Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[Skulltaker]

How do you figure? Strange isn’t omnipotent.

No, but he sure is omniscient in regards of the futures he looked at. Minutes after bein undusted he knew to open portals from New Asgard and Wakanda, places he didn't even know about, except for looking at 'the one' timeline and its conclusion, so he does know about Cap going back and returning the infinity stones, which is a necessity for them not to screw over 4 timelines at once, and therefor also knows where Captain will go afterwards, and check up if he's already there. Unless he isn't, because he lives in a different timeline unobserved by Strange.

[Skulltaker]

So because he knew what happened to defeat Thanos he knew what would happen after they defeated him? Why would he look beyond the defeat of Thanos? Especially when he was clearly not happy about Tony being forced to sacrifice himself.

First of all, because he's Steven Strange, who's kind of a stickler to see things through, and also, by the time Thanos is defeated, Captain Rogers has already arrived in the 50es and married Peggy Carter. He doesn't need to see him leave, he just needs to see him arrive or live there. And also, since he takes his job as keeper of the Gem rather serious, he'd have made sure that the stones were returned to the proper places in time, since otherwise, they doom several universes on their own.

[Ophenia]

No, but he sure is omniscient in regards of the futures he looked at. Minutes after bein undusted he knew to open portals from New Asgard and Wakanda, places he didn't even know about, except for looking at 'the one' timeline and its conclusion, so he does know about Cap going back and returning the infinity stones, which is a necessity for them not to screw over 4 timelines at once, and therefor also knows where Captain will go afterwards, and check up if he's already there. Unless he isn't, because he lives in a different timeline unobserved by Strange.

For New Asgard, he very well know where it is, as it is the place where Odin went hiding before dying.

[Skulltaker]

For New Asgard, he very well know where it is, as it is the place where Odin went hiding before dying.

The place, yes, not that the Asgardians decided to settle there. When Odin was there it was just a nice place at a Fjord.

[NihilSustinet]

I was disappointed.

Too much sentimentality, unnecessary link ups with the past. too much looking back at prior movies - it felt at some points like one of those retrospective episodes they do in TV to pan out the season. And too much blatant hand waving off of “Oh Captain Marvel is too busy somewhere else”.

Then the end felt rushed as it tried to cram everyone in because they hadn’t been able to get the screen time before.

Also laid on the pop culture references a bit too thick, more than any other in the franchise; not just in the conversations, but the cinematography too.

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Well Thanos and co. didn't seem overly surprised about time-travelling Nova's origin - it was literally the first conclusion they came to, and they [I]didn't require the special suits the Avengers did, and were able to bring their ship and crew with them, without miniaturising it.[/I] They got to that point from 1 bracelet with 1 vial of Pym's particles to bringing their entire army to Earth. Maybe it was something already open to them? They obviously didn't use the Bracelet, because they didn't recall to the pad; they just nuked it from orbit.

I have other questions.

- Why is Peter Parker going back to school 5 years later? [I]Why are his classmates still there?[/I]
- Where did Cap leave Mjolnir? He took it with him, but didn't have it with him when he passed on his shield.
- How did they build the time machine so quickly?
- Hawkeye's happily married with kids; yet he's still so in love with Black Widow that he'll kill himself for the Soulstone?
- How do we go from Infinity stones requiring either some kind of housing or levitation to carry around, to literally bare hands carrying?

There's more, but the more I'm thinking about this, the more annoyed I am at it all.

