[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[GreenJesus]

I thought I had read or seen somewhere, before season 7, that they said the whole series was going to be 73 episodes from the start and that is why the last two seasons were 7 and 6 episodes respectively?

I think the actors are paid by episode so it is probably cheaper to do fewer episodes and just wrap it up with fewer episodes. Can't really imagine why else they would have rushed it so hard. It is one of the biggest TV productions ever done with world wide acclaim. There are tourist tours all over Croatia and souvenir shops full of people wanting to see the places used in filming of GoT. Why move on to Star wars????

[Celista]

You know what makes it even worse. The move Arya used to kill the Night King was lifted from Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter... SERIOUSLY.

Hey now, I loved that movie. Lol

[GreenJesus]

You know what makes it even worse. The move Arya used to kill the Night King was lifted from Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter... SERIOUSLY.

I mean it wasn't a bad move.. But it honestly would have been better to do Lich King move of "There must always be a lich king" but it takes a thousand years to gain power again or something, versus "aaaand... its gone". Imagine Dany becoming the Night Queen with Drogon as Syndragosa!

[Koriani]

I started re-watching from the start about two weeks ago knowing how this last season is going, and nothing in season 8 feels like it is coming out of nowhere. Having not read the books in a long time (because a new one has not come out in a long time) I am keeping just the show within the show and not having the book seep in. Arya, Bronn, Tyrion, Jaime, Jon , Danny, Bran, Sansa, Varys, etc all pretty much stayed in character. A couple things may need a bit of suspension of belief, but nothing is out of left field.

Some people just cannot separate the show from the books, and some just jump on the bandwagon of this thread and repeat the same complaints.

And I'm feeling the opposite after starting to rewatch from Season 1. I'm seeing more evidence of bad writing negating earlier development.

Perception and opinion are fun like that.

I do see more this time around of other "foreshadowing" and other characters developments/arcs etc. being hinted at from Season 1-2 that DID play out. But I'm also seeing more evidence of what got tossed aside/ignored entirely.

Having said that - I am one of the "its not that dany burned the city - its that the setup was rushed and thus, fails due to bad writing/decision making in Season 8." And not saying "Dany's shift makes no sense at all."

~
And the best, prime, example of bad plot device-writing - the Scorpions. They didn't even FIRE?! They weren't even MANNED?! Like two ships took potshots at Drogon from the first fly-in over the ships - and then... no one else ever did. There were unburned Scorpions in /tons/ of the shots - sitting there, still as death. Not turning, not firing, just sitting as if they were just statues.

At the very least we should have had myriads of shots flying wild and missing. We should have seen them attempting to turn and fire. We should have seen giant arrows falling short and flying wild. ANYTHING.

But no - Drogon fires a single line of ships, out of an entire fleet, and apparently every other ships' personnel were all struck with +100 dragon fear and could do nothing but wait to burn. Same with whomever was manning the dozens to hundreds of crossbows on the wall. Just abandoned at the beginning of the fight, because they certainly weren't moving in any of the shots.

"Worst Writing Ever"

I can defend some of the rest of it. But that, to me, shows me how little thought or care these guys bothered to put into this last season.

[GreenJesus]

And I'm feeling the opposite after starting to rewatch from Season 1. I'm seeing more evidence of bad writing negating earlier development.

Perception and opinion are fun like that.

I do see more this time around of other "foreshadowing" and other characters developments/arcs etc. being hinted at from Season 1-2 that DID play out. But I'm also seeing more evidence of what got tossed aside/ignored entirely.

Having said that - I am one of the "its not that dany burned the city - its that the setup was rushed and thus, fails due to bad writing/decision making in Season 8." And not saying "Dany's shift makes no sense at all."

~
And the best, prime, example of bad plot device-writing - the Scorpions. They didn't even FIRE?! They weren't even MANNED?! Like two ships took potshots at Drogon from the first fly-in over the ships - and then... no one else ever did. There were unburned Scorpions in /tons/ of the shots - sitting there, still as death. Not turning, not firing, just sitting as if they were just statues.

