[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Jayma]

And again, to me there is a big difference between burning the red keep and burning the city.
She wanted to fly to the keep and burn it before, she could have done so now and it would have been in line with your actions and words.

Instead she burns the entire city.

It was foreshadowed though. Just remember those 2 throwaway lines from Season 2 & 6

I will stare at the Keep as the bells ring. Then proceed to burn everything, but the Red Keep.

[Th3Scourge]

Just too many people in this thread shitting on GoT because its the cool edgy thing to do.

Yeah no one actually has any issues with how bad the last few seasons have been compared to the earlier seasons. Just them damn internet kids being cool on the interwebz

[Jastall]

And again, to me there is a big difference between burning the red keep and burning the city.
She wanted to fly to the keep and burn it before, she could have done so now and it would have been in line with your actions and words.

Instead she burns the entire city.

Indeed. She had the idea to burn the keep, and was stopped by her advisors. Her deciding to sod their advice now after living through several losses, regardless of the fact that the Lannisters surrendered and the Keep is packed full of commoners, would make perfect sense as a descent into cold ruthlessness that could be interpreted as villainy but also justifiable in some way. It would also definitely fulfill the "rule with fear" conclusion that she came to this episode.

That's not what she did. She ignored the Keep -her primary objective- in favor of torching random nobodies. Not only is there no rhyme or reason to it, Dany ignoring those who wronged her is indeed something very out of character I find. Hell had she torched the Keep before then incinerated King's Landing I'd have far fewer qualms even if the end result is the same.

[draynay]

I would love to quote some primary sources on historical defensive measures against dragon attacks but I can't find any.

[Nebron]

Yea the pacing could have been better. But I really don't think she became the mad queen out of nowhere. It wasn't just a snap of the finger and she went full berserk, she has ALWAYS had this side to her. This is also the first time we're shown the opposing perspective of Dany's siege. Like I said before, if we were shown these types of angles from previous sieges, I think people would have a different perception of Dany. Just think of all the times throughout the series where Dany has become enraged and did extreme acts. She has even said multiple times throughout the series that she'll do whatever it takes to become queen. Now look at Jon. How often has he done anything morally extreme? Now if Jon had gone mad and done some extreme shit, that'd be out of character. So again, unless you were rooting for her and she was your favorite character, it was pretty evident that she was on the top of the fence, capable of leaning either way.

Disagree. I knew she was meant to become the Mad Queen. And yeah, it happened in the matter of 2 episodes. My bets, in episode 6 she would be like super-mad queen.

I don't say being insane is out od her character. And you actually admit the pacing is wrong. Perspective doesn't really matter. You can say that about any randomly picked character that participated in any battle, or even Arya killing the Freys.

They definitely left some clues, that this is her destiny. Now look. She loses Jorah, dragon (in the most pathetic way possible) and Missandei. That brings her on the edge of sanity... well, okay, she thinks Jon betrayed her. She's lost and alone, I buy it (yet it wasn't presented really well). But why the hell they made her burn innocent people? Her entire journey was about fighting for a better world. Freeing the slaves, to commiserate with disadventaged and poor. I get it, they were Lannister's people...

I mean, nope. It simply has no sense. It just a sloppy writing. They run out of ideas. And Jon is the greatest confirmation to that. Since season 7 his character serves solely a plot device purpose, to push the Dany's metamorphosis. Not really sure why you can't see it's just lame writing. It would be something entirely different if her maddness deepened through 2 seasons. Or at least an entire 1 season. But it happened so drastically, it just feels fake. She looks at the Red Keep - you think she goes for Cersei - you're okay with the personal revange. But she burns civils - well, fuck it, I have nothing to lose. Nonsense.

[ohwell]

Anyone else think Arya actually died? I’ve been thinking about that horse, and how much it looks like that Golden Company’s dudes. It’s odd that they showed a scene of it dying, then Arya sees a horse that looks just like it and rides it out. Makes me think her and the horse are in the afterlife and maybe she did become Death.

