Unfortunate Implications with Sylvanas

[Shefu]

Why would they ever stop?

You're right! Some folks will just never grow up!

[Skytotem]

You're right! Some folks will just never grow up!

Because either Sylvanas is evil or Blizz wrote a story where working for the Totalitarian dictator who burned children alive was the right choice.

[Tarba]

Because either Sylvanas is evil or Blizz wrote a story where working for the Totalitarian dictator who burned children alive was the right choice.

Well if you are horde, your capital was named in honor of someone who did this.

[Combatbutler]

Well if you are horde, your capital was named in honor of someone who did this.

More than once, one might add

[Sharby]

I do think it is pretty sad that blizz has made the hordes characters so unpalatable to the horde playerbase

I mean tbh there isn't really a way to write any of WoW's characters without pissing off one group or another.

--> You write them war-oriented and you have folks like me get annoyed because it usually comes on the tail-end of working together to defeat a big bad.

--> You write them peace-oriented and you have folks like some people here who scratch their head in frustration because both side have committed so many crimes against each other it isn't logical to be peaceful.


The story is in a big ditch rn and the only way to enjoy it is hope that what you want is what Blizzard favors or just ignore it altogether. I don't think the writers are skilled enough to dig it out without massive changes.

[Aeula]

I’m really hoping for a redemption arc. She (And more importantly the Horde) is fucked either way but at least the fallout from the redemption would be funny.

[PaladinBash]

She's going to get her stupid Kerrigan moment. You all know it. Fucking Grom got to say "DRAENOR IS FREEEEEEEEEEE" after, you know, he kinda started all the bullshit that happened himself and when Yrel tries to stop the Orcs from doing it all over again, they're the poor victims and the Light is "just as bad" for opposing it. That kind of wank is where we're going, it's obvious. Illidan gets a pass but the Scarlet Crusade don't. Sylvanas is going to get redeemed, the Horde are going to be dindu nuffins and the dark side of Elune is going to have corrupted Tyrande and she'll be TOTALLY EVIL for actually wanting to do something about the Horde.

[Mehrunes]

More than once, one might add

And Thrall saw nothing wrong with naming the capital after him, even though he settled Orgrimmar in a shithole because he wanted Orcs to atone for the things they did under Orgrim. A true genius of Orc-kind right there. No wonder his wisdom is the golden, inviolable standard of the Horde.

[Combatbutler]

And Thrall saw nothing wrong with naming the capital after him, even though he settled Orgrimmar in a shithole because he wanted Orcs to atone for the things they did under Orgrim. A true genius of Orc-kind right there. No wonder his wisdom is the golden, inviolable standard of the Horde.

It is just typical orc fashion, they never really look critical at the past, they glorify it. Playing down the shitty parts and then wonder how the next generation is so hungry for war.

[Evaddon]

It really was not proactive, it was a shock value tactic which has failed by every metric

Moreover, morally wrong IS villainous

Eh debatable, the Kaldorei held a strong resistance in Ashenvale and Darkshore for years on a continent that is primarily Horde dominated which was close enough in proximity to a large Azerite deposit in Silithus and off the coast of Feralas. Strategically it makes sense to remove the enemy, instead of trying to live along side of them don't you think? Furthermore it wasn't really the plan until Saurfang let Malfurion go, the plan was to drop their leaders head at their feet and break them. Holding them hostage so the Alliance wouldn't be likely to counter attack with their allies imprisoned.And shock factor yes, but also a statement not to fuck with Sylvanas, she has a willingness like none of our Warchiefs have before...even Garrosh!

And to conclude, morals don't make a person good or bad, villainous or a hero. Sometimes you have to make a point, sometimes you have to fight back by whatever means necessary. Peoples "morals" fuck up more then people that have a willingness to do what is necessary. Look at our world. Peoples morals are taking us back years in progression in some states in the US. Morals don't make you right, it just means you have an opinion or belief not necessarily good for the whole but something you see as right or...wrong depends on the side.

(Now this is all to say I have ignored all 8.2 spoilers)

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Now I'm not saying "The Burning of Teldrassil" was the best course of action, it was questionable and rash as I said. But her goal was sensible. Other then that act I really haven't seen her or The Horde do anything to bad but fight a war, which is never going to be a good clean thing

[Skytotem]

I’m really hoping for a redemption arc. She (And more importantly the Horde) is fucked either way but at least the fallout from the redemption would be funny.

Implications from that are a unpalatable to me, the right thing to do is burn children alive for our Orwellian dictator?

