Beta Feedback so far.

[sunwrathmother]

I dont have an invite yet but I m sure some of you reading this have one.

What do we know so far?
I know its early but I thought we can sum up some things like armour values, damage values for classes ect.
I hear very contradicting feedback for example some people say that armour is a lot lower in beta for all classes (and that will impact tanking specs), while some claim the exact opposite (making armour tanking classes like bear form extremely powerful).

[Oncereborn]

I've come across a bug where I didn't get an invite yet

[Fascinate]

I dont have an invite yet but I m sure some of you reading this have one.

What do we know so far?
I know its early but I thought we can sum up some things like armour values, damage values for classes ect.
I hear very contradicting feedback for example some people say that armour is a lot lower in beta for all classes (and that will impact tanking specs), while some claim the exact opposite (making armour tanking classes like bear form extremely powerful).

A lot lower compared to what?

Before you start to make any comparisons you need to recognize that blizzard has a reference 1.12 client with all the correct values, while bugs can and will pop up from integrating that data into WoW's modern code reader lets not pretend for a second that you should be comparing anything to private servers.

The only real way to do this is looking back at videos/forums/data sheets from 2006 world of warcraft and doing comparisons, or trusting the memories of a select few who were balls deep into Wow in that era.

[sunwrathmother]

The real question is how far all these values are from private servers.
Lets be honest. We have 14 years of experience on private server data and that was our current bet.
All those influencers that got key are ps junkies and they have tested things there pretty extensively.
We know ps didnt have all the numbers right.
So the deal is how far off were the values of the most bliz-like private servers, from the actual true values of vanilla (now tested in Beta).

[sunwrathmother]

And there's your next problem. Try to get people to agree on what "most blizz-like" means.
Or realize it's actually completely irrelevant metric that no one should care about. This is Blizzard's code. Not "most blizz-like" pserver.

It's just the normal influencer flatulence.

Damn! I m only trying to get some insight of what awaits us in Classic! PS data is our only recent reference point we have!

Damn Beta key!

[TheRealDavidTwo]

Only feedback I can give: HD character models. People are going to ask for them. So why not give the option to atleast toggle them on/off for those that want it and for those that may not.

Or-.. is that going to be messy since they're probably using old character animations?

[Denizly]

I second the "forget PS data" stance. Don't know why are people so hell bent on those armor / resi values, do you wanna pick your class based on that or what?

We both know classic will be theorycrafted to death, and before launch day there will be BIS comps and BIS spec lists out there. If that is so important to you for your class choice, just wait it out, it's coming 100%.

Again I really wanna know why are those numbers so important to people. Not throwing shade / hate here, just curious.

[Murthag]

Only feedback I can give: HD character models. People are going to ask for them. So why not give the option to atleast toggle them on/off for those that want it and for those that may not.

Or-.. is that going to be messy since they're probably using old character animations?

If I remember correctly we still had the old animation in WoD, the new combat ones came in Legion. But I will prefer they don't add the new char model to be sincere.

[Bluespiderman57]

Only feedback I can give: HD character models. People are going to ask for them. So why not give the option to atleast toggle them on/off for those that want it and for those that may not.

Or-.. is that going to be messy since they're probably using old character animations?

I think it had more to do with the new character models not working with the old gear skins. I may be wrong about that though.

[TheRealDavidTwo]

I mean I'll still play regardless. I joined in TBC so I only got like.. a really half-butted glimpse of whatever was left from Vanilla... which wasn't too much at that point.

[chazus]

The real question is how far all these values are from private servers.
Lets be honest. We have 14 years of experience on private server data and that was our current bet.
All those influencers that got key are ps junkies and they have tested things there pretty extensively.
We know ps didnt have all the numbers right.
So the deal is how far off were the values of the most bliz-like private servers, from the actual true values of vanilla (now tested in Beta).

I don't understand this statement. Why are we asking "How far off from fake data are we?"

[EnclosedOne]

I can't help but roll my eyes at the idiots for thinking classic was going to be like pservers who were usually notoriously off with their numbers because they had to guess. Blizz has the numbers from vanilla so their math isn't wrong, its just people remembering things wrong given vanilla was 15yrs ago now

just goes to show that even when blizz tries their best to give us what we want there is still a buttload of people out there bitching that have zero actual clue as to what they're talking about

im not gonna watch anyone stream beta, i'm gonna play it when it comes out and only then will i decide if its a game that's worth my time/money

[Fascinate]

The real question is how far all these values are from private servers.
Lets be honest. We have 14 years of experience on private server data and that was our current bet.
All those influencers that got key are ps junkies and they have tested things there pretty extensively.
We know ps didnt have all the numbers right.
So the deal is how far off were the values of the most bliz-like private servers, from the actual true values of vanilla (now tested in Beta).