At the very least we should have had myriads of shots flying wild and missing. We should have seen them attempting to turn and fire. We should have seen giant arrows falling short and flying wild. ANYTHING.

But no - Drogon fires a single line of ships, out of an entire fleet, and apparently every other ships' personnel were all struck with +100 dragon fear and could do nothing but wait to burn. Same with whomever was manning the dozens to hundreds of crossbows on the wall. Just abandoned at the beginning of the fight, because they certainly weren't moving in any of the shots.

"Worst Writing Ever"

I can defend some of the rest of it. But that, to me, shows me how little thought or care these guys bothered to put into this last season.

Yep I rewatched the episode and all of the scorpions on the wall of King's landing were pointing Up-left and were unmanned/unmoving. It's like they just copy pasted an image.

[Jastall]

The uprising against him was the commoners and the houses.... the houses won't sit back and let her rule after this and you NEED the houses as evidenced by her father.

- - - Updated - - -



.....there are commoners outside of KL

Source for commoners rising up against Aerys and making a difference?

[Celista]

I think the actors are paid by episode so it is probably cheaper to do fewer episodes and just wrap it up with fewer episodes. Can't really imagine why else they would have rushed it so hard. It is one of the biggest TV productions ever done with world wide acclaim. There are tourist tours all over Croatia and souvenir shops full of people wanting to see the places used in filming of GoT. Why move on to Star wars????

I had a feeling that it had something to do with GRRM and overall costs. They made some big CGI cuts for that reason.

Also I saw an interview with Peter Dinklage, in the interview they asked him if there's anything he'll miss about the show and in front of the show's creators was like, "nope ready to move on" lol. He strikes me as a little drama queen, saw he was moved to first actor listed instead of alphabetical order a few seasons ago. Sounds to me like at least 1-2 actors are being a handful, two other actors dated and it ended badly and therefore refused to be in a scene together the whole series lol. Fuck I'd hate dealing with so many massive egos...

[GreenJesus]

I had a feeling that it had something to do with GRRM and overall costs. They made some big CGI cuts for that reason.

Also I saw an interview with Peter Dinklage, in the interview they asked him if there's anything he'll miss about the show and in front of the show's creators was like, "nope ready to move on" lol. He strikes me as a little drama queen, saw he was moved to first actor listed instead of alphabetical order a few seasons ago. Sounds to me like at least 1-2 actors are being a handful, two other actors dated and it ended badly and therefore refused to be in a scene together the whole series lol. Fuck I'd hate dealing with so many massive egos...

Well he was upset with how his character was developed in an interview. He used to be super smart and now he's a fucking idiot. I wouldn't want to play that character anymore either. For example, he was complaining how his character put women and children in a crypt against a necromancer that brings dead people back to life.. like why?

[Brubear]

There were no warning signs. Every single instance of her burning someone has been because they are either truly evil people or they have done her wrong. Every one. You MIGHT make an exception with when she burned the Meereenese noblemen, but everything she did came from a good place.

If her arc involved some more actual grey area, this could have been great. She needed more drama with her council where they go "This is morally wrong." Her heel turn is just not done right at all, and the vast majority of fans are in agreement. I'm not going to argue how killing evil slavemasters that mutilate little boys and crucify little girls is somehow proper foreshadowing for the mass murder of tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of innocents.

Because the Tarly's refusing to bend the knee made them truly evil people.

Notice how she never takes prisoners and gives them a chance to reform? It's always "become my vassal or die". There's a lot of issues with how D&D wrote her slip into madness (and just wrote things in general), but lets not act like she's been consistently a righteous savior this entire time when ever since she landed in Westeros it's been pretty apparent that she's becoming more and more like her ancestors with her ruthlessness.

Though I do agree that D&D did an awful job with her heel turn. I can definitely see how it could have been done well (and probably will be done a lot better by Martin), but the plot points have been so rushed and the writing so awful (they threw all of the internal logic that made the show what it was out the window for the rule of cool) that it made it feel so jarring.

[GreenJesus]

Because the Tarly's refusing to bend the knee made them truly evil people.

