So rogues can actually turn invisible?

[Travace]

I believe the rogues being invisible was a direction choice for the benefit of us the viewer.
Clearly Thrall and Saurfang had no problem detecting them:

Game mechanics you could argue that Thrall was able to tell the rogue on the roof was there because he was close. If you're too close to someone while in stealth they can see you.

But Saurfang actually hears the rogue approaching, while in stealth, from a ways away, which leads me to believe they were not actually invisible and because that rogue was essentially out in the open they were easily detected.
The neck snap supports this as well.

I think if they DIDNT go invisible we would all be discussing why the rogues didnt stealth.

[LazarusLong]

In The Shattering, Varian remarks that the rogues of SI:7 become indistinguishable from the shadows and in the A Good War/Elegy novel, Lorash and the undead rogue (I forget his name) are just very quiet when sneaking around or hiding in bushes and behind/in trees.

Unless I'm mistaken, this is the first instance of in-game Stealth being shown in canon.

In the same A Good War/Elegy we, however, see some magic stuff from the NE rogue. It seems that at least some of them can actually manipulate shadows.

- - - Updated - - -

In the Good war/Elegy novels, it quite specifically states that the rogues employ a bit of "the other shadow" to stay hidden (during the part where the BE rogue is setting up to ambush the druids running through the treetops).

So, it's shadow magic.

Also this, yes.

[OIS]

They appear roguish and turn invisible but I don't know if you should automatically assume that's what WoW rogues are doing when they use stealth. They could just be rogue/wizard hybrids and know greater invisibility. Lots of lore characters mix elements from different classes.

I wouldn't try to explain everything with gameplay mechanics.

Yeah but they make the Stealth noise when they turn invisible so it must be Stealth, not Greater Invisibility or anything. As I said I've always thought Stealth wasn't something you can actually turn on and off lorewise, that in game it just symbolizes that you're blending in with your surroundings and since this is Warcraft and not Splinter Cell or anything why bother with actually adding a stealth mechanic? But now we have people acting like Ghosts from Starcraft. So what does Stealth actually do?

[Nitros14]

The persons holding the blades were literally walking undead beings, back from the grave. And we are worried about the lore-correctness of Vanish?

I don't even know where to begin here.

Yeah man why have any consistency whatsoever in a story or world. As soon as anything is fictional may as well just rule of cool it all and do whatever, retcon everything if it doesn't agree with what seems cool at the moment.

[schwarzkopf]

Yes - if we define anything preventing being detected by vision as 'invisible' - then we've known all along that rogues can go invisible.

[ohwell]

Again: Demons. Demons are born of fel. Their abilities IN GAME being shadow does not make it true.



Which is kind of the point of the complaints???



There is no way to get evidence for something NOT Doing something. It either does it, or it doesn't - I can prove if it does, but if it doesn't, all I can do is sit and wait until you accept that it won't do it.



My warlock tried to use his shadows to turn invisible, but failed. I guess that must be proof enough for you?



You're correct here.



"Shadow based demons" don't exist. We have Voidwalkers, confirmed to be Void creatures - Succubus, fel creatures - Imps, fel creatures - Felguards, fel creatures - Doomguards, fel creatures - Need I go on?



As can vanishing powder - Turns out, herbs have a lot of effects, especially when combined with OTHER herbs!



I don't see any reason to believe it should.

Demons canonically use shadow magic along with fel so you're wrong.

[MikeBogina]

retcon everything if it doesn't agree with what seems cool at the moment.

I feel like they've been doing this a lot lately.

It's like the C&C: Red Alert series where they keep going back in time to fuck something up to justify another game, but at least that was part of the whole story xD

[schwarzkopf]

Again - if you aren't able to see something, then it is invisible. In vanilla - I couldn't see a stealth rogue, therefore - it was invisible.

[Adunai]

Honestly, Rogues were just made up out of thin air (pun intended) for the MMO. There were no Rogues in WC3. And I miss that time.

In WC3, the only invisible things were 1) Shades (undead spirits); 2) Troll Wards (voodoo spirits); 3) spirit Wolves (Orc (ancestor?) spirits); 4) Shadowmelded NE women (Elune magic); 5) Sorc Invisibility (Arcane-based); 6) and Blademaster's Wind Walk (uncertain nature, actually - maybe fel?).

Rogues are a class with the least lore, a class that shouldn't exist, made as a joke explicitly and solely to satisfy D&D nerds because they have a cutthroat in their game... The closest Warcraft had were renegade wizards and bandits throwing spears ("Shadowmelded" at night - clearly just an ambush). No wonder you put them in a cinematic and it feels funny.

[Aucald]

Honestly, Rogues were just made up out of thin air (pun intended) for the MMO. There were no Rogues in WC3. And I miss that time.

In WC3, the only invisible things were 1) Shades (undead spirits); 2) Troll Wards (voodoo spirits); 3) spirit Wolves (Orc (ancestor?) spirits); 4) Shadowmelded NE women (Elune magic); 5) Sorc Invisibility (Arcane-based); 6) and Blademaster's Wind Walk (uncertain nature, actually - maybe fel?).

