if you define "Elf" as tall, pointy-eared, and prone to mysticism you can paint all of WoW's Elves with a broad brush as well - but the truth is that the Sin'dorei are nothing at all like the modern Kaldorei, or even their Nightborne kin. You're trading in basic stereotypes, and I am not.

But going in further depth as to the lore that followed, your argument about shamanism is a huge stretch. All of the three practice animism, worshipping animal spirits, be it the guiding spirits you meet in your trials in Mulgore, the wolf spirit the orcs hearken back to in OL, or the troll loa. All also practice communion and reverence for their ancestors, be it directly by way of Bwon's magic, the orcish taboo on raising their own because of the cultural background of Oshu'gun or the tauren spirit seanses. The trolls do have a reverence for nature in that vein, the troll one is just deemphasized, but it informs their aesthetic, clothing, means of warfare and so on. They obviously care about staying in the good books of the nature spirits. They all lacked previous established cities or agriculture, since the Darkspear are a tiny disliked tribe, the tauren were hunted down and the orcs were in camps, and they all follow a tribal model rather than advanced institutions, where loyalty is individual and familial rather than on the basis of the state. None of these things are shared by the following three races and all of these things along with their history are why the Kalimdor Horde, at least under Thrall, was a far more cohesive unit. Hence, an alliance based on actual cultural commonalities. The one on interest is the one with the Forsaken and blood elves.

Animism itself is no single, unified doctrine - the spiritual practices of the Orcs and Trolls are very, very different. Both the Tauren and Orcs have a strong component of ancestor reverence or worship to their spiritualities, the Trolls really don't. The way the Tauren and the Orcs venerate nature is also different, with the Tauren having a unified belief in their Earthmother but the Orcs practicing a quasi-pantheistic spirituality incorporating both animism and ancestor-worship but without any kind of central deity figure. The Darkspear have an ancient legacy of rulership that still calls to them (as shown in "Shadows of the Horde"), so while they're down on their luck at the moment they carry with them the legacy of one having ruled Azeroth, a culture trait neither the Tauren nor the Orcs share in. The Tauren are kind of all about agriculture as befits their naturalistic leanings, its just that they've been forced to adapt to a nomadic lifestyle due to their animosity with the marauding Centaur tribes of central Kalimdor. Again, you're dealing in very surface-level similarities here while discounting or outright denying the details of each culture's depth, which kind of cheapens the Horde races as an end result.

[Mehrunes]

She understands it better than Sylvanas. Maybe she'll make a better leader.

Uh, huh. Someone that wasn't actually ever a member of the Scourge totally understands the issue of free will among the Forsaken better than Sylvanas. You sure got me there.

"I have less than nothing" for citing two examples of Blizzard outright stating something as clearly as possible and you have nothing. I feel like even if the ghost of Arthas himself came down and said "Good job, Sylvanas on brainwashing one of your own like that! You've become exactly like me!" and Sylvanas saying "Yes indeedy I have! Thanks, bro! You're my idol!" you'd find some way to dismiss it.

So not only Voss understand the issue of free will of the Forsaken better than Sylvanas despite never going through the same plight in relation to it as Sylvanas and first generation Forsaken, she's also Blizzard now? Fascinating tale. Meanwhile in the real world, what you quoted there was nothing more than Voss' own in-story opinions, not lore statements from Blizzard. And since they are just that, they aren't automatically fact. Who'd have thunk. Not that there's much thunk that's required here, because, as I already pointed out, Voss herself makes it clear that she's merely speculating there. That is why I said you have less than nothing. Which I already explicitly made clear as well. How any of this still eludes you is beyond me, but I'd lie if I said it's surprising.

And sure, I'd say the same think if ghost of Arthas came down and said what you wrote there. Because it'd still be nothing more than his opinion. And, to be specific, it'd be objectively wrong opinion, because Derek still never joined the Forsaken. Nor has the Lich King engaged in mere brainwashing. I'm not 100% sure what you actually tried to achieve with this brilliant example. If it was shooting yourself in the foot, congrats, you achieved it perfectly.

Oh wait, there actually is a clip of her agreeing that she's become just like the lich king, it's from Cataclysm. >.> Was the argument supposed to be that she's been this bad since then and that makes it OK?

Damn, you're stooping really low if you want to use that as an argument. Garrosh himself instantly realized Sylvanas was being snarky in her reply to him and instantly called her out on that. And he wasn't exactly the brightest bulb around...

[tromage2]

Pretty crazy that Thrall is making his home in Nagrand.
It is the world that Garrosh build and had leadership over and Thrall settle down in a world that Garrosh also wanted to create for real in Kalimdor.

