Can we get one thing straight about the introduction of pathfinder?

[Otimus]

OP can be as cynical as he wants to but he is wrong. They added pathfinder becasue people would fly over stuff, drop in on the objective, complete it and fly off to the next without engaging everything devs wanted you to engage with on the way there. This does two things, it allows players to ignore a lot of what was created, and it allows them to move through content much faster.

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And then if they didn't people would be up in arms becasue they blew through content too fast. There needs to be a balance becasue content cannot be mde faster than layers can consume. Built in slowdown has to be there somehow.

There doesn't need to be a balance at all. No consumer should actively want that. Artificial restraints to make you spend more money longer. There's only one because Blizzard wants you to pay that $15 a month for more months. It's the core ethos of pay-for-play gaming. Every factor is designed in a way in which they can draw things out as long as possible to make more money off of you. You're trying to word it like they're doing someone a favor, and that's weird. They're doing it 100% for themselves. I'm not attacking them for it, people gotta eat and such, it's just the way it works. It'd be entirely illogical to expect such a business model to do otherwise. Just don't try and gussy it up or hide behind "But people complain!".

[Kataroku]

Show your proof. You are the one claiming something I and others don't recall every hearing or reading. Whit I posted is what devs have been saing since the discussion of removing flying came up.

Here are some of the bug reports from the 6.2.2 PTR.

[Tarba]

There doesn't need to be a balance at all. No consumer should actively want that. Artificial restraints to make you spend more money longer. There's only one because Blizzard wants you to pay that $15 a month for more months. It's the core ethos of pay-for-play gaming. Every factor is designed in a way in which they can draw things out as long as possible to make more money off of you. You're trying to word it like they're doing someone a favor, and that's weird. They're doing it 100% for themselves. I'm not attacking them for it, people gotta eat and such, it's just the way it works. It'd be entirely illogical to expect such a business model to do otherwise. Just don't try and gussy it up or hide behind "But people complain!".

Never heard about game design I guess. Or to much used to pay2win games. Or those mobile game where the ia control your character.
It"s like in war3, where you were forced to gather ressources to make units then had to MOVE THEM throught the map to reach enemy base.
Those damn money milkers! Just so game testers would not say that the games were to short! WE KNOW THE TRUTH!

[Dhrizzle]

No one complained about flight in TBC.

Loads of people complained aboutg flight in TBC.

No one complained about flight in WotLK.

I complained about flight in WotLK because it made the dailies into a mindless chore and far inferior to the ones on Isle of Quel'danas.

No one complained about flight in Cataclysm.

I complained about flight in Cataclysm because it was one factor in why the questing was so unsatisfying in the leveling content.

No one complained about flight in MoP.

Lots of people complained about how terrible the wall-of-dailies rep grind was and flight was a factor in that. There was also a lot of praise for the no-flying islands added towards the end.

In WoD, suddenly, flight was a problem..

Flight was never the problem: WoD was..

I think you've made the mistake of confusing your opinions with the opinions of everyone else and the game developers.

It's all about content streching, always has been, always will be.

See that wasn't even a full line on most screens.

Whether or not you can fly has no bearing on how far Blizzard can stretch the content. Compare MoP which had flight from the start and had people complaining about the daily quest/rep-grind being stretched too far and WoD which had no flight but people were still complaining about having nothing to do due to tight restrictions and minimal rewards on the daily content.

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designing a world to use flying is so much nicer.

instead, corporatist cost cutting has been enabled by these pathetic idiots talking about world pvp.

but, might as well just fucking move on op. nothing's going to change. or maybe it will, when all of these goddamned mongrels fuck off to classic and quit shitting up live.

How exactly have your "corporatist" boogie-men cut costs by limiting flight until later in the expansion?

[Aquinan]

You literally can't make me read this.

Then ....don't? Why did you even bother replying?

[Dhrizzle]

This isn't a thread about pro / anti flight. My post was to point out the reason why we lost flight in the first place.