Rogues are a class with the least lore, a class that shouldn't exist, made as a joke explicitly and solely to satisfy D&D nerds because they have a cutthroat in their game... The closest Warcraft had were renegade wizards and bandits throwing spears ("Shadowmelded" at night - clearly just an ambush). No wonder you put them in a cinematic and it feels funny.

Except for Bandit creeps, all of whom have a form of the Shadowmeld ability that functions as their stealth.

[Venziir]

Honestly, Rogues were just made up out of thin air (pun intended) for the MMO. There were no Rogues in WC3. And I miss that time.

In WC3, the only invisible things were 1) Shades (undead spirits); 2) Troll Wards (voodoo spirits); 3) spirit Wolves (Orc (ancestor?) spirits); 4) Shadowmelded NE women (Elune magic); 5) Sorc Invisibility (Arcane-based); 6) and Blademaster's Wind Walk (uncertain nature, actually - maybe fel?).

Rogues are a class with the least lore, a class that shouldn't exist, made as a joke explicitly and solely to satisfy D&D nerds because they have a cutthroat in their game... The closest Warcraft had were renegade wizards and bandits throwing spears ("Shadowmelded" at night - clearly just an ambush). No wonder you put them in a cinematic and it feels funny.

Sure, let's just forget all about Garona, the assassin, killing Llane in Warcraft 1 then.

[Artelia]

Well, until this cinematic happened rogues were most useless class in lore. It's really cool actually.

[mickybrighteyes]

Honestly, Rogues were just made up out of thin air (pun intended) for the MMO. There were no Rogues in WC3. And I miss that time.

Considering teh WC character line up doesn't fully mesh to any one class archetype for the most part... there aren't much of any of the original classes present.

a "priestess" that uses a bow and fights at range and raining arcane magic...

a bunch of archers that didn't have skill sets that translated to any idea of 'hunter' in live.

warriors with added fluff

'hunter' dubbed mobs that were CLEARLY shaman

Technically Samuro and Akama were straight up rogues... melee assassins. Samuro is basically how they fashioned the sub rogue but renamed shit. And a consession can be made conserning the weapon since the 'blademaster' character in the storyline was actually an axemaster and... to be honest... the 'Doomhammer' has been toyed with being a 2h or a 1h depending on source.

You want a class that popped up out of nowhere? Look at hunters. Late beta addition that somehow came into being and no one knew what to do beyond shoot shit.

[Engal]

Considering teh WC character line up doesn't fully mesh to any one class archetype for the most part... there aren't much of any of the original classes present.

a "priestess" that uses a bow and fights at range and raining arcane magic...

a bunch of archers that didn't have skill sets that translated to any idea of 'hunter' in live.

warriors with added fluff

'hunter' dubbed mobs that were CLEARLY shaman

Technically Samuro and Akama were straight up rogues... melee assassins. Samuro is basically how they fashioned the sub rogue but renamed shit. And a consession can be made conserning the weapon since the 'blademaster' character in the storyline was actually an axemaster and... to be honest... the 'Doomhammer' has been toyed with being a 2h or a 1h depending on source.

You want a class that popped up out of nowhere? Look at hunters. Late beta addition that somehow came into being and no one knew what to do beyond shoot shit.

"Late" beta addition? I was in wow late alpha and hunter were already here so what? :O

[mickybrighteyes]

"Late" beta addition? I was in wow late alpha and hunter were already here so what? :O

patch .9 in august 2004 not even 3 months before official launch...

edit:

for reference beta was going on in march 2004...

so from patch .9 notes in august of 2004:

Hunters
The Hunter Class is now available to test! Hunters track, tame, and slay all manner of animals and beasts found in the wild. Whether they rely on bows or firearms, Hunters consider their weapons and pets to be their only true friends. Races allowed to become Hunters are the Night Elf, Dwarf, Orc, Tauren, and Troll.

Hunters are great for pulling monsters as they are able to set traps that hinder monsters that the Hunters pull to attack. Hunters are also able to use various beast-related special abilities, take on bestial traits that give them supernatural powers, control and tame beasts, and use a wide variety of ranged attacks complimented by a few melee abilities.

Hunters are closely related to their pets and must remember to always keep their pet's happiness in mind. When using a pet, Hunters will notice an icon in the top left corner of their screen that depicts their pet's happiness. The more Hunters use their pets, the lower their pet's level of happiness will become. Hunters should always remember to feed their pets to raise their pet's level of happiness or worry about their pet abandoning them or even attacking the Hunter! Hunters are also the only class able to name their pets.

The Hunter can use the following weapons: Axes, Daggers, Guns or Bows, Crossbows (with training), Fist Weapons (with training), Spears (with training), Staves (with training), Swords, (with training), Thrown (with training), Two-Handed Axes (with training), Two-Handed Swords (with training). The Hunter can use the following armor: Cloth, Leather, Shields, and Mail (at level 40, with training).

