[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Jessicka]

You can argue 'foreshadowing' for basically anything in this, it's big enough and long enough that drawing dots is easy.

Of any of the reasons I'd take for Dany torching King's Landing, it's because Missandei, the last adviser she trusted, advised her to with her final word; and the time we saw she spent there hardly gave her a good impression of the place.

Irrespective of all that, I'm still of the view this series has been rushed to its conclusions and has suffered for it.

[Independent voter]

Jesus fucking christ... Drogo's horde had just raped and pillaged that woman's village, killed her friends, and you think she didn't have a good fucking reason to kill Drogo and the baby? Lol. Stop getting so attached to characters that you don't see anything from anyone else's viewpoint anymore. Just because someone is a viewpoint character doesn't make them the good guys.

It's been a while since I've seen that episode and read it in the books, but Dany helped that woman by ordering the rapes and murders to stop. I guess Dany expected that the woman would be grateful and help her. This was naive. The woman hated Dany and Drogo for what they did to her people.

Harsh, formative lesson for young Dany.

[Fayenoor]

All fiction, no matter the medium, is written for an audience. It is designed to appeal to and inform that audience, to reflect and reinforce and challenge that audience. Some works can transcend that, others (particularly political satires) cannot be properly understood without putting yourself into that mindset and with those intended assumptions.

You literally can't try and claim that characters should only be judged based on the society in which they live, because their stories are told for this society, not theirs. By that ridiculous standard, stories like 1984 couldn't be seen as dystopias, because they're a celebration of the societal standards of the fictional society they describe.

When the entire point is how divorced from us those views are.

Period pieces need to stay within the ethical and moral boundaries of the period they are set against. Else it breaks the immersion.
Books are written for a specific audience, yet. But books are also bound by the period they are set in. You can judge it based on modern ideology. But the author isn't entitled to line up his storyline to match modern ethical boundaries.

Have you considered the fact that maybe the purpose of the show writers is to illustrate that the game really has no winner?

[Frontenac]

Here's how I explain Daenerys' mindset right now.

"I am the rightful Queen of Westeros, the Iron Throne is mine by right. But people do not trust me. I save them from the White Walkers, I want to free them from Cersei, but they are all flocking to her instead of me like the people of Meereen did. The commoners hate or fear me, the nobles who follow me do so because Jon follows me. And now I cannot trust Tyrion, Varys betrayed me, Missandei is dead. I cannot even trust my lover, because he has a better claim than me, or the people may believe he has, and he stupidly told that secret to Sansa when I begged him not to. I am alone. Even if I accept the reddition of the city, the great lords will still follow Jon because he has the better claim and he is loved by his people. He can even make his enemies join him. If I destroy the city, it will be a clear message to the nobles that they have the choice to support Jon and burn or to support me and live. Since I can't be loved, I will be feared and get what is MINE."

[Endus]

Here's how I explain Daenerys' mindset right now.

"I am the rightful Queen of Westeros, the Iron Throne is mine by right. But people do not trust me. I save them from the White Walkers, I want to free them from Cersei, but they are all flocking to her instead of me like the people of Meereen did. The commoners hate or fear me, the nobles who follow me do so because Jon follows me. And now I cannot trust Tyrion, Varys betrayed me, Missandei is dead. I cannot even trust my lover, because he has a better claim than me, or the people may believe he has, and he stupidly told that secret to Sansa when I begged him not to. I am alone. Even if I accept the reddition of the city, the great lords will still follow Jon because he has the better claim and he is loved by his people. He can even make his enemies join him. If I destroy the city, it will be a clear message to the nobles that they have the choice to support Jon and burn or to support me and live. Since I can't be loved, I will be feared and get what is MINE."

The problem is that "rightful Queen of Westeros" is directly contradicted by the fact that she knows Jon's Targaryen claim is more direct, and thus the better claim, than her own. He's the rightful King, if she thinks the Targaryens deserve to get it back. And the moment she found that out, she has done nothing but beg him to conceal it to protect her claim, because it isn't about being the "rightful" anything, it's all about her personal desire to sit the throne herself.

[Graeham II]

It's going to be interesting if Bran and Sansa emerge unscathed. Arguably they're the main reason as to why Dany went off the deep end by spreading the word of Jon's heritage. At least Sam had no maliciousness in it. I suppose Jon is stupid for not listening to Dany's concerns, too, but none of that excuses what she did.

With Cersei and Jaime gone, though, there isn't anyone left alive that I particularly care for.

[ablock87]

The Tarly's didnt do shit to her. So that is example #2. If we come up with 3 I think we have a trend.

The Tarly's were war enemies and fought against her, lost, then refused to submit to her rule. You can maybe argue that execution is too much and the show even plays at that a bit, but they were not innocent civilians, which is the whole point.

In the last episode, the enemy literally submits to her.