Too many people repeat the rhetoric that Blizzard did this for the player's benefit, which isn't true.

I'm setting the record straight.

No you're not, your trying to peddle bullshit objective reasons for the change because you can't handle the fact people have different subjective opinions to you. As far as I'm concerned the world content since they restricted flight at the start of the content has been much more fun and engaging than the old-style dailies we had with WotLK, Cata and MoP.

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Pretty much this. Almost all of the game is designed in ways to get you to play longer, so you pay longer.
They just got much more blatant and brazen about the last three or so expansions. They can sit there and do it right in front of your face, and why would they care? People are going to pay them anyways. They know it.

Bollocks, the game has become increasingly more casual friendly so you can play for a month or so then unsub until the next content patch.

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Blizzard did not say it would be added later, they said they had NO PLAN to add flying in wod, but then the player base freaked out, and so they added pathfinder

this bullshit lie people keep spewing that they said there would be flying, then suddenly said there WAS NOT going to be flying was made up by a few people angry that they didnt listen when blizz said there was no plan to add flying.

Originally Blizz said they would add flying to WoD in a later patch. It was quite late on (after the .1 patch) they said they decided not to add flight at all. That's the announcement that caused a huge backlash from people who were happy to wait but wanted flight eventually. Not long after Blizz did a 180 and said they would add flight with the Pathfinder achievment.

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A point I have repeatedly made over the years, about flying, about CRZ and other things, is that Blizzard has reasons for things that they explain to their players and they have reasons for things they do not explain to their players. It was very clear for years that many of the top developers/managers for WoW were unhappy that flying had ever been introduced. It was also very clear that the decision on Warlords was made somewhere in the middle of the development process. They made the zones the usual way as 3D spaces and when they decided to not include flying on launch they stopped working on them. When Pathfinder came along, they needed to finish them.

If they had truly committed to no flying and never going back they would have done the zones as 2D spaces (like Silvermoon City). So I think it's unfair to say that they never intended to have flying in Warlords. It's perfectly fair that they wanted to start without it and hoped that not too much of a fuss would be raised. It's also fair to say that designing quests in a 2D environment is a simpler thing than allowing people to fly into objectives and finish the quest without actually doing much of it.

It's not a binary world. Things can be A and B at times. Pathfinder was their compromise with players. I will remain convinced for a very long while yet that they were inviting trouble by having flying mounts in the store, selling a crapload of them and then deciding to remove flying. That's asking for problems and I'm reasonably certain that someone informed the developers that it wasn't, as it were, going to fly.

Nonetheless, it's perfectly OK to wonder what corporate reasons might exist for changes. CRZ was sold as populating zones. It was also something that allowed them to eventually reconfigure how they manage network capacity. Both things are true.

I don't think they would have made WoD with 2D "stage illusions" like Silvermoon and pre-Cata Old World. Those were mostly done to save system resources back when WoW was being played on potatoes and I'm not convinced that designing and testing zones that way would save any development time, especially with things like the glider.

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outland, northrend, and cata zones(to an extent)

outland, for the most part, is still one of the best areas in the entire game. if only it could be updated to not have that shitty 2004 quest design.

Other than a few inaccessible places (which could be easily changed by adding a ramp) Outland wasn't really designed for flying mounts and was mostly ground-friendly. Northrend had Storm Peaks (which was awesome) and Icecrown (which sucked) designed for flight, the rest was ground friendly apart from the huge, empty expanses. Cataclysm seems to have been designed mostly for no-flying but then when they decided to have flight from the start they half-assed finishing up, the zones added to the old world would have been better tackled from the ground if they put a bit more thought into it. Only Vash'jir and arguably Deepholm really benefitted from flying.

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i don't care how easy it is to make? that's the other person you're talking to.

i'm talking about what's funner. zones catering to it are more fun.

I'd like to counter that by saying "no they're not." Yay opinions!

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Which is why they had to cut so much from WoD. They couldn't afford to put another 2+ months of work in before launch.