[Zandalariprelate]

don't forget that not even HALF the story is allowed to be seen by BOTH factions... I'm not saying you only see half the story on your respective faction... I'm saying you still don't see half the story when playing through both of the faction stories.

Yeah besides of that which has hurt the whole story to another level(not even WoD did that kind of damage and that expansion was abandoned at birth). I am not getting the feeling there is a shitty cliffhanger at the end of this expansion and we have to deal with the consequences for at least the first half of the next one

[Velshin]

Is this AU Draenor or Outland?

Its stunning, as usual. I'm really curious about the intentions to kill Thrall, though. I guess Sylvanas anticipated that Thrall may become resurgent given what is happening, but given that Saurfang followed them I think there are more implications than the story we currently have can offer up. Just seems a little out of place without some level of context in-game.

There is also a possibility that Saurfang is lying about the "I followed them" and it was just simply they followed him. But he said that so he can convince Thrall to come back, but yeah I don't think Saurfang is this kind of character but just food for thoughts I guess.

[Houle]

"So stupid it's almost funny" is the underlining theme of this entire expansion.

Ah so true. At least the memes are good

[Super Dickmann]

And I'm claiming you're minimizing major differences into minor ones to portray a homogeneity and unity of culture that isn't there - strange, isn't it? The only Shaman unit of WC3 were Orcish Shamans and the Farseer Hero - if you're referring to Tauren Spirit-walkers and Troll Witch Doctors, those aren't Shaman. Spirit-walkers have their own abilities and purpose beyond that of Shamans, and Witch Doctors aren't even of the same basic design (as they fall somewhere between Alchemists and Necromancers depending). "Noblesavage" as a meme is all well and good, but once you start actually looking at the cultures of the Orcs, Tauren, and Trolls with a critical eye you find a lot more there beneath the blank of generalizations that "noblesavage" conveys. I mean if you define "Elf" as tall, pointy-eared, and prone to mysticism you can paint all of WoW's Elves with a broad brush as well - but the truth is that the Sin'dorei are nothing at all like the modern Kaldorei, or even their Nightborne kin. You're trading in basic stereotypes, and I am not.

Generalizations and simplifications exist for a reason. In this instance, they describe a certain set of themes and common cultural traits that unite these races and do not apply to each other. In this situation I'm not giving physical descriptors but consistent things that exist in all of these cultures. They have their differences as well, as both I and Nymrohd earlier have repeated, but that does not mean that they don't have significant commonalities. Spiritwalkers are a type of shaman and witch doctors, while combining other traits as well are depicted in-game as being shaman like. In the same way that blood knights and vindicators are paladins despite different origins and histories. You have at no point debunked that these commonalities exist, but stated that past them there's more variety - of course, I've spent pages upon pages going on about the differences between the three in other topics after all, I know this, but you can't deny that these commonalities are there and are key to their perception as a bloc by the playerbase. When I say noblesavage, everyone immediately knows which races I mean, ditto when someone says Kalimdor Horde, OG Horde, classic Horde or so on.

Animism itself is no single, unified doctrine - the spiritual practices of the Orcs and Trolls are very, very different. Both the Tauren and Orcs have a strong component of ancestor reverence or worship to their spiritualities, the Trolls really don't. The way the Tauren and the Orcs venerate nature is also different, with the Tauren having a unified belief in their Earthmother but the Orcs practicing a quasi-pantheistic spirituality incorporating both animism and ancestor-worship but without any kind of central deity figure. The Darkspear have an ancient legacy of rulership that still calls to them (as shown in "Shadows of the Horde"), so while they're down on their luck at the moment they carry with them the legacy of one having ruled Azeroth, a culture trait neither the Tauren nor the Orcs share in. The Tauren are kind of all about agriculture as befits their naturalistic leanings, its just that they've been forced to adapt to a nomadic lifestyle due to their animosity with the marauding Centaur tribes of central Kalimdor. Again, you're dealing in very surface-level similarities here while discounting or outright denying the details of each culture's depth, which kind of cheapens the Horde races as an end result.

On the contrary, describing commonalities in theme and character and how they inform the creation of an in-story bloc, which blocs are thus plausible and which aren't is a way of assessing the storyline. And you know this, because I've gone at extreme length in other topics especially on how far this goes and where they differ, bringing up many of the same points and adding to it how the orcs' dynamic vis a vis these ostensibly similar races changed. This having been said, the tauren aren't really agricultural, they're hunters who've invented the rifle and that seems to occupy a much larger part of their lives. None of these races have sedentary living in their recent history.