[Frontenac]

The problem is that "rightful Queen of Westeros" is directly contradicted by the fact that she knows Jon's Targaryen claim is more direct, and thus the better claim, than her own. He's the rightful King, if she thinks the Targaryens deserve to get it back. And the moment she found that out, she has done nothing but beg him to conceal it to protect her claim, because it isn't about being the "rightful" anything, it's all about her personal desire to sit the throne herself.

I don't know if it's fair to say "she knows." When Jon tells her, she does not believe it. As she said, this claim lies on what his brother and his best friend told him. But it does not matter to her if it's true or false. What matters is that others could support Jon's claim. And it does not matter either if Jon wants to be King or not. Therefore, she may still believe she's the rightful Queen.

[Thekri]

Here's how I explain Daenerys' mindset right now.

"I am the rightful Queen of Westeros, the Iron Throne is mine by right. But people do not trust me. I save them from the White Walkers, I want to free them from Cersei, but they are all flocking to her instead of me like the people of Meereen did. The commoners hate or fear me, the nobles who follow me do so because Jon follows me. And now I cannot trust Tyrion, Varys betrayed me, Missandei is dead. I cannot even trust my lover, because he has a better claim than me, or the people may believe he has, and he stupidly told that secret to Sansa when I begged him not to. I am alone. Even if I accept the reddition of the city, the great lords will still follow Jon because he has the better claim and he is loved by his people. He can even make his enemies join him. If I destroy the city, it will be a clear message to the nobles that they have the choice to support Jon and burn or to support me and live. Since I can't be loved, I will be feared and get what is MINE."

I blame it on low blood sugar from not eating for a few days. Episode 6 will start with Tyrion handing her a snickers and saying "You aren't you when you're hungry".

[Frontenac]

I blame it on low blood sugar from not eating for a few days. Episode 6 will start with Tyrion handing her a snickers and saying "You aren't you when you're hungry".

And then we'll see that Daenerys actually looks like Carol Channing.

[crakerjack]

Disagree. I knew she was meant to become the Mad Queen. And yeah, it happened in the matter of 2 episodes. My bets, in episode 6 she would be like super-mad queen.

I don't say being insane is out od her character. And you actually admit the pacing is wrong. Perspective doesn't really matter. You can say that about any randomly picked character that participated in any battle, or even Arya killing the Freys.

They definitely left some clues, that this is her destiny. Now look. She loses Jorah, dragon (in the most pathetic way possible) and Missandei. That brings her on the edge of sanity... well, okay, she thinks Jon betrayed her. She's lost and alone, I buy it (yet it wasn't presented really well). But why the hell they made her burn innocent people? Her entire journey was about fighting for a better world. Freeing the slaves, to commiserate with disadventaged and poor. I get it, they were Lannister's people...

I mean, nope. It simply has no sense. It just a sloppy writing. They run out of ideas. And Jon is the greatest confirmation to that. Since season 7 his character serves solely a plot device purpose, to push the Dany's metamorphosis. Not really sure why you can't see it's just lame writing. It would be something entirely different if her maddness deepened through 2 seasons. Or at least an entire 1 season. But it happened so drastically, it just feels fake. She looks at the Red Keep - you think she goes for Cersei - you're okay with the personal revange. But she burns civils - well, fuck it, I have nothing to lose. Nonsense.

I think what you're stuck up on is that you've always justified every action of Dany's until this point. You may or may not be a fan of hers, but you haven't had any qualms with her decisions until now. The thing is, her actions have never been with the people in mind first, she has always been a Me first kind of person. Her one and only goal throughout the entire series has been to sit on the throne. Abolishing slavery was just a good tactic to gain support and sack cities.

I say the pacing is poor because clearly a lot of people are under the misconception that she went mad in a matter of seconds/few moments. She has always had that side to her that she'll do whatever it takes to get her throne. You seriously don't think you'd have a different perception of Dany if they showed the opposing side of all her sieges like they did kings landing? Innocents died in every siege, but guess what, we never see it because we are seeing Dany under the light as the savior! Like one of the nobles of Meereen said, not all the slavers were bad people and were actually loved. Hell that one slave came into the temple requesting to become a slave again because his current life sucked. Dany has only forced her views/opinions on everyone because she's a tyrant. It's literally her way or the highway. So when all her advisers are dead and there's no one to check her wildest impulses, what do you think is eventually going to happen?

Also those aren't innocent people in kings landing. Unlike every other city she saved before, there was no one at kings landing who wanted to be saved. How do you think she perceives people flocking into the city to avoid being near Dany and her siege? Also notice how when Tyrion brings up the idea to hold off the siege to Dany, she neglectfully nods her head and gives no verbal agreement?

