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  1. #1

    How come BfA is worse than Legion?

    I felt so comfy in Legion, the zones, the music, the quests, the class hubs, world quests, artifact had good fun skills, Demon Hunters, mythic+ dungeons were fun, Illidan and cool story stuff to this uninteresting bland lore killer expansion.

    I can't believe this, it is actually worse than WoD. I can't find joy in this pile of crap. It's not even Warcraft anymore, at least prev expansions felt Warcraftish. This is just some really bad game.

  2. #2
    Are you serious? According to FBs here it is the second coming of WotLk

  3. #3
    Herald of the Titans TigTone's Avatar
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    They failed to replace the whole left by the artifact weapons which imo were one of the best things ever added to wow.

  4. #4
    oh how soon people seem to forget about legendaries in legion, that most speccs / classes couldnt function without BiS ones. And people also seem to forget about the ridicilous RNG they added for artifact relics in the ship.

    The only thing that Bfa is worse than Legion, is the story (lore). It has turned to absolute garbage, with cheesy clichés.

  5. #5
    They took away 3 spec specific systems (artifacts, legendaries and tier sets) and replaced them with azerite. Azerite turned out to be a much worse version of artifacts progression wise. Every new season meant you lost a few tiers of azerite that you had already grinded for and gaining a higher ilvl piece also meant you’d lose a tier or two. Then they implemented the GCD changes which slowed down classes a little bit. On top of all that they took baseline artifact abilities and nerfed them while adding them in as talents which meant we actually lost 1 talent rather than gain anything. Overall this just led to class design being extremely bland compared to legion.

    Then they added two new forms of content which were islands and warfronts. Islands are basically instanced world quests which is boring and warfronts are so easy they’re afkable. Unfortunately they also put the AP grind primarily behind islands as opposed to dungeons like in legion.

    So let’s go over that:

    1. Removed tier sets, artifacts and legendaries.

    2. Added azerite armor. Artifact weapons had more passive/actives than all 3 slots of azerite combined.

    3. Removed talents in order to put previously baseline artifact abilities in the talent rows.

    4. Implemented the GCD changes.

    5. Decided not to focus on class design. They stated in multiple interviews that class design will not be a main focus in BfA.

    Due to all of that class design is in a really bad state. Some classes feel very incoherent, some feel extremely slow, some are alright, etc. Legion class design was horrible as well until you got your artifact and decent legendaries, in BfA it’s always horrible as there’s nothing like artifacts/legendaries to fill the gaps in rotations and such.

    The writing is also really bad. Legions writing was at least mostly coherent and made enough sense while BFAs writing is so damn bad that the writers have to keep telling the players what’s happening with the plot IE “sylvanas isn’t garrosh 2.0”, “tyrande already got her revenge”, etc.
    Last edited by Taeldorian; 2019-05-18 at 03:44 AM.

  6. #6
    These two reasons mostly:

    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post

    2. Added azerite armor. Artifact weapons had more passive/actives than all 3 slots of azerite combined.

    3. Removed talents in order to put previously baseline artifact abilities in the talent rows.

  7. #7
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    2. Added azerite armor. Artifact weapons had more passive/actives than all 3 slots of azerite combined.
    actuallty this is not correct.
    the artifacts when you go back, actuallty had very few talents that did anything interesting, most of them were just passive increases to a minor thing.

    Example

    Going from the starting one, then a full clockwise around back to the middle one, bottom left gold, then the right side ,bold is gold

    Activie artifact ability
    5% damage
    8% buff to demonic empowerment
    35% crit chance of imps
    40% healing of soul link
    every 100 imp firebolts cast makes your next shadowbolt deal double damage not very impressive, literally just "once in awhile your shadowbolt does double damage" which shadowbolt was our lowest dps contribution
    shadow bolt crit chance 20%
    imps firebolts do 32% more
    WHen your imps die or expire, your other demons gain 1% damage, stacking up to 10 times agian not very impressive, literally just 10% damage on your felguard, and the odd 1-3% on your summoned imps/dreadstalker
    doom has a chance to deal double damage
    hand of guldan 20% more damage
    demonwrath does 40% more
    cooldown of unending resolve reduced by 40 seconds
    Shadowbolt and demonwrath have a chance to do an aoe ability over 6 seconds at the target location cool, but its literally just "chance to deal some aoe damage"
    soul link reduces more damage when below 35% hp
    dreadstalkers crit by 20%
    doom damage by 40%
    5% damage
    10% damage and stamina
    20% felguard damage
    dreadbite increases damage taken by wild imps firebolt by 10%
    demonic empowerment has a 50% chance to deal damage for every demon you have this one actuallty changed up the meta, and gave us a meme spec, where we just spammed demonic empowerment
    Demonic empowerment>shadowbolt>demonic empowerment>shadowbolt---- over and over.
    your abilities have a chance to give you 18,700 int for 10 seconds (at 50 ranks)


    so really only the demonic empowerment 50% chance, the main ability, and maybe the "unending resolve reduced by 40 seconds" are the only ones that change your playstyle, compared to the azerite traits we have MANY different play styles.


    this may be a demo only thing, idk other specs as much, but i hate when people say azerite gear does not change your playstyle like artifacts did, when this does FAR more
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
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  8. #8
    Old God Kathranis's Avatar
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    I think ultimately it comes down to the Azerite Armor system failing to meaningfully match or exceed the Artifact and Legendary systems from Legion. This has also had a negative impact on the way some classes feel, and the importance of that can't be understated.