If you know a spoiler, don’t tell me. I want to be surprised.

Also in digging, Tywin had a white horse and that would be way more fitting that it was his.

[Okacz]

And again, to me there is a big difference between burning the red keep and burning the city.
She wanted to fly to the keep and burn it before, she could have done so now and it would have been in line with your actions and words.

Instead she burns the entire city.

Thing is, at least in my opinion, Daenerys didn't think that at this point just burning Cersei would win her the throne.

She thought that when she came to Westeros, just a dragon attack and it's done, she can become the rightful queen. But right now, her situation has shifted drastically, and she no longer believes that "just" destroying the Red Keep would do the trick. She has a worse claim to the throne, she doesn't have the army she used to. She is actually scared that Jon Snow is the rightful king, the last Targaryen in line. If they defeat Cersei in her war, she isn't going to rule - he is. Therefore, to become the queen, she cannot just be "taking back what's hers". She needs to scare and intimidate people to give it to her. Conquer, if you will.

That's why the "madness" isn't a part of the whole deal, it's a calculated act. For the first time she needs to actually choose between innocent peoples lives and well being - and her "destiny" to rule Westeros. She chose the latter.

[korijenkins]

I couldn't agree with you more.

I feel like the Night King should have been the final fight. The show feels different knowing the great ancient evil is dead.

I always liked how everyone was so focused on the Iron Throne when the Night King could careless who sits on the throne and will kill everyone regardless.

They rushed this season at the great expense of quality unfortunately.

If it makes you feel any better at all, the White Walkers ARE indeed going to be the final fight in the books, with the Iron Throne nonsense taking place as part of an epilogue. At least, that's how it makes the most sense, and GRRM is very vocal about wanting to have his own version of the "Scouring of the Shire" which would fit this perfectly.

The mistake came when the dumbass showrunners decided to spread what will likely be 1 or two chapters in a book concerning EVERYONE over the course of 3 episodes all the while never building up this "madness" Daenerys had within her, or at least making it believable that she snapped due to all her losses.

Remember, this was a woman who imprisoned her own dragons because 1 accidentally killed a child, ordered an entire khalasar to stop raping and slaughtering women so she could spare them, liberated hundreds of thousands of slaves from bondage in the east, and went north with her entire army to aid people she didn't know.

Even to the end they never gave us any sign of true insanity like what we saw. There was no buildup in season 7 (her executing two idiots whose lives were legally forfeit anyway does not count) and no real buildup in season 8.

They needed more episodes for this to be believable, and the epilogue would've worked as a final portion of the show. Also it's worth noting that HBO was willing to give them the required (yes required, far too many characters to shorten) 10 episodes for the final two seasons, but Dumb and Dumber said no.

- - - Updated - - -

Compared to her previous actions, yeah, it was a giant leap. But perhaps not her intentions.

Daenerys, believing in her destiny and right to rule like she is, had to be seriously convinced not to just fly to Red Keep and burn things to the ground. Tyrion was the one making sure she doesn't do that since season 6 I think. At the first thought, she wanted to straight up attack KL with her dragons, but was held back, controlled by her advisors, allies and Jon Snow. She decided to do what they all suggested, steadily gather allies, negotiate with Cersei, help with the northern threat.

Guess what, her advisors plans failed her and did cost her a dragon or two. Helping with Zombies caused half her army to dissappear. Her allies were gone, one by one, due to Cersei outmanouvering her.

I don't see it as a giant leap of logic that in the decisive point Daenerys stops listening to the voices that, so far, caused her only losses, and listens to her instincts she came to Westeos with. Especially since she realised that right now that she and Jon Snow swapped places, and she is actually helping HIM to get the throne.

Burning civilians alive gains her nothing. Your argument is invalid.

[Okacz]

Burning civilians alive gains her nothing. Your argument is invalid.

It makes other civilians never really consider angering or questioning the legitimacy of the new queen, doesn't it?

[Jayma]

It makes other civilians never really consider angering or questioning the legitimacy of the new queen, doesn't it?