They cut so much from WoD because they over-focussed on the Garrison system and it flopped with the player so they decided to cut their losses and dedicate more people to getting Legion out.

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wow yeah my memory is bad, thanks for correcting me.

You might have been thinking of Druids getting their flight-form a few levels before 70.

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Incorrect.

Pathfinder was originally added in WoD to buy time for Blizzard to fix the systems which would otherwise break with flight enabled.

Pathfinder was then reintroduced in Legion and BFA (which this discussion is NOT about).

It wasn't though, in WoD Pathfinder was completed a while before those issues were fixed and flight enabled.

[Flurryfang]

If you can recall, flying was disabled in WoD because it would break phasing as well as some quest and cinematic triggers. Remember the PTR servers where flight was enabled and how painfully obvious it was that WoD wasn't designed with flight in mind at all?

Player feedback - regarding how great MoP's Timeless Isle content was - simply gave Blizzard a convenient excuse to keep everyone grounded in order to cut corners and push the already-delayed expansion out sooner.

To add to this, Tanaan Jungle was so vastly incomplete at launch, that they placed an impenetrable dome over it and people still found ways of getting inside.

Given how time-poor the development team were at getting content out the door - as Legion's development was already underway - Blizzard had initially decided to disable flight for the entire expansion rather than test and fix everything that flying broke.

I'm tired of reading that pathfinder was introduced to reinvigorate world PvP and exploration, because it wasn't. That's the corporate spiel trying to cover up the fact that disabling flight substantially reduces the amount of testing that needs to be done prior to launch.

Any praise of the pathfinder achievement only emboldens Blizzard's decision to cut corners, which could partially explain why the game is where it's at today.

EDIT: This isn't a thread about pro / anti flight. Too many people repeat the rhetoric that Blizzard did this for the player's benefit, which isn't true, and I'm setting the record straight.

....You do know that you can change your mind on why a specific thing exists right?

Like sure they first introduced it against phasing and testing, but nowadays, there is not really areas where we can't go because of flying, so they still have to test everything.

Furthermore, after doing the no-flying thing, they proberly found themselfs having players use the open world alot more and decided to keep it.

So yeah, just becasue something was introduced on some reasons, does not mean that those reasons can't change.

Its like not like moterways because the nazies made them first. Sure, something might have an origen, but things changes over time.

[Lodreh]

...Flying makes the world irrelevant...

No. Flying doesn't make the world irrelevant. Lack of meaningful reasons to explore and go back do. Is flying a convenience? Sure, but it is so much more than that. By having that freedom I can engage in content I want to participate in. If I want to just fly from node to node gathering herbs or mining I can. I don't have to spend all my playtime killing mobs that offer no rewards and are a nuisance keeping me from what I wish to do.

...What's the point of having to fly to a target mob, click on three buttons, then fly again to the quest giver?

That is expeditious use of time. Being able to feel accomplished is one of those reasons games offer a great escape from the mundane. If my in game pursuits begin to feel mundane I have little reason to play the game. Being grounded feels mundane. The mobs are no real threat... just an annoyance... the travel time takes longer... makes my limited playtime feel like I was unable to gain any meaningful progression on my character. That's a bad feeling.

[FuxieDK]

The TBC comment is still correct. Druids had flight form, not flying.

Yes and no..

We had flight form, yes..
But at the same time, when we learned flight form at level 68, we got the 3rd riding skill (that unlocks flying at 60%) for free at level 68..
Sadly all flying mounts required level 70, so while we had the skill, we were forced to use bird form until level 70.

[Tarba]

No. Flying doesn't make the world irrelevant. Lack of meaningful reasons to explore and go back do. Is flying a convenience? Sure, but it is so much more than that. By having that freedom I can engage in content I want to participate in. If I want to just fly from node to node gathering herbs or mining I can. I don't have to spend all my playtime killing mobs that offer no rewards and are a nuisance keeping me from what I wish to do.