    A second, smaller factor is that, even though Warfronts and Island Expeditions constitute completely new game "modes," they failed to capture the interest of the playerbase, which marks them as failures wheres Legion had no new modes and thus no comparable failures.

    A third, even smaller factor, which ties loosely into the previous two, is that the War Campaign and Allied Race / Heritage Armor questlines are far inferior to the Class Campaigns of Legion, which players got far more invested in. The Artifact Weapons were a big part of that, but also having entire campaigns that were tailored to your class felt very personal. I'm not sure exactly where these resources were refocused, but going from class-centric content to general content feels very lacking.

    Fourth, which I think is probably the most minor and subjective, is the direction of the story. I feel like there's a pervasive, general feeling of disappointment with how the story (or more specifically the overarching metanarrative) has been handled thus far, from the way it feels like a retread of previous storylines, to the uneven development and screen time for certain characters. It had a lot to live up to after Legion, which while not perfect, was really the culmination of a lot of major plot threads and had pretty solid, strong focus on iconic characters.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    actuallty this is not correct.
    the artifacts when you go back, actuallty had very few talents that did anything interesting, most of them were just passive increases to a minor thing.

    Example

    Going from the starting one, then a full clockwise around back to the middle one, bottom left gold, then the right side ,bold is gold

    Activie artifact ability
    5% damage
    8% buff to demonic empowerment
    35% crit chance of imps
    40% healing of soul link
    every 100 imp firebolts cast makes your next shadowbolt deal double damage not very impressive, literally just "once in awhile your shadowbolt does double damage" which shadowbolt was our lowest dps contribution
    shadow bolt crit chance 20%
    imps firebolts do 32% more
    WHen your imps die or expire, your other demons gain 1% damage, stacking up to 10 times agian not very impressive, literally just 10% damage on your felguard, and the odd 1-3% on your summoned imps/dreadstalker
    doom has a chance to deal double damage
    hand of guldan 20% more damage
    demonwrath does 40% more
    cooldown of unending resolve reduced by 40 seconds
    Shadowbolt and demonwrath have a chance to do an aoe ability over 6 seconds at the target location cool, but its literally just "chance to deal some aoe damage"
    soul link reduces more damage when below 35% hp
    dreadstalkers crit by 20%
    doom damage by 40%
    5% damage
    10% damage and stamina
    20% felguard damage
    dreadbite increases damage taken by wild imps firebolt by 10%
    demonic empowerment has a 50% chance to deal damage for every demon you have this one actuallty changed up the meta, and gave us a meme spec, where we just spammed demonic empowerment
    Demonic empowerment>shadowbolt>demonic empowerment>shadowbolt---- over and over.
    your abilities have a chance to give you 18,700 int for 10 seconds (at 50 ranks)


    so really only the demonic empowerment 50% chance, the main ability, and maybe the "unending resolve reduced by 40 seconds" are the only ones that change your playstyle, compared to the azerite traits we have MANY different play styles.


    this may be a demo only thing, idk other specs as much, but i hate when people say azerite gear does not change your playstyle like artifacts did, when this does FAR more
    Actually it is correct. I specifically stated artifacts had more passives+actives than all 3 slots of azerite combined which is completely true. I’m not debating the usefulness of each and every passive, if we do that then you’ll quickly see more than half of the passives on azerite armor are garbage.

    Im not sure how you can possibly think this does “far more”. As a holy Paladin I have literally 1 active (glimmer of light) and the other 4 tiers are passive. In legion I had Tyrs deliverance, Power of the silver hand and Savior which were all actives then we had some good passives sprinkled in with some regular passives like x dmg is increased.

    I’m not quite sure where you’re getting this “many playstyles” from. For my class, for all 3 specs there’s 1 specific playstyle. Almost every class that I play has 1 active azerite ability and the other 4 are passive.

    Also keep in mind I never said artifacts were the only thing that made classes good in legion. I specifically listed Tier sets, legendaries and artifacts together because all 3 of them made classes feel whole, not just artifacts. Azerite isn’t capable of that on its own, not even close.

    If legion only had artifacts I would’ve been saying this same thing. That’s why I firmly believe they need to get rid of this rental gear system. It’s hurting class design because the devs are allowing the rental gear to finish up classes and fill gaps as opposed to making the classes great baseline. Not only that but this shit gets reset every single expansion, it really needs to go.
    Last edited by Taeldorian; 2019-05-18 at 04:07 AM.