Lost all her advisers, had multiple setbacks and lost battles, Jon no longer loves her the way she wants him to, and she isn't sitting on the throne yet. Dany has always sat on the fence of morals, capable of falling either way. The way episodes were shot and the way they portrayed her made her out to be some hero, but had they done what they did w/ the most recent episode and shown the other side, I don't think there'd be such a backlash.

[Koriani]

Ridiculous post, most of the people who died due to Dany's influence prior to season 8 did some massively fucked up shit. The Tarlys are basically the only exception.

Definitely no slaughtering of innocents as evident in the last episode.

Actually the only "innocent" (nicer) person of the Tarlys is the Brother.

The Elder Father Tarly was a piece of crap.

Or does no one remember the fact that when his 2nd son (Sam) turned 18 he told him that if Sam didn't take the black (and leave his family's home in 24 hours) he would KILL HIS OWN SON and tell everyone it was a hunting accident. Because his son was fat and wasn't a good swordsman. That's it.

When his son showed back up with his "woman and child" - because the woman was a wildling - disowned him from the family entirely

I just keep seeing this over and over again and its making me twitch. Elder Tarly was no Ned Stark. He was no nice figure. He was, within his own family, worse than Tyrion Lannister. I was glad to see him burn. The only loss was Sam's decent elder brother.

And to me - never saw it as Danny being "mad." Just doing the same thing she had always done to any rulers who didn't bend the knee. That, at least, WAS exactly in character to the prior seasons. IF you are a ruler and you don't bow down to the Breaker of Chains - she isn't leaving you behind to one day come back again. She takes you out.

[Celista]

Actually the only "innocent" (nicer) person of the Tarlys is the Brother.

The Elder Father Tarly was a piece of crap.

Or does no one remember the fact that when his 2nd son (Sam) turned 18 he told him that if Sam didn't take the black (and leave his family's home in 24 hours) he would KILL HIS OWN SON and tell everyone it was a hunting accident. Because his son was fat and wasn't a good swordsman. That's it.

When his son showed back up with his "woman and child" - because the woman was a wildling - disowned him from the family entirely

I just keep seeing this over and over again and its making me twitch. Elder Tarly was no Ned Stark. He was no nice figure. He was, within his own family, worse than Tyrion Lannister. I was glad to see him burn. The only loss was Sam's decent elder brother.

And to me - never saw it as Danny being "mad." Just doing the same thing she had always done to any rulers who didn't bend the knee. That, at least, WAS exactly in character to the prior seasons. IF you are a ruler and you don't bow down to the Breaker of Chains - she isn't leaving you behind to one day come back again. She takes you out.

Didn't forget and your point is valid. But I don't think Dany was privy to information about how he treated his son.

[Zaktar]

Actually the only "innocent" (nicer) person of the Tarlys is the Brother.

The Elder Father Tarly was a piece of crap.

Or does no one remember the fact that when his 2nd son (Sam) turned 18 he told him that if Sam didn't take the black (and leave his family's home in 24 hours) he would KILL HIS OWN SON and tell everyone it was a hunting accident. Because his son was fat and wasn't a good swordsman. That's it.

When his son showed back up with his "woman and child" - because the woman was a wildling - disowned him from the family entirely

I just keep seeing this over and over again and its making me twitch. Elder Tarly was no Ned Stark. He was no nice figure. He was, within his own family, worse than Tyrion Lannister. I was glad to see him burn. The only loss was Sam's decent elder brother.

And to me - never saw it as Danny being "mad." Just doing the same thing she had always done to any rulers who didn't bend the knee. That, at least, WAS exactly in character to the prior seasons. IF you are a ruler and you don't bow down to the Breaker of Chains - she isn't leaving you behind to one day come back again. She takes you out.

She burned prisoners alive for disloyalty, prisoners are not so different from smallfolk in terms of your power over them. It was easy to not see this as an evil act because of who her targets were, but abusing people you have good reason to dislike still leaves you a monster. That they were such assholes was the spoonful of sugar hiding the bitterness of what an awful decision that was, and which road she was going down.

[Bodonius]

Wish for a 9. But wont happen

[Koriani]

I can only hope that what Ian McElhinney said has even a grain of truth to it: that a deal was struck for the books' release to be delayed until the show is finished

Not per GRRM. He posted himself, on his blog, refuting this and saying its beyond stupid that he'd do that. He's still working on six, he's not STARTED on 7. Nothing is done.

GRRM takes a LONG TIME to write a single book. Period. This was true years before the tv show was a gleam in HBOs' eye.

Book 3- 2000. Book 4-2005 Book 5-2011.

Getting longer each book.

This didn't change with the show - its just continued.

To me its just idiotic everyone coming up with conspiracy theories trying to say the tv show and anything about it, is what is keeping him from publishing his books. HA. NO. He just takes a really long time to write them.

So get ready for an equally long wait for 7 - which will be at LEAST a decade after the end of the show, at this rate. (Since he's not even done with 6 yet and each novel is taking longer than the last.)