Notice how she never takes prisoners and gives them a chance to reform? It's always "become my vassal or die". There's a lot of issues with how D&D wrote her slip into madness (and just wrote things in general), but lets not act like she's been consistently a righteous savior this entire time when ever since she landed in Westeros it's been pretty apparent that she's becoming more and more like her ancestors with her ruthlessness.

Though I do agree that D&D did an awful job with her heel turn. I can definitely see how it could have been done well (and probably will be done a lot better by Martin), but the plot points have been so rushed and the writing so awful (they threw all of the internal logic that made the show what it was out the window for the rule of cool) that it made it feel so jarring.

That is pretty normal for a Monarch to do though? An enemy combatant is captured and if they refuse to bend the knee then they get executed. (old days not today). That isn't evil. A lot better than "no survivors" which happened often around the world. Killing all the men and rape the women was a common occurrence. Capturing soldiers and allowing them to bend the knee instead of killing them is pretty merciful.

[Endus]

That is pretty normal for a Monarch to do though? An enemy combatant is captured and if they refuse to bend the knee then they get executed. (old days not today). That isn't evil.

Not in medieval history, no. They'd be ransomed back, generally, and they were never expected to "bend the knee", not unless their monarch had been deposed and they were being obliged to respect the new monarchy (not the case, at the time it happened to the Tarlys).

What the Tarlys did was remain loyal, rather than turning traitor. It isn't in any way the "wrong thing to do". It's what everyone was expected to do, what honor demands of them.

Otherwise, their loyalty means nothing, anyway, and asking them to bend the knee is meaningless to begin with.

[Nebron]

I think what you're stuck up on is that you've always justified every action of Dany's until this point. You may or may not be a fan of hers, but you haven't had any qualms with her decisions until now. The thing is, her actions have never been with the people in mind first, she has always been a Me first kind of person. Her one and only goal throughout the entire series has been to sit on the throne. Abolishing slavery was just a good tactic to gain support and sack cities.

I say the pacing is poor because clearly a lot of people are under the misconception that she went mad in a matter of seconds/few moments. She has always had that side to her that she'll do whatever it takes to get her throne. You seriously don't think you'd have a different perception of Dany if they showed the opposing side of all her sieges like they did kings landing? Innocents died in every siege, but guess what, we never see it because we are seeing Dany under the light as the savior! Like one of the nobles of Meereen said, not all the slavers were bad people and were actually loved. Hell that one slave came into the temple requesting to become a slave again because his current life sucked. Dany has only forced her views/opinions on everyone because she's a tyrant. It's literally her way or the highway. So when all her advisers are dead and there's no one to check her wildest impulses, what do you think is eventually going to happen?

Also those aren't innocent people in kings landing. Unlike every other city she saved before, there was no one at kings landing who wanted to be saved. How do you think she perceives people flocking into the city to avoid being near Dany and her siege? Also notice how when Tyrion brings up the idea to hold off the siege to Dany, she neglectfully nods her head and gives no verbal agreement?

Lost all her advisers, had multiple setbacks and lost battles, Jon no longer loves her the way she wants him to, and she isn't sitting on the throne yet. Dany has always sat on the fence of morals, capable of falling either way. The way episodes were shot and the way they portrayed her made her out to be some hero, but had they done what they did w/ the most recent episode and shown the other side, I don't think there'd be such a backlash.

I don't think you truly understand me. I absolutely buy the udea of her becoming the Mad Queen in the end of her road. I absolutely buy the idea that everything she does is made only because she wants the throne so badly. I absolutely buy the idea of her going mad because she has no support anymore. And I also think that majority, if not everyone was aware of her destiny. People aren't confused of her going mad. People are confused how could that have happened so quickly.

Now, let's analyze it. Throughout her story in Essos she frees the slaves and kills the masters. She changes the entire contient becoming Mhysa and making allies to win the throne. True. Sometimes she went savage. True.