1eter died in the snap, he came back 5 years later, but he didnt age while dead, so why wouldnt he go back to school?
2: cap probably gave mjolnir back to thor from that timeline.
3: stark uses nano tech to rapidly make any machine he designs. same reason the glove on his suit suddenly became his version of the infinity gauntlet.
4: hawkeye was never "in love" with black widow. they had a platonic love for each other, but it wasnt romantic.
5: who besides thanos ever touched one with their bare hands? ive seen the movie twice, i dont remember this happening, but i could be wrong.

as for the people who complain about time travel: it doesnt work. we know this. its a movie. just take it for what it is and have fun with it. its pointless anyway because it doesnt exist and as far as we know, its not even possible. its like debating about how big a unicorns penis is. it doesnt make you look smart, it just makes you a chore and not very fun at parties. not to mention you are pointing out time travel plot hole in a world where theres a guy who can turn into a big green monster when hes mad.. because gamma rays? where a 80+ year old man is a super soldier, where a women does magic with the color red, where the big bang created stones that make you into a god, because reasons? i could go on and on. if youre going to apply strict logic, rationality, and scientific understanding to it, i think superhero movies arent for you.

[Skulltaker]

That’s not true. Steve didn’t leave with the stones until after Thanos was defeated. And Stephen was busy looking for a potential future where Tony didn’t die. Add in that he clearly wasn’t that worried about what you describe, as evidenced by Loki’s escape never being addressed, and it feels an awful lot like you’re just struggling to justify why you’re right and the people who wrote the thing are wrong.

You don't know that. He looked at 14 million timelines. Not once does he say that he just watches them to the end of the fight. It isn't even implied. Looking at time could as easily mean that he looks at all if it. Infitiy stones sure are neat.

He'd alsoknow what Loki is going to be up to in that timeline, and how he's going to lose the Tesseract. Probably nothing that bad. We'll get to see it in the upcoming Loki TV series.

Looks to me like you're not capable of grasping the full implications of 'looking at timelines'. Again, I dare you to write down a version of your interpretation of the time travel mechanic that makes sense. One that includes Peggy Carter never introducing her husband to her collegues and friends, one that includes Marvel planning a casting session for the man who's going to be her husband. The writers maybe planned for her husband to be Steve Rogers, but in the main timeline, he never was. Note that they never directly say that's how it is, but only 'that's how we would have liked it.'

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And he still saw where the portals opened up to when he looked at how they defeated Thanos. I’m pretty sure he’d recognize it thanks to his photographic memory.

Exactly, thanks for proving my point. He saw where they came from, he would have seen Cap living with Peggy. Which he didn't.

[Keashaa]

5: who besides thanos ever touched one with their bare hands? ive seen the movie twice, i dont remember this happening, but i could be wrong.

Star Lord in GotG is the first example that comes to my mind.

[Skulltaker]

Cap didn’t go live with Peggy until after all that.

You just can't grasp the concept, can you? Him departing might be after that, but not him returning the stones. Chronologically, that has already happened even back when he becomes the Sorcerer Supreme. Steven Strange says he's looking at the outcome of possible futures. Nowhere does it say that he stops when Thanos is defeated, and since that doesn't equate them finishing up, but returning the stones does, he'd also check up on Cap.

Or, in the strictest sense, he'd have looked ahead and see Thor chopping his head off. Why would he 'keep watching' after that if the goal was to defeat Thanos?

[NihilSustinet]

Star Lord in GotG is the first example that comes to my mind.

he was half celestial and also shared the power between 4 other people. this was addressed.

[blankfaced]

No, you're simply wrong =) The golden line is HER universe, not the one we watched. And yes, removing the stone would doom that timeline, and returning it will fix their timeline.

Nothing that has already happened can be changed. If your interpretation of their timetravel was correct, Loki escaped with the Tesseract, at the end of Avengers, and wasn't returned to Asgard by Thor. Which we already know happened. though. As has been clearly stated: You cannot go back to your own past and live in it, you can go to a point in the past and make a new future, which will be different from what you know as the past. The writing works perfectly fine, it's just the writers trying to be to clever in this interview that screws it up.

At the end of Endgame, we are left with the prime timeline, the 1950es timeline where Steve Rogers lives, the 1970es timeline where Stark Sr met his adult son, the 2012 timeline where Loki escaped, the 2013 timeline where fat thor met frigga and removed the Hammer for a moment, and the 2014 timeline where Star-Lord suffered a brief lapse of unconsciousness befor getting the Power stone, the timeline without a Thanos and his army.