I think it suffice to say the meta's will not be matching up to private servers, i have been telling people this for months with nothing but pushback from the ps community on this forum and here we are with me right.....yet again.

Basically forget everything you have learned on those servers in regards to data and go into classic with a fresh view on whats good and what isnt One example i can give is i raided with a feral druid in 1.12 who could hang with rogues that were slightly lower geared than him, im not sure how ferals are looked at on PS'ers but i got a feeling they will be better on classic than what you know. Im not saying this is going to be true for all hybrids, the above is just an example.

[sunwrathmother]

I second the "forget PS data" stance. Don't know why are people so hell bent on those armor / resi values, do you wanna pick your class based on that or what?

Again I really wanna know why are those numbers so important to people. Not throwing shade / hate here, just curious.

Because it will affect their character/class creation. People that follow PS theorycrafting are used to a different gameplay and they need to know how much the current METa is going to change.

I don't understand this statement. Why are we asking "How far off from fake data are we?"

Because it is a reference point whether you like it or not.

I can't help but roll my eyes at the idiots for thinking classic was going to be like pservers who were usually notoriously off with their numbers because they had to guess. Blizz has the numbers from vanilla so their math isn't wrong, its just people remembering things wrong given vanilla was 15yrs ago now

just goes to show that even when blizz tries their best to give us what we want there is still a buttload of people out there bitching that have zero actual clue as to what they're talking about

im not gonna watch anyone stream beta, i'm gonna play it when it comes out and only then will i decide if its a game that's worth my time/money

I dont play in PS but most of my friends do. We all know the numbers are not 100% right, but they are close. How close is a matter of debate and now we r gonna ll find out.
So I dont understand why you call ppl that play in PS "idiots who think its like classic".
Your comment sounds almost ironic coming from you who probably never played vanilla. As you stated, you will first try classic and then you will decide if its worth it. People that played vanilla back in the day, already know what to expect.

For me (playing since 2005) that actually raided in vanilla, it is more than nostalgia. I m facinated by the amount of theorycrafting that has been done in private servers and I am very curious to see if this holds true in classic as well. I am very interested to see how different the game will feel and play out now after all those years, how classes will interract and how raids composition will hold up to the challenge of the new generation of players pushing classes to their limits.

[Veggie50]

Because it will affect their character/class creation. People that follow PS theorycrafting are used to a different gameplay and they need to know how much the current METa is going to change.



Because it is a reference point whether you like it or not.



I dont play in PS but most of my friends do. We all know the numbers are not 100% right, but they are close. How close is a matter of debate and now we r gonna ll find out.
So I dont understand why you call ppl that play in PS "idiots who think its like classic".
Your comment sounds almost ironic coming from you who probably never played vanilla. As you stated, you will first try classic and then you will decide if its worth it. People that played vanilla back in the day, already know what to expect.

For me (playing since 2005) that actually raided in vanilla, it is more than nostalgia. I m facinated by the amount of theorycrafting that has been done in private servers and I am very curious to see if this holds true in classic as well. I am very interested to see how different the game will feel and play out now after all those years, how classes will interract and how raids composition will hold up to the challenge of the new generation of players pushing classes to their limits.

The thing is, the idea that the ps metrics "are close" is an assumption. They could well be way off.

That's really why private servers are a poor reference point. Private servers have been criticized for getting many values (wildly) wrong. Having said that though, I don't think your intention is to get to the "true values", but to find out how different classic will be from a ps experience. That's valid I suppose.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I mean even the best pserver admins said point blank they basically had zero data on a lot of values and just threw numbers in or got numbers from people that did. Granted they did extensive testing and adjustments to make it feel as close as possible but it was all based on feel from something that happened many years in the past. Honestly they did the best they could and likely did alright considering the circumstances. But needless to say a guess is still a guess. Blizzard is pulling right off an old database. Of course it is going to have table conversion issues going into a new system and undoubtedly some bugs on top of it but the data should be sound once these things get more ironed out.