And I have no doubt that while the "end result" in some of this may be the same - when Martin gets there, it will make sense and fit with his character development - whatever it ends up being. Just like the books have always been.

[GreenJesus]

For so many people to say similar things it no longer becomes a personal opinion but a mass collective of opinion which sways more towards fact.

For me it’s not even so much how what’s happened is bad. It’s how we’ve got there. The show is rushed whether you agree or not, it’s shown in nearly every episode this season and some of the writing is just bad.

Does anyone have a problem with Arya killing the NK? Not really, I didn’t see that coming and thought it was a shocker (in a good way). Do we all have a problem not finding literally ANYTHING out about the NK? Yes. Regardless of being in the books or not, he’s in this show and has been forever and we’ve been made to fear him and understand he’s the single biggest threat within this universe. We NEEDED dialect between himself and Bran, we needed to understand more about their connection. The dothraki on the starting line … No one knew the red witch was coming and they had no Dragon Glass weaponry (or rather I couldn’t see any), she came out to light their swords up just for it to look cool. Without her there they were literally useless. Lazy writing.

Sneak attack or not with the pirate taking out a dragon, so he can solo this dragon with 3 perfect shots and then scare the remaining 1 off but an entire fleet can’t hit it in the next episode?

At the end of the 4th episode, Danny stands in front of Kings Landing with about 20 Unsullied, the dragon some ways behind and Tyrion, he tries to persuade his sister who he knows is as evil as they come and cares for no one but her children to give up, she beheads Missandei, Danny looks angry……. Next episode starts and Danny, Tyrion and crew are back at Dragonstone??? So we’re made to believe they all just walked off, 25 of them walking back from KL to DS (imagine that walk). We’re made to believe Cersei just let these small few leave with 200 of her army aiming arrows at them? She just wouldn’t. It’s stupid.

Everything just feels either rushed to make points or not very well thought out. They can throw as much money as they want into the CGI and the production, it looks great but the story and plot is just lacking and rushed and it’s a real shame after so many years of great TV for it to come to this sort of end. It’s even more of a shame to know D&D have signed up to make another 3 Star Wars films which no one is asking for which in turn makes them want to rush something that people actually give a shit about and finish it properly in due time with a great story end.

Who really gives a fuck what happens next? I’ve felt nothing for any character this season, I don’t feel connected to anyone, whilst in the past I’ve felt emotionally attached and invested in SOOOO many.

I agree. It just sucked how so many plot threads involving the Night King were ignored and Arya just put a dagger in everything without any resolution. So much potential just wasted. Could have lost the battle at Winterfell, but retreated to Riverun or something. Now the Night King will just be a fairy tail made up by the Starks.

And how did Little Finger just get killed so easily like that? They had no evidence to prove he did those things and he would have been clever enough to come up with excuses for the other lords in the room. It was a clown court.

[uopayroll]

And if Dany burned Cersei for refusing to bend the knee then it would be 'fine' and in character. I could also accept her burning down the red keep after the soldiers surrendered to kill Cersei (and some innocent people along the way).
The problem I, and many others, have is that she proceeds to murder a million innocent civilians which IS out of character for her.
Burn the leaders, not civilians.

You were not paying attention to everything then. She wanted to go the fear and revenge route from the start. Tyrion, Varys, etc.. kept convincing her along the way to go the love route. The love route kept failing, at least in her eyes. Then she saw Jon winning the love route instead of her, and the minute she told him "fear it is", you knew she was going to go all death and destruction. An entire city and a million? Maybe not, but heat of the moment, she did. Or was it heredity that she burnt them all? Or both?

The dragons have shown to be smart (one of the main points in the episode Tyrion takes the chains off the two dragons) and do their own thing if they really disagreed with their mother as they have shown. Drogon went along with the torching of King's Landing, so he also was fine with it all (or maybe all he saw was a bunch of T-Bone steaks running around, who knows).

So maybe torching the whole city was a bit excessive, but not out of nowhere. A few more days to see how the aftermath is handled by everyone in the show, I can already see this forum not being able to handle what happens Sunday.

[MatadorMedia]

I agree. It just sucked how so many plot threads involving the Night King were ignored and Arya just put a dagger in everything without any resolution. So much potential just wasted. Could have lost the battle at Winterfell, but retreated to Riverun or something. Now the Night King will just be a fairy tail made up by the Starks.

You know what makes it even worse. The move Arya used to kill the Night King was lifted from Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter... SERIOUSLY.

[uopayroll]

Except they didn't, really. HBO were ready to give D&D the money and time to make a longer season but D&D apparently thought 6 was enough.

I thought I had read or seen somewhere, before season 7, that they said the whole series was going to be 73 episodes from the start and that is why the last two seasons were 7 and 6 episodes respectively?