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Eh debatable, the Kaldorei held a strong resistance in Ashenvale and Darkshore for years on a continent that is primarily Horde dominated which was close enough in proximity to a large Azerite deposit in Silithus and off the coast of Feralas. Strategically it makes sense to remove the enemy, instead of trying to live along side of them don't you think? Furthermore it wasn't really the plan until Saurfang let Malfurion go, the plan was to drop their leaders head at their feet and break them. Holding them hostage so the Alliance wouldn't be likely to counter attack with their allies imprisoned.And shock factor yes, but also a statement not to fuck with Sylvanas, she has a willingness like none of our Warchiefs have before...even Garrosh!

And to conclude, morals don't make a person good or bad, villainous or a hero. Sometimes you have to make a point, sometimes you have to fight back by whatever means necessary. Peoples "morals" fuck up more then people that have a willingness to do what is necessary. Look at our world. Peoples morals are taking us back years in progression in some states in the US. Morals don't make you right, it just means you have an opinion or belief not necessarily good for the whole but something you see as right or...wrong depends on the side.

(Now this is all to say I have ignored all 8.2 spoilers)

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Now I'm not saying "The Burning of Teldrassil" was the best course of action, it was questionable and rash as I said. But her goal was sensible. Other then that act I really haven't seen her or The Horde do anything to bad but fight a war, which is never going to be a good clean thing

Ill type up a proper reply when I'm home, but you're confusing morals with values

An immoral person is by definition a bad person

[Thetruth1400]

They won't kill her or let her become a villain.... she will be redeemed.

That's even worse. "Oh she was so aware of things that she saw 10 steps ahead. Her deeds seemed unhinged and villainous, but we swear they aren't! Don't look at all the horrible things she did, just look at the end result only where she did 1 good thing, that's what she did all those horrible things for!"

[cparle87]

Well have a good think here, are there any good forsaken? Like ones that make the world a better place?Or are they all just disgusting corpses doomed to be a carrion race and abominations?

From the beginning, yes there are.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Leonid_Barthalomew

Also as of Cata there's this guy, who foresaw Sylvanas going off the deep end and quit her for the Argent Crusade.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Argent_Apothecary_Judkins

[Skytotem]

From the beginning, yes there are.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Leonid_Barthalomew

Also as of Cata there's this guy, who foresaw Sylvanas going off the deep end and quit her for the Argent Crusade.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Argent_Apothecary_Judkins

If they're leaving the Forsaken for the argents they're not really forsaken are they?

This is part of what bugs me about BFA we are seeing so little of the nelfs and Forsaken as a people outside of Voss and the squad in Nazmir

Just Nathanos and BARELY Sylv herself

[cparle87]

If they're leaving the Forsaken for the argents they're not really forsaken are they?

This is part of what bugs me about BFA we are seeing so little of the nelfs and Forsaken as a people outside of Voss and the squad in Nazmir

Just Nathanos and BARELY Sylv herself

I wasn't sure if you meant Forsaken as in part of Sylvanas' faction, or forsaken as in free-willed independent undead so I thought I'd throw them out.

[Vakna]

What really gets me is that when you start a new Forsaken character you spend like an hour running around hearing about how the Forsaken are a great free people who rose up again oppressors and that free will is the cornerstone of Forsaken society.

Then you get to endgame and it's all raising armies against their will and "all will serve me in undeath". Excuse me but I didn't sign up for this?

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And Thrall saw nothing wrong with naming the capital after him, even though he settled Orgrimmar in a shithole because he wanted Orcs to atone for the things they did under Orgrim. A true genius of Orc-kind right there. No wonder his wisdom is the golden, inviolable standard of the Horde.

First of all, if you played Warcraft 3 at all you would know that is absolutely not his intentions.

Secondly, Orgrimmar is literally built right next to a fucking coast and a huge freshwater river. Are you really telling me that all the Horde's druids and mages are so shit at their craft that they can't work with these two massive resources and create literally miles of farmland? Maybe the Horde should stop focusing on resources by conquest and look at what they can do with this extremely valuable stretch of land.

[Soon-TM]

That's even worse. "Oh she was so aware of things that she saw 10 steps ahead. Her deeds seemed unhinged and villainous, but we swear they aren't! Don't look at all the horrible things she did, just look at the end result only where she did 1 good thing, that's what she did all those horrible things for!"

Well, that's pretty much what they did with Illidank, just with some extra bells and whistles this time.

[Skytotem]

I wasn't sure if you meant Forsaken as in part of Sylvanas' faction, or forsaken as in free-willed independent undead so I thought I'd throw them out.