[Bigbazz]

I can't help but roll my eyes at the idiots for thinking classic was going to be like pservers who were usually notoriously off with their numbers because they had to guess

I keep seeing this and I have to say it's a very misinformed view. The information for most of this stuff has been long documented and known down to the exact formula since since Vanilla was current, they don't "have to guess" on very much of anything at all in the context of this discussion. The things they "have to guess" mostly boils down to recreating scripting and other more complex elements, recreating special procs/effects on items, recreating specific item/ability interactions. Things like armor, hp/mana regen rates, the hit table, attackpower/spell power conversions, attackpower normalisation + weapon speed and other various things are very basic and well known, and are based on simple solutions.

Private servers in many elements are probably currently more accurate than Classic beta, because Blizzard is still working through all the kinks while the private servers have had years of development to get through them. That's not to say private servers aren't very flawed, but on matters of the basics like this they are not guessing anything, the real differences are much more complex problems that wouldn't surface until players are deeper into the game.

[Trend]

I keep seeing this and I have to say it's a very misinformed view. The information for most of this stuff has been long documented and known down to the exact formula since since Vanilla was current, they don't "have to guess" on very much of anything at all in the context of this discussion. The things they "have to guess" mostly boils down to recreating scripting and other more complex elements, recreating special procs/effects on items, recreating specific item/ability interactions. Things like armor, hp/mana regen rates, the hit table, attackpower/spell power conversions, attackpower normalisation + weapon speed and other various things are very basic and well known, and are based on simple solutions.

Private servers in many elements are probably currently more accurate than Classic beta, because Blizzard is still working through all the kinks while the private servers have had years of development to get through them. That's not to say private servers aren't very flawed, but on matters of the basics like this they are not guessing anything, the real differences are much more complex problems that wouldn't surface until players are deeper into the game.

Oh really? Can you point me to the documentation for the server-side formulas then? I didn't realize Blizzard released those to the public. I would like to see them.

It does seem odd that you are contradicting what creators of pirate servers have said, but whatever. Maybe you are smarter than they are.

It's also odd that people who are saying things are wrong come from pirate servers and the people who are in beta who never played pirated versions thinks it is very true to the original. To a reasonable person that makes sense because Blizzard has the original data and formulas never released to the public (contrary to what you're trying to claim) and that's what they're using.

I would say it is pretty clear that you don't understand how software works and what Blizzard would have the pirate server creators would not have access to.

[Bigbazz]

Oh really? Can you point me to the documentation for the server-side formulas then? I didn't realize Blizzard released those to the public. I would like to see them.

It does seem odd that you are contradicting what creators of pirate servers have said, but whatever. Maybe you are smarter than they are.

It's also odd that people who are saying things are wrong come from pirate servers and the people who are in beta who never played pirated versions thinks it is very true to the original. To a reasonable person that makes sense because Blizzard has the original data and formulas never released to the public (contrary to what you're trying to claim) and that's what they're using.

I would say it is pretty clear that you don't understand how software works and what Blizzard would have the pirate server creators would not have access to.

Please show me where I'm contradicting what private server developers have said? I get the feeling from your posts that you're not a theorycrafter (nor do you know anything about private server development or bug fixing), that you've not delved into that world where developers and addon creators/theorycrafters have always had a back and forth relationship. Or do you believe that all theorycrafting is based on "purely made up guesswork"?

The majority of theorycrafting stuff is reverse engineered in game, as in they figure out the formula from the ingame numbers themselves and it gets documented, tested and confirmed. A lot of it is a two way street between players and blizzard developers too. I think that I have to explain this means you're outside the theorycrafting community and you're going to play hardball asking for me to dig up something to please you, which I'm obviously not going to do.

If you want to do your own research you would understand why these "Oh its a private server so it must be wrong" are just as bad (if not worse than) those saying "it's a vanilla private server so it must be right".

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Normalization
https://vanilla-wow.fandom.com/wiki/Hit
https://vanilla-wow.fandom.com/wiki/Spirit
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Armor

Many sources list this basic information, nobody is needing to "guess" the basics that have been well documented and known since Vanilla, with every change and variation also documented and understood.


Edit : And you could for example take those numbers from Vanilla, dump it into a spreadsheet to say calculate armor/damage reduction and then apply the results of those numbers and compare to a private server and see "oh my, they are correct".. Or you could swing at a boss on a private server and collect data, then use the armor formula combine with the ability formulas and your characters stats and calculate accurately the armor of that boss based on the damage dealt, and compare back to vanilla numbers and find that your vanillla numbers and vanilla formulas are correct.

Theorycrafting works, nobody is making shit up out of thin air with the basics.

[Escepticus]

The real question is how far all these values are from private servers.
.

Who cares?