Did we watch the same movie? They explicitly state the timeline splits when the stone is removed, and after it's return the timeline is "fixed". All those timelines you think exist, do not.

[Lodreh]

Ultimately, I liked the movie. I feel that it wraps everything up that needed to be resolved while sprinkling a few threads that could be continued further down the line. There were a few things I did not care for... but over all I was entertained and that's what it was about.

[Skulltaker]

No, it hasn't. They explain this very well at the very beginning of all the Time Travel stuff. While they may be traveling into the past from where they are in space time, it's the future of their timelines. You need to see the movie again and stop making assumptions to make your theory right and the WRITERS OF THE FILM wrong.

So he cannot go back to live with Peggy, because if it took place in his timeline, it would be his past? Is that what you're saying? If they have to actually leave for it to happen, then at the point of time where Infinity War takes place, Peggy Carter still lives with her husband who isn't Steve Rogers. You can't have it both ways. Either it has always been the case, in which case he already returned the stones, just like he is already living with Peggy, or they live in an alternate timeline, and the writers are wrong, just as you are.

Thank you very much for coming to this conclusion yourself.

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Did we watch the same movie? They explicitly state the timeline splits when the stone is removed, and after it's return the timeline is "fixed". All those timelines you think exist, do not.

Nope, you're wrong. The timelines they 'fix' with the return of the stones are entirely new, and still there, otherwise they would have removed and killed Thanos prior to infinity war, creating a paradox. The timeline shown by the Ancient One isn't the timeline where the MCU movies took place. It's the future from where they are standing, and since for them it is 2012, it isn't set in stone yet, and can be manipulated. Hulk explains that pretty well in the beginning: You cannot go back to the past and change stuff.

[NihilSustinet]

So he cannot go back to live with Peggy, because if it took place in his timeline, it would be his past? Is that what you're saying? If they have to actually leave for it to happen, then at the point of time where Infinity War takes place, Peggy Carter still lives with her husband who isn't Steve Rogers. You can't have it both ways. Either it has always been the case, in which case he already returned the stones, just like he is already living with Peggy, or they live in an alternate timeline, and the writers are wrong, just as you are.

Thank you very much for coming to this conclusion yourself.

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Nope, you're wrong. The timelines they 'fix' with the return of the stones are entirely new, and still there, otherwise they would have removed and killed Thanos prior to infinity war, creating a paradox. The timeline shown by the Ancient One isn't the timeline where the MCU movies took place. It's the future from where they are standing, and since for them it is 2012, it isn't set in stone yet, and can be manipulated. Hulk explains that pretty well in the beginning: You cannot go back to the past and change stuff.

i think youre playing 4d chess with your own brain. cap returns the stones to prevent alternate time lines form splitting off. period. this is explicitly stated. the only offshoot that will still exist is the one loki created when he got the tesseract and escaped.

[Skulltaker]

i think youre playing 4d chess with your own brain. cap returns the stones to prevent alternate time lines form splitting off. period. this is explicitly stated. the only offshoot that will still exist is the one loki created when he got the tesseract and escaped.

Why should that one be different? All other periods of time had alterations to them. Stark talking to his father, Loki escaping, Thor talking to his mother and Thanos's army and the big guy himself being wiped out, and Steve Rogers living in 1950 with Peggy Carter.

[Ophenia]

Or, in the strictest sense, he'd have looked ahead and see Thor chopping his head off. Why would he 'keep watching' after that if the goal was to defeat Thanos?

As the Ancient One explained to Dr Strange in his movie, you can't see beyond your own death. So it's likely Dr Strange was only able to see up to the snap, then from the unsnap to the "end". Everything in between was very likely hidden from him.