That is expeditious use of time. Being able to feel accomplished is one of those reasons games offer a great escape from the mundane. If my in game pursuits begin to feel mundane I have little reason to play the game. Being grounded feels mundane. The mobs are no real threat... just an annoyance... the travel time takes longer... makes my limited playtime feel like I was unable to gain any meaningful progression on my character. That's a bad feeling.

Feeling accomplished on what ? Clicking three buttons? To kill a non challenging mob and loot him? Basically you don't want to play the game. You just want to get what you want without doing anything.
Go on a pay2win game you'll feel better.

[Lodreh]

Feeling accomplished on what ? Clicking three buttons? To kill a non challenging mob and loot him? Basically you don't want to play the game. You just want to get what you want without doing anything.
Go on a pay2win game you'll feel better.

I'll try to keep this simple so you can follow along. I'd rather spend the day mining. Getting skill increases. Seeing that little bar move makes it feel like I've done something that day. Tomorrow I'll be that much closer to maxing out that little bar. That means progress and with it a sense of accomplishment. Killing droves of mobs between each little node does nothing to move that bar. They drop nothing of value. It waste my limited playtime. I'm there to play the game. I am not able to play due to mob saturation sapping most of my playtime. With flying and the ability to skip said worthless time sink allows me to play the game and see progress.

[Tarba]

I'll try to keep this simple so you can follow along. I'd rather spend the day mining. Getting skill increases. Seeing that little bar move makes it feel like I've done something that day. Tomorrow I'll be that much closer to maxing out that little bar. That means progress and with it a sense of accomplishment. Killing droves of mobs between each little node does nothing to move that bar. They drop nothing of value. It waste my limited playtime. I'm there to play the game. I am not able to play due to mob saturation sapping most of my playtime. With flying and the ability to skip said worthless time sink allows me to play the game and see progress.

Lol. Wow is clearly not made for you then. You are looking at a click and collect game. Not a mmo with a world, content or other players. And what you try so hard to accomplish (aka leveling mining in bfa) is done during a normal leveling plus 5 hours.

[SirCowdog]

Feeling accomplished on what ? Clicking three buttons? To kill a non challenging mob and loot him? Basically you don't want to play the game. You just want to get what you want without doing anything.
Go on a pay2win game you'll feel better.

You're missing the points being made.

If content is already boring, as it is right now, then there's no harm in letting people move around it conveniently. In fact allowing that can make shallow content more tolerable, since players can more easily focus on the parts that they actually enjoy.

It's not about wanting to skip everything, or wanting to get things without effort. It's about making the best use of your time. Flight allows that.

Are there better ways to use flying? Absolutely! But there's also better ways to design open world content than what Blizzard has been vomiting out lately.

[Tarba]

You're missing the points being made.

If content is already boring, as it is right now, then there's no harm in letting people move around it conveniently. In fact allowing that can make shallow content more tolerable, since players can more easily focus on the parts that they actually enjoy.

It's not about wanting to skip everything, or wanting to get things without effort. It's about making the best use of your time. Flight allows that.

Are there better ways to use flying? Absolutely! But there's also better ways to design open world content than what Blizzard has been vomiting out lately.

Nope. It's about turning an openworld into an empty click and collect game. And yes it's literraly about skipping everything. Wich is not really a problem once that content is irrevelant. Not before. So basically after the first or second patch depending about how the content is paced, and not on the new content zone released.

[Unholyground]

My solution is the only one that makes sense.

1. Fully explore a zone.
2. Complete the main story quest line for that zone.
3. Flying unlocks

It is a per zone basis and you get a glider if you go into a zone where you have not unlocked it. Pretty fucking simple.

[SirCowdog]

Nope. It's about turning an openworld into an empty click and collect game. And yes it's literraly about skipping everything. Wich is not really a problem once that content is irrevelant. Not before. So basically after the first or second patch depending about how the content is paced, and not on the new content zone released.

Right...so you just ignored everything I just said. This is why we can't have nice things.