Oh, my apologies, i'm not the person you were quoting, I'm just venting on how I think the Forsaken and Horde have been mishandled over the years.

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Eh debatable, the Kaldorei held a strong resistance in Ashenvale and Darkshore for years on a continent that is primarily Horde dominated which was close enough in proximity to a large Azerite deposit in Silithus and off the coast of Feralas. Strategically it makes sense to remove the enemy, instead of trying to live along side of them don't you think? Furthermore it wasn't really the plan until Saurfang let Malfurion go, the plan was to drop their leaders head at their feet and break them. Holding them hostage so the Alliance wouldn't be likely to counter attack with their allies imprisoned.And shock factor yes, but also a statement not to fuck with Sylvanas, she has a willingness like none of our Warchiefs have before...even Garrosh!

And to conclude, morals don't make a person good or bad, villainous or a hero. Sometimes you have to make a point, sometimes you have to fight back by whatever means necessary. Peoples "morals" fuck up more then people that have a willingness to do what is necessary. Look at our world. Peoples morals are taking us back years in progression in some states in the US. Morals don't make you right, it just means you have an opinion or belief not necessarily good for the whole but something you see as right or...wrong depends on the side.

(Now this is all to say I have ignored all 8.2 spoilers)

- - - Updated - - -

Now I'm not saying "The Burning of Teldrassil" was the best course of action, it was questionable and rash as I said. But her goal was sensible. Other then that act I really haven't seen her or The Horde do anything to bad but fight a war, which is never going to be a good clean thing

Alright proper reply time.


First of all I'll say that Sylvanas starting the war over azerite was stupid to begin with, War is the continuation of politics by other means. Sylvanas doesn't WANT peace with the Alliance though she wants Stormwind dead so she can raise everyone. She doesn't even want stability and prosperity for the Forsaken or Horde, she wants them dependent on her personally, all of her characterization in Edge of Night and Before the Storm point to this. Think of Palpatine in Star Wars, he rigged the Empire to implode if he died cause he didn't care about it, it was a tool for him.

The Horde can and should be more than the well maintained weapon of an orwellian dictator who would kill everything and everyone in it for a shot at immortality cause she got sent to spooky Saronite hell when she tried to kill herself.

The Horde hasn't had any resource issues since Cata/MoP timeframe so this isn't a war for the Orcs survival, we don't NEED ashenvale, and using up Azerite when the planet is dying is STUPID. Sylvanas was explicitly told this in Silithus.

Moreover, it was dumb of Saurfang to go along with the idea to try to "Break" the Alliance because he's a veteran of the Second War and he saw what happened THE LAST TIME we tried that with Lothar. It didn't work for the Horde THEN why would it work now?

And on top of all that, between the holding of hostages, and the death of one of two incredibly ancient nelf leaders, which is more likely to inspire stupidly deadly vengeance, and which is more likely to inspire negotiations (which was the goal) Because frankly, all burning the tree did was escalate the war and it didn't make the Alliance 'sloppy' outside of bad writing that they suddenly forgot about the blight and gas masks. By ANY reasonable metric of storytelling, Sylvanas should be an unpopular leader because she led the Horde into a stupid and costly war for the nebulous reason of "Well I guess we'll go to war again eventually right?"

Especially when her argument is "peace is impossible after all the hate" when Forsaken, Belfs, and Orcs all work together despite their history from WC2, Sylvanas comes across as paranoid and hypocritical in the novella and it's bad writing that Saurfang goes along with it.

I would LOVE to hear what morals you think take us backwards, because you're confusing Morals With Values/Beliefs. Thinking Vaccines cause autism isn't a moral. Thinking Genocide is EVIL is a moral.

Finally, Sylvanas is stupid-evil because she KNOWS what kind of culture she's running. Being Indifferent to the suffering you cause in the pursuit of your goals and indifferent to the morals of people who work under you? THAT is stupid because it's a recipe for forming the very kind of rebellion and internal division we're seeing now.

[cparle87]

Oh, my apologies, i'm not the person you were quoting, I'm just venting on how I think the Forsaken and Horde have been mishandled over the years.

Ah it's cool. Forsaken seems to me to have two uses. When you capitalize it you're talking about the members of the faction. When you don't you're referring to the "race" of free willed undead. Take Derek Proudmoore, for instance. He's a forsaken, but Sylvanas flat out says he's not a Forsaken with rights, just a tool. Which is part of why I agree with Baine and what he did. Since the Forsaken used to be all about free will and "it's your undead life, do with it what you want."

[Skytotem]

Sylvanas flat out says he's not a Forsaken with rights, just a tool.

Where's she say that?