Regarding the Time Travels itself, imo everything made sense until they tried to tell me Captain went back in time to 1- put back the stones and 2- live with Peggy. Going back in time is going back into some kind of "alternate reality", but that basically means that when Captain is going back, he is going back into a "pristine" past where the Stones have not been stolen yet. Unless Stark's equipment is able to chose which reality you're going to, which seems... Excessively complex, even for Stark.

And no, the "alternate realities" are NOT erased. They are "back on track". People are misunderstanding the Ancient One's "timeline graph", it was only to show that without one Stone, the reality is heading into darkness, open to any mystic/cosmic threat, defenseless. Putting the stone back brings these realities back to normality, but they still exist, in parallel of the "main" one. They're not erased. Otherwise, the "main" timeline would have been erased when the Avengers brought back all 6 Stones into this one ?

[Skulltaker]

As the Ancient One explained to Dr Strange in his movie, you can't see beyond your own death. So it's likely Dr Strange was only able to see up to the snap, then from the unsnap to the "end". Everything in between was very likely hidden from him.

Regarding the Time Travels itself, imo everything made sense until they tried to tell me Captain went back in time to 1- put back the stones and 2- live with Peggy. Going back in time is going back into some kind of "alternate reality", but that basically means that when Captain is going back, he is going back into a "pristine" past where the Stones have not been stolen yet. Unless Stark's equipment is able to chose which reality you're going to, which seems... Excessively complex, even for Stark.

And no, the "alternate realities" are NOT erased. They are "back on track". People are misunderstanding the Ancient One's "timeline graph", it was only to show that without one Stone, the reality is heading into darkness, open to any mystic/cosmic threat, defenseless. Putting the stone back brings these realities back to normality, but they still exist, in parallel of the "main" one. They're not erased. Otherwise, the "main" timeline would have been erased when the Avengers brought back all 6 Stones into this one ?

First paragraph: True, which is kind of weird, but that still would mean that he saw the New Asgardians, Wakanda and Captain living with his family.

OUR Captain Rogers (or any other of 'our' Avengers) can go back to the alternate timelines created when they first traveled back because these timelines can still be their future. They haven't spent that much time in any of those, and can still make them their future, although they'd live side by side with that timelines counterpart of themselves. Which means, while Steve Rogers lives with Peggy Carter in 1950, there's another Steve Rogers sleeping in the ice.

Your third paragraph is spot on.

[Ophenia]

OUR Captain Rogers (or any other of 'our' Avengers) can go back to the alternate timelines created when they first traveled back because these timelines can still be their future. They haven't spent that much time in any of those, and can still make them their future, although they'd live side by side with that timelines counterpart of themselves. Which means, while Steve Rogers lives with Peggy Carter in 1950, there's another Steve Rogers sleeping in the ice.

I have trouble understanding this part. Because the machine sends you back in time, but it should not send you to any desired alternate realities. That means that when Captain is going to 2010 to put back the Time and Mind Stone, he should simply arrive in the post-Avengers1 scene where no Stone is missing, Loki still imprisoned and so on (the regular, unchanged one). He should not appear in the "alternate reality" where Captain fought with Captain, where Tony Stark had a stroke, and where Loki escaped.
Unless the Tony Stark's bracers can not only travel through time through the quantum realm, but it can also travel through realities ? I really can't buy it. Even though that may be feasible by the combined IQ of Stark, Banner and Pym, that's seems really tough. Maybe there is some kind of "beacon" or "GPS history" in these devices that allow them to "chose" where to go ? Dunno.