[Fred Skinner]

If they had truly committed to no flying and never going back they would have done the zones as 2D spaces (like Silvermoon City). So I think it's unfair to say that they never intended to have flying in Warlords. It's perfectly fair that they wanted to start without it and hoped that not too much of a fuss would be raised. It's also fair to say that designing quests in a 2D environment is a simpler thing than allowing people to fly into objectives and finish the quest without actually doing much of it.

Immersion was never the real reason to remove flying. The real reason was that blizzard needed a massively valuable intrinsic reward to make people play their game.

And flying was that. And is that nowadays.

And the devs will never undo that decision. As they make a lot of money with it.

[Lodreh]

Lol. Wow is clearly not made for you then. You are looking at a click and collect game.

Majority of players view WoW as a collect game. Toys, Mounts, Pets, Transmog, Achievements.

Not a mmo with a world, content or other players.

World and content with flying and collecting... other players are only needed in instanced content (without flying of course).

And what you try so hard to accomplish (aka leveling mining in bfa) is done during a normal leveling plus 5 hours.

Didn't say it was hard to accomplish... said it was time consuming and flying would aid in that.

Right...so you just ignored everything I just said. This is why we can't have nice things.

Starting to feel like he's just trolling.

[Dhrizzle]

Immersion was never the real reason to remove flying. The real reason was that blizzard needed a massively valuable intrinsic reward to make people play their game.

And flying was that. And is that nowadays.

And the devs will never undo that decision. As they make a lot of money with it.

Do you really think getting people to grind out Pathfinder (which you can typically get just doing the world content) makes enough to make up for the people who quit/delay purchase over the matter and the fact mounts on the store became less attractive? Also, how does the fact they planned to leave flying out altogether play into this idea?

[Cena]

If you can recall, flying was disabled in WoD because it would break phasing as well as some quest and cinematic triggers. Remember the PTR servers where flight was enabled and how painfully obvious it was that WoD wasn't designed with flight in mind at all?

Player feedback - regarding how great MoP's Timeless Isle content was - simply gave Blizzard a convenient excuse to keep everyone grounded in order to cut corners and push the already-delayed expansion out sooner.

To add to this, Tanaan Jungle was so vastly incomplete at launch, that they placed an impenetrable dome over it and people still found ways of getting inside.

Given how time-poor the development team were at getting content out the door - as Legion's development was already underway - Blizzard had initially decided to disable flight for the entire expansion rather than test and fix everything that flying broke.

I'm tired of reading that pathfinder was introduced to reinvigorate world PvP and exploration, because it wasn't. That's the corporate spiel trying to cover up the fact that disabling flight substantially reduces the amount of testing that needs to be done prior to launch.

Any praise of the pathfinder achievement only emboldens Blizzard's decision to cut corners, which could partially explain why the game is where it's at today.

EDIT: This isn't a thread about pro / anti flight. Too many people repeat the rhetoric that Blizzard did this for the player's benefit, which isn't true, and I'm setting the record straight.

I have no way of agreeing or disagreeing until you can give me an inside source of a Blizzard employee within the wow team backing up your observations. Then what you say does make sense. However you have to understand the way zone development works is that they are very dependent on the story development department. The zones are made and worked based on the story they tell and if the story department keeps iterating on how they tell their story then the developer has to continuously iterate the zones. If you play the PTR during alpha/beta you will realize that. During Mist of Pandaria initial PTR testing the story was different where you were fighting the Mogu in the jade forest, but at launch they didn't include the Mogu at all and the story was changed to where you are fighting the Sha. Same thing with Gorgrond in WoD where they had an entire rail road connecting to Shattarath city. But that never made it to live due to so many changes and iterations to the zone story. Many of the initial WoD story of how zones were supposed to be got scrapped, because of constant iterations and the development team eventually ran out of time and the expansion felt incomplete at live to many players as it should have.

So basically what I am saying is a major reason why an expansion would suck or be incomplete is due to the story development team that keeps changing their story of the game. Developing the zones doesn't take long, but constantly iterating it does because this game is heavily story driven.