Now she lands in Westeros - she loses Tyrells and Dorne because of Tyrion's mistakes. She burns Tarly's. She decides to help Jon and loses her Dragon, once again - lazy writing. She gets in forbidden, incest love with her nephew - Jon. She arrives in Winterfell, where she is not welcomed warmly. People are scared, because she is a foreigner and Targaryen in the same time. She loses a lot of her Unsullied, and all the Dothrakis (which appears not to be true, since the show up in episode 5 in great numbers). She loses Jorah, and then randomly Rhaegal is getting ambushed with Missandei captured and later killed.

This might be enough to melt your mental health like an ice cube. She wants the throne so badly. But once again. It is all written very poorly. And that's why fans are confused. The city surrenders. She looks at the Red Keep. You think like "yes baby, go for it. Kill the bitch". And then she fries the poor, innocent people. Okay... okay... she has nothing to lose. But why? WHY? Simply, because wrtiers wanted so badly to make her look bad and villainous. Because they had an idea in mind that she has to end being mad. And that was like the only purpose of this entire episode. Almost every character acts to make this goal possible. And this is what is bad. Everything is presented like nobody likes Dany - that's okay. But Jon is being diminished to some pawn of hers. He's freaking dumb, but he's actually the main character - isn't he?

So to sum up. I really buy the idea of her being mad. But she went from 2/10 on the TargaryenMadScale to 10 since the beginning of episode 4 to the moment she burns the enitre city. And I really do bet my money that in episode 6 she's going to be grotesque-mad. Insanity will be there, in her eyes. She will be blind and deaf to anything.

I don't think her going mad or not sitting on the throne is out of her character - predictable but satisfying, since that was her character after all. But in such a way. In such horrible wiritng? Don't forget she had a power to destroy the city, nuke the enitre Golden Company. Her dragon would even survive the Hiroshima nuclear attacks, because the plot armor is so thick. But it won't survive in episode 6, she neither. My bet.

And I don't think it's the matter of her being hero or villian. I'm not entirely sure why are you so stubborn to admit the plot and writing is simply terrible. And make her feel really grotesque-mad instead of you being rewarded with her insanity and so that it could be justified. Meh.

[crakerjack]

I don't think you truly understand me. I absolutely buy the udea of her becoming the Mad Queen in the end of her road. I absolutely buy the idea that everything she does is made only because she wants the throne so badly. I absolutely buy the idea of her going mad because she has no support anymore. And I also think that majority, if not everyone was aware of her destiny. People aren't confused of her going mad. People are confused how could that have happened so quickly.

Now, let's analyze it. Throughout her story in Essos she frees the slaves and kills the masters. She changes the entire contient becoming Mhysa and making allies to win the throne. True. Sometimes she went savage. True.

Now she lands in Westeros - she loses Tyrells and Dorne because of Tyrion's mistakes. She burns Tarly's. She decides to help Jon and loses her Dragon, once again - lazy writing. She gets in forbidden, incest love with her nephew - Jon. She arrives in Winterfell, where she is not welcomed warmly. People are scared, because she is a foreigner and Targaryen in the same time. She loses a lot of her Unsullied, and all the Dothrakis (which appears not to be true, since the show up in episode 5 in great numbers). She loses Jorah, and then randomly Rhaegal is getting ambushed with Missandei captured and later killed.

This might be enough to melt your mental health like an ice cube. She wants the throne so badly. But once again. It is all written very poorly. And that's why fans are confused. The city surrenders. She looks at the Red Keep. You think like "yes baby, go for it. Kill the bitch". And then she fries the poor, innocent people. Okay... okay... she has nothing to lose. But why? WHY? Simply, because wrtiers wanted so badly to make her look bad and villainous. Because they had an idea in mind that she has to end being mad. And that was like the only purpose of this entire episode. Almost every character acts to make this goal possible. And this is what is bad. Everything is presented like nobody likes Dany - that's okay. But Jon is being diminished to some pawn of hers. He's freaking dumb, but he's actually the main character - isn't he?