[Skulltaker]

I have trouble understanding this part. Because the machine sends you back in time, but it should not send you to any desired alternate realities. That means that when Captain is going to 2010 to put back the Time and Mind Stone, he should simply arrive in the post-Avengers1 scene where no Stone is missing, Loki still imprisoned and so on (the regular, unchanged one). He should not appear in the "alternate reality" where Captain fought with Captain, where Tony Stark had a stroke, and where Loki escaped.
Unless the Tony Stark's bracers can not only travel through time through the quantum realm, but it can also travel through realities ? I really can't buy it. Even though that may be feasible by the combined IQ of Stark, Banner and Pym, that's seems really tough. Maybe there is some kind of "beacon" or "GPS history" in these devices that allow them to "chose" where to go ? Dunno.

If you can buy a pad that allows you to put on a weird pyjama and travel back through time with the use of a fancy glass luster, is that really that much of a stretch?

Remember the animation they used to depict time travel, it looked like them traveling through lots and lots of pathways, or tubes. They use the Pad as a homing beacon, and since cap tries to get back as close as possible to the point where they removed the stone, he can check the suits... GPS, I guess? To go where they have previously been.

Also, since Steven Strange has the ability to see multiple realities, maybe he simply enchanted the bracers to allow Cap to get back exactly where he needed to be.

[Skulltaker]

Wrong. See Strange was looking into the future of these individuals. That means he was looking from where they were at this point in time forward until Thanos was defeated. While future Steve already returned the stones in the timeline, unless Strange was looking specifically to see if Steve married Peggy at whatever point in history he wouldn't have seen it. To see such a thing he'd have had to follow Steve's timeline beyond returning the stones. We have zero evidence he would have looked at such things as he was struggling to find a timeline where Tony wouldn't die. And was interrupted in the process.

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I feel like I haven’t been entirely clear on my understanding of Strange looking into the future. This is how I see it playing out based on the rules outlined with looking into the future in the MCU. He is following his own timeline and seeing what happens. In the “winning” future he sees himself snapped and then immediately jumps back to 5 years in the future. Because that’s how the second snap worked. So he sees all the choices he makes that lead to the ultimate victory basically. Everything else is just playing out without him necessarily knowing what happened in those 5 years. To know what happened with Cap he’d have to be looking specifically at him and, potentially, astral project himself or the like in those visions to see what happened. Beyond seeing Thanos defeated I’m not sure Strange had the time to worry about all that. It’s a cross that bridge when you come to it situation. Deal with the imminent threat first, in the only way possible, and then worry about the rest in Phase 4.

That's not even slightly what he says, though. He says that he looks into possible outcomes for the future, and Cap already being there would be one of them.

And at one point you try to tell me he has 'the time to worry about', but on the other that he looks into individual futures for over a dozen characters, in 14 million permutations? That makes no sense. There is also no evidence to him 'struggling to look for a timeline where Tony Stark doesn't die.' For the brief time they knew each other they were not exactly friendly. He had basically no emotional attachment to Stark. Preserving the time stone would have been his top priority after the Universe. Stark comes a good way down the list of his priorities.

The rules for the future are pretty well laid out by the ancient one. Time follows a path that can be influenced by removing, destroying or whatever certain important objects, or persons. In either case you can doom or save a timeline.

[Skulltaker]

Already being there? Cap wasn’t already there. An old man was sitting quietly in retirement waiting for the battle to be over. Then he waited the time required for them to build a new platform and send him back. Then a funeral happened. All of which was after Thanos was defeated, which is what Strange was searching for.

Just go tell the writers why they’re wrong, because that’s the point you’re starting from.

None of what you say is supported by the movie, man. Yes, Cap was already there. For all of it. He was an old man in infinity war, and he was one in endgame. He didn't magically appear on that bench.

And now that you start to see how you're wrong you try to shift the problem away from yourself, do I get that right? Put me in a room with the tow of them and I'll not only tell them that they are wrong, I'll even get them to admit that they are, no problem. All the evidence for cap living in an alternate timeline is there, while exactly nothing we observed even allows us to assume he went back into his own past to live there. You yourself said that was impossible. If Cap can go back to live with 'the' Peggy, Sam could have gone back in time to kill Thanos. There is no such thing as 'destined to do so'.