[kaiba1]

In Warcraft, everything is possible.... even invisible walls.

[Stellarssaurus]

I don't know if this is a good argument BUT druids used to have a spell called Faerie Fire, and in his tooltip we can read this: Faeries surround the target, preventing it from stealthing or turning invisible, and causing 3 applications of the Weakened Armor debuff. By this I think that stealthing is different from turning invisible.

[Nattngale]

(I am not very good at English, sry.)
After reading some of the arguments here, I dont think people understand what is invisibility in real world/fantasy world. In real world the nearest thing to invisibility is letting light pass througth something enough it becomes not visible, like in glass window or glasses, you can see it because of some level of dirt in the glass, but if you get away enough, to not be possible to see the dirt, the glass becomes "invisible"(the more light pass through, harder is to human eyes to see). The truth is invisibility is a trick with one sense, the object is not really invisible, its just not visible for you, your eyes cant "understand" because its not a perfect tool to understand the world, in truth the brain+eyes play tricks as a way to understand the world most accurately possible for humans. In fantasy it can be magic because you really cant explain magic with real world rules, but at the same time it has to be limitations. In wow it seems to me its not a shadow spell, its a ability which uses shadow magic to make a cloak which let light pass througth you body. Or it can let you impermeable to light(lightproof) so light cant reach your body and have to change direction, its like the same idea of a fish swimming against the stream and its scales being responsible to not let water touch its body, like an aura or something. I dont see a problem with invisibility being possible in WoW by magic means, but invisibility is not the same as stealth, stealth is the combination of sneak, concealing, hiding, subtlety and invisibility. As seen in the video, the rogues were watching Thrall, maybe Saurfang knew that because of politics implications with Thrall and Sylvannas, maybe he knew Sylvannas had people watching him even before all the things done to make him go against her, had help from people who can track assassins and was warned, or just he saw something unusual(as I said about glasses being "invisible") and undertsood the situation and gone talk to Thrall. But the most important scene for me is the rogue run on Saurfang, it was not the rogue was bad with stealth, it was making the opening the other rogue(the one on the roof) needed to kill Thrall, like a distraction, the assassins really believed they could kill them both. The rogue in the fields understood she made a noise (which could be anything, even a animal) and they got careful and had to seize the moment, she runs towars Saurfang, sound + dust on her footsteeps made Saurfang see the direction of the ambush, the roof made a weird wood sound like when there is something heavy moving on top, you can hear even when cats walk by the rooftop, imagine a forsaken, Thrall reacted fast enough to protect himself. Stealth/Vanish is real useful in WoW, being some kind o mysticism or not, but if it was to be more accurate (in the video only), they still would be visible, something more like the hunter invisibility(cataclysm), where you still can see it, like transparent/translucent. Does not matter if its cannon or not, the stealth as it is in the video is far more accurate to the game than anything and still is a ability full of flaws, maybe it should be considered a skill only top tier rogues could do, for example the outlaw(combat) does not have enough subtlety to use invisibility but can learn it, it will be just not usefull seeing he uses guns and swords/axes/maces which are very bad tools for someone who need to be subtle.

[jediknight12]

ya invisibility is a stretch but not dragons and fireballs and teleportation and everything else in a game lol.

[michixlol]

I just have to reply to this topic, because I just saw this video from Maldraxxus again, where Draka turns invisible too and it made me so angry.
Stealth ISN'T invisibility. In Classic it is described as sneaking around. It is the class fantasy of a rogue. Stealth was just shown ingame as kind of invisible, because in an MMO you have to implement it in gameplay in some way.. but honestly.. this is so bull***t. It is the prowl of druids, when you are a human. New Blizzard destroys the game I loved for so long on so many levels. Not only the game itself and its mechanics, the animations, the deepness, the questlines and written stories, the story itself, they take old lore and destroy it with Shadowlands. They make rogues invisible while it is clear that mages use real Invisiblity.

And it makes me sad and angry how so many people now really see Stealth as being invisible. And this is totally Blizzards fault. They also destroy peoples class fantasy. Ingame e.g. by forcing rogues that like gameplay with two bigger weapons aka combat rogues to be a "pirate on land". There is no class fantasy, no self expression anymore. You are forced to be what Blizzard tells you you are.

I could write endlessly how they massacred my game in every way possible. A game I loved every aspect of. Since Legion they can't stop but ruin EVERYTHING I loved about this game. And then even the class fantasy of stealth what makes no sense being invisibility. If one of them uses an invisibility potion, alright, but they used the stealth and vanish sounds in the cinematic. The rogue didn't drink a potion or popped a smoke bomb to vanish, he just turned invisible and I can't live with that.
Everytime I see those things about retail it just hurts. I only play Classic anymore, but to know how the game has no hope and what they made of everything, how the good story doesn't even exist anymore and how they just changed class fantasy and story as they wanted.. it all doesn't make sense. And at best I block all retail stuff out and play Classic as long as it is fun.
Some day it's just time to go and maybe it's better that way.