Yes, the 10 civilians still alive will respect her as queen.

[Jastall]

It makes other civilians never really consider angering or questioning the legitimacy of the new queen, doesn't it?

Since when do they matter? Unless you're Cercei-tier of stupid and give them power, the commoners can do little against their liege lords.

What this does, is ensure no one will ever surrender to Dany, because she will burn you to death regardless. She emboldened her potential enemies more than anything.

[Aurrora]

It makes other civilians never really consider angering or questioning the legitimacy of the new queen, doesn't it?

A queen that by necessity is going to have to employ those civilians to do everything for her by virtue of her followers from Essos being a non-renewable resource(despite that fact that they seem to respawn every week). Unless she's never climbing down off her dragon there's no way she's not getting assassinated by a cook or a chamber maid.

Burning the civilians of a surrendered city doesn't make people fear questioning her right to rule, it makes people fear allowing her to continue to exist.

[draynay]

The Lannister army sacked the city, murdered and raped as they pleased, and they seemed to come out of it OK.

[Shadowferal]

Lannister army didn't have a WMD.

[xcess]

It makes other civilians never really consider angering or questioning the legitimacy of the new queen, doesn't it?

Cersei didnt have to do that and they feared her

[Shadowferal]

Tyrion: "If Mereen succeeds...a city without slavery is a city without masters. It proves that no one needs a master."

Daenerys: "Good."

Amazing how things change.

[Rhlor]

much better

[Okacz]

Cersei didnt have to do that and they feared her

Cersei was crowned in a weird way in the series. Even if, she had it easier, having strong influence within the city, decent claim to the throne (mostly due to everyone else being dead) and, well, no one left to question her. She seized the throne by an equal mix of power, opportunity and claim.

Dany has none of those. That's why she needs a show of force to scare off all the pretenders and establish rule that no one would dare to question. It's not just the civilians, if Dany sat on the throne after peacefully taking the city she has Jon who (she believes) could always take it away from her. She legitimized bastard of Robert, who, to be honest, has better claim right now than them both. And while the show is all over the place when it comes to other regions, it's probably a matter of time since the Reach, the Vale or Westerlands would defy a queen that conquered the throne on the back of the North, and is really little more than a foreign invader.

I'm not saying her actions were right or even, well, smart, but such a show of force is definitely what Aegon did when he first came to Westeros, he scared all other regions into submission, minus Dorne. She might be taking it half a step further, but that's basically it.

[ablock87]

Her actions and statements all lead to where we're at now.

You've got to overlook all the warning signs to try and make this argument. She's been promising blood and ashes since Season 2, burning people alive throughout, you don't get to claim it's out of character when she follows through on all that, taking the next step on the same path she's been walking this entire show.

There were no warning signs. Every single instance of her burning someone has been because they are either truly evil people or they have done her wrong. Every one. You MIGHT make an exception with when she burned the Meereenese noblemen, but everything she did came from a good place.

If her arc involved some more actual grey area, this could have been great. She needed more drama with her council where they go "This is morally wrong." Her heel turn is just not done right at all, and the vast majority of fans are in agreement. I'm not going to argue how killing evil slavemasters that mutilate little boys and crucify little girls is somehow proper foreshadowing for the mass murder of tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of innocents.

[Endus]

There were no warning signs. Every single instance of her burning someone has been because they are either truly evil people or they have done her wrong. Every one. You MIGHT make an exception with when she burned the Meereenese noblemen, but everything she did came from a good place.

That you're doing terrible things to terrible people does not excuse you doing terrible things.

If you were applauding her this whole time, then you were applauding a tyrant's baby steps.

Nearly everything she did was a neon blinking warning sign. You just liked it.

It's like the an analogy I drew with the show Dexter. Dexter targeted and killed other serial killers. He was still a psychotic serial killer who was feeding his urges and getting pleasure out of torturing and killing people. He was no a hero. Anyone watching that show and thinking he was, was wrong.

There's a difference between "hero" and "protagonist".