  10. #10
    Holy fuck you two, stop arguing. Azerite Armor and Artifact Weapons were both abjectly fucking terrible and almost equally bad. I'd argue that Azerite Armor is worse just on the basis that you keep replacing/losing traits, which is god damned stupid and some of the worst game design I've ever seen.

  11. #11
    There's a theory that they have two teams working on expansions and the second team is really fucking bad.

    This team did Warlords of Draenor, skipped Legion and did BfA.
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  12. #12
    Old God Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    actuallty this is not correct.
    It's more about the way Azerite Armor feels compared to the Artifacts.

    Artifact Weapons were something you owned, improved, and personalized. There were extensive questlines dealing with them, tailored to your class, and in many ways presented as if they were tailored specifically to you. It was even tied into the reward structures of the game, with new skins and tints for you to unlock. You really became attached to it; just take note of how many people still run around using their Artifacts for transmog.

    Azerite Armor is, in essence, not terribly different from any other piece of gear. Something temporary that you unlock a few passives on, and ultimately replace. Instead of having unique graphics, they had unique icon borders. It simply fails to live up to the fantasy that Artifact Weapons offered. And when it's gone, you barely remember it.

    Taking away a system like Artifact Weapons is honestly only going to work if you can offer players something even more compelling to replace it, and Azerite Armor was way off the mark. Even the upcoming Heart of Azeroth rework is lacking in comparison.

    I personally still think they should have created a new baseline Artifact Weapon alternate advancement system that would simply persist through the game from here on out, allowing players to build and customize their own personal Artifacts, with a talent system designed to be expandable well beyond the current expansion.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Holy fuck you two, stop arguing. Azerite Armor and Artifact Weapons were both abjectly fucking terrible and almost equally bad. I'd argue that Azerite Armor is worse just on the basis that you keep replacing/losing traits, which is god damned stupid and some of the worst game design I've ever seen.
    It’s an Internet forum dude. We’re discussing opinions. Neither of us is being aggressive, just discussing.

    As I stated I firmly believe this rental gear system just needs to go. If legion only had artifacts this exact same thing would’ve been happening. We were lucky to have tier sets and legendaries beefing up classes. Now that we don’t have tier sets and legendaries it’s obvious these rental gear systems just won’t work. They rely on the rental gear to fill in gaps (Ion said azerite was going to do this during the beta) which makes them leave classes barely functioning at the baseline level. It seems pretty unhealthy for class design.

    The main difference between artifacts and azerite is the progression though. Azerite is objectively worse in this regard. You grind to get new tiers of azerite only to have to regrind for those exact same tiers when a new season starts or when you equip a higher ilvl piece. Artifacts just had a steady path of progression. This will be fixed in 8.2 thankfully but 8.0-8.2 is a long time to have to deal with the way azerite has been. They should probably stop relying on rental gear.
    Last edited by Taeldorian; 2019-05-18 at 04:13 AM.

  14. #14
    I'll take 8.1 over 7.1 any day. From what I've seen, I'll be saying the same about 8.2 compared to 7.2. Launch content was better too. Legion was okay but it only got really good with 7.3.

  15. #15
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    Actually it is correct. I specifically stated artifacts had more passives+actives than all 3 slots of azerite combined which is completely true. I’m not debating the usefulness of each and every passive, if we do that then you’ll quickly see more than half of the passives on azerite armor are garbage.

    Im not sure how you can possibly think this does “far more”. As a holy Paladin I have literally 1 active (glimmer of light) and the other 4 tiers are passive. In legion I had Tyrs deliverance, Power of the silver hand and Savior which were all actives then we had some good passives sprinkled in with some regular passives like x dmg is increased.

    I’m not quite sure where your getting this “many playstyles” from. For my class, for all 3 specs there’s 1 specific playstyle. Almost every class that I play has 1 active azerite ability and the other 4 are passive.

    Also keep in mind I never said artifacts were the only thing that made classes good in legion. I specifically listed Tier sets, legendaries and artifacts together because all 3 of them made classes feel whole, not just artifacts.
    Demonic meteor, gives a 5% chance per soul shard spent to refund a soul shard- not game changing

    explosive potential, when you use implosion (an ability we never usually use) and it explodes 3 or more imps, you fain haste for 15 seconds- this changed our entire gameplay, and made our whole rotation and settup entirely different

    Baleful invocation, Your Demonic Tyrant's Demonfire deals 375 additional damage, and summoning your Demonic Tyrant instantly generates 5 Soul Shards.- our demonic tyrant usually gives us NO soul shards, making the tyrant a massive dps increase, and changing our rotation as it makes us want to have 0 soul shards when we cast our tyrant, and allows us to follow up quickly

    Shadow's Bite, When your summoned Dreadstalkers fade away, they increase the damage of your Demonbolt by 47 for 8 sec.- encourages you to save your demon bolts till your dreadstalkers are done, allowing for bursts of demonbolts

    Supreme Commander, When your Demonic Tyrant expires, consume its life essence, granting you a stack of Demonic Core and increasing your Intellect by 92 for 15 sec.- gives your extra soul shards when