So to sum up. I really buy the idea of her being mad. But she went from 2/10 on the TargaryenMadScale to 10 since the beginning of episode 4 to the moment she burns the enitre city. And I really do bet my money that in episode 6 she's going to be grotesque-mad. Insanity will be there, in her eyes. She will be blind and deaf to anything.

I don't think her going mad or not sitting on the throne is out of her character - predictable but satisfying, since that was her character after all. But in such a way. In such horrible wiritng? Don't forget she had a power to destroy the city, nuke the enitre Golden Company. Her dragon would even survive the Hiroshima nuclear attacks, because the plot armor is so thick. But it won't survive in episode 6, she neither. My bet.

And I don't think it's the matter of her being hero or villian. I'm not entirely sure why are you so stubborn to admit the plot and writing is simply terrible. And make her feel really grotesque-mad instead of you being rewarded with her insanity and so that it could be justified. Meh.

I'll agree with you that the writing isn't the same as it once was and they could have paced out her madness better, but I don't believe the writing was horrible. I don't think the pacing is unacceptable. I guess I've just accepted her madness because I knew she was capable of it the moment she burned the witch alive at the end of season 1. The reason I don't see her killing everyone in kings landing as over the top evil, is simply because we see it from every perspective and we're like vary's in the sense that we know everything. We aren't fully aware of how well Dany knows kings landing and how well she knows the peoples trust. For all Dany knows/believes, the people of kings landing love Cercei and see Dany as an evil tyrant. From our perspectives as the viewer, we know the people of kings landing don't care who sits on the throne, but again, Dany doesn't know that. So when she's introduced to a new scene of people scrambling into the city rather than out, we can't assume she'll address it the way she has prior sieges. A new scenario presented a new side of Dany, which is why I'm not overly shocked. She has never laid siege to a city with her dragons until now, but also subsequently never laid siege to a city that didn't have a huge portion of the city fleeing to her.

Sorry if I've gotten a little pushy with my view or shutting yours down, I've done myself a disservice by going on too many of these GoT threads arguing with people about pacing or whether Dany is acting out of character. Atleast we both concur that the pacing and writing isn't as good as it could have been. I agree that they should have done a few more seasons to really showcase her downfall, but I don't necessarily hate it.

[Moonstream]

I'm in the "someone who thought it was inevitable that Dany was the villain all along" group but still think how the writers got there was an extreme let down and horribly written.

If only we got another season or at least characters that actually acted like themselves; we could have ended up in the same place and it all would have been fine. That's the frustrating part.

Cersei could have had one last trick up her sleeve (that made the siege not a total steamroll, golden company actually doing something?) and made you care about Dany/Drogons' safety for a few minutes (wing or tail cut or something?) .... that would have been great.

Missandei should have had the same fate she did, only in this episode. The bells start to ring, everyones surrendering, but there's cersai and co with Missandei in the castle<que beheading scene> maybe with another ballista (Euron?) from a tower on the castle shot her way NOW Dany goes crazy <que city being destroyed scenes> also <que Dany theme music, but slightly off and broken>.

Cersai could have survived the siege and been defiantly drug out in front of Dany/Drogon. Jaime breaks through the crowd rushes to her and upon seeing him <que breakdown under the castle scene> only they get torched instead of smashed by bricks.

End of episode.

Etc etc.

I could go on but whats the point. What made game of thrones a great show to watch was them making you actually care about the characters (even the one episode characters) and the surprising, well thought out plot and twists. This example is neither of those but sounds a hell of a lot better than what we got. Could care less about any of them anymore.

Would have been nice to not have Tyrion turning into a dumbass the last couple episodes (seasons?)

Varys not suddenly turning into a dumbass. I mean really, he was the mastermind of it all and a major player the whole show....a little effort to make us care about his death would have been appreciated. At least with Little Finger it was a shocker and a good way for him to go out (outwitted.)

Plus many more....

It really was a disservice to these amazing actors to have their characters butchered the way they were; who you can see from their interviews (with the small amount they can say) that they agree.

It's just so disappointing, that it's sickening. Just go read/watch the plots of old episodes and it's hard to believe its the same show. (even a few of the more recent ones Queens Justice and Spoils of War, anyone?)

I really hope I have to eat these words on Sunday but my hopes are very low.

- - - Updated - - -

My above post isn't specified at anyone, I was just sick of trying to catch up in this thread and had to get that out there.

[Koriani]

ProTip guys, get incredibly baked before the last episode and just enjoy the pretty cinematics, this show clearly isnt worth thinking hard about anymore.

Fingers crossed these bumblefucks dont ruin Star Wars, although I'm not holding out hope.

I do that for all the episodes - and yea, after Battle of Winterfell - I checked out of the season too. Did enjoy the pretty cinematography of 5 and I'm a huge dragon fan (decades before GoT) so more dragon is good dragon to me!

Now I'm just dreading these guys have Star Wars. I've never not looked forwards to a Star Wars movie before, actually. This is a new for me... and it sucks.

[Sooba]

Dany has consistently placed a great deal of importance on the way in which she has gained power. And she has consistently paid a heavy price for doing so. Had she not cared about the people, she could have stormed King's Landing shortly after returning to Westeros.

If she done so

• she would not have lost her allies in the Tyrells and the Sand Snakes
• she would not have lost a big chunk of her fleet to Euron at Casterly Rock
• Cersei would not have been able to build any scorpions or equip the iron fleet with them (which ultimately cost her Rhaegal and Missandei)

Secondly, instead of pressing her attack on King's Landing after decimating the Lannister army on the road between Highgarden and King's Landing, she instead opted to save the world and sent her army North. She lost a big chunk of her army, and again, gave Cersei time to bolster her defenses (which ultimately cost her Rhaegal and Missandei).

Dany has not "consistently paid a heavy price" for any of her conquest choices. On a personal level, she's lost two dragons, one of which could only be attributed to sudden physical blindness in the service of plot. That's it. Even Jorah was lost in the service of winning the support of the North to her cause. She's also had disruptions in allied Kingdoms that she doesn't even care about. woohoo. (Kingdoms that were just handed to her on a platter, I might add.) She has not "sacrificed" anything for "freedom" or to "help" people. Everything she's had to "sacrifice" has been handed to her either by other people or fortunate genetics.

Holy shit, if that's all you can take from what I wrote, then that's a massive failure on your part. If anything Dany better fits the definition of an abusee getting her own back against her abusers.

She started with nothing and was abused first by her brother, then Khal Drogo, then Qarth, then Master Kraznys, then the masters of Astapor, the sons of the Harpy, the Dothraki (again), then the masters of slavers bay (again), then Cersei and Euron, the Night King, Cersei and Euron (again).

Each and every time she came out victorious, but really, at this point, it amazes that anyone is surprised that she feels justified in retaliating.

And FYI, I am not condoning her actions, I am explaining them.

None of which has anything to do with the people of King's Landing. You're still trying to claim that she was "retaliating" against the (horrible actions?) of the people of King's Landing, which is absolute bullshit. They were surrendering for heaven's sake. The people of KL did absolutely nothing to "deserve" her rampage. Their "utter selfishness" and other nonsense are qualities that you've foisted on them that have nothing to do with reality. (Even if they did, she wouldn't know, she hasn't interacted with the people of King's Landing.)

Yes, Dany had some rough moments with some folks in the past, mostly her brother. But she had her moment of revenge against all of them, and that's ultimately an irrelevant red herring. You don't justify the actions of a vicious abuser against helpless people by saying "oh well, I'm going to claim they're jerks without cause and she's been mistreated before." That's still abuser-level logic. It's asinine. I don't care if you think you're "condoning" her actions or not. You're attempting to say that they're justified, which is simply foolish on its face. It simply was monstrous behaviour with no justification, and honestly on a scale that is simply way too hamfisted and rushed wrt her arc in the show.

The only "massive failure" here is your claim.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think you truly understand me. I absolutely buy the udea of her becoming the Mad Queen in the end of her road. I absolutely buy the idea that everything she does is made only because she wants the throne so badly. I absolutely buy the idea of her going mad because she has no support anymore. And I also think that majority, if not everyone was aware of her destiny. People aren't confused of her going mad. People are confused how could that have happened so quickly.

Now, let's analyze it. Throughout her story in Essos she frees the slaves and kills the masters. She changes the entire contient becoming Mhysa and making allies to win the throne. True. Sometimes she went savage. True.

Now she lands in Westeros - she loses Tyrells and Dorne because of Tyrion's mistakes. She burns Tarly's. She decides to help Jon and loses her Dragon, once again - lazy writing. She gets in forbidden, incest love with her nephew - Jon. She arrives in Winterfell, where she is not welcomed warmly. People are scared, because she is a foreigner and Targaryen in the same time. She loses a lot of her Unsullied, and all the Dothrakis (which appears not to be true, since the show up in episode 5 in great numbers). She loses Jorah, and then randomly Rhaegal is getting ambushed with Missandei captured and later killed.

This might be enough to melt your mental health like an ice cube. She wants the throne so badly. But once again. It is all written very poorly. And that's why fans are confused. The city surrenders. She looks at the Red Keep. You think like "yes baby, go for it. Kill the bitch". And then she fries the poor, innocent people. Okay... okay... she has nothing to lose. But why? WHY? Simply, because wrtiers wanted so badly to make her look bad and villainous. Because they had an idea in mind that she has to end being mad. And that was like the only purpose of this entire episode. Almost every character acts to make this goal possible. And this is what is bad. Everything is presented like nobody likes Dany - that's okay. But Jon is being diminished to some pawn of hers. He's freaking dumb, but he's actually the main character - isn't he?

So to sum up. I really buy the idea of her being mad. But she went from 2/10 on the TargaryenMadScale to 10 since the beginning of episode 4 to the moment she burns the enitre city. And I really do bet my money that in episode 6 she's going to be grotesque-mad. Insanity will be there, in her eyes. She will be blind and deaf to anything.

I don't think her going mad or not sitting on the throne is out of her character - predictable but satisfying, since that was her character after all. But in such a way. In such horrible wiritng? Don't forget she had a power to destroy the city, nuke the enitre Golden Company. Her dragon would even survive the Hiroshima nuclear attacks, because the plot armor is so thick. But it won't survive in episode 6, she neither. My bet.

And I don't think it's the matter of her being hero or villian. I'm not entirely sure why are you so stubborn to admit the plot and writing is simply terrible. And make her feel really grotesque-mad instead of you being rewarded with her insanity and so that it could be justified. Meh.

And this is ultimately the problem. It took MKA decades to descend to the level he was at by the time Jaime decorated his back with a sword. Even if someone wants to quibble with the numbers on your

TargaryenMadScale

(which I love by the way), there's simply no getting around the fact that she progresses multiple stages up the scale within a single episode, any one of which should have taken years or a far more personally devastating events than the populace surrendering to occur.

[Celista]

Well he was upset with how his character was developed in an interview. He used to be super smart and now he's a fucking idiot. I wouldn't want to play that character anymore either. For example, he was complaining how his character put women and children in a crypt against a necromancer that brings dead people back to life.. like why?

Eh it's more than that I suspect. Being pissed about the writing is understandable though.

[Shadowferal]

Well he was upset with how his character was developed in an interview. He used to be super smart and now he's a fucking idiot. I wouldn't want to play that character anymore either. For example, he was complaining how his character put women and children in a crypt against a necromancer that brings dead people back to life.. like why?

I saw that interview. He had a baffled look on his face "How and why did I get so stupid?"

[ohiostate124]

I saw that interview. He had a baffled look on his face "How and why did I get so stupid?"

I still don’t understand how that made it into the episode. The season has had writing issues but damn.....

[GreenJesus]

I saw that interview. He had a baffled look on his face "How and why did I get so stupid?"

Why didn't they just send them all south or something? It was already known to be a coin flip if they could win. I just find it funny that they wanted everyone including the women and children to be brought to winterfell "for protection" but it turned out that winterfell was the only place that got hit.. lol. Why bring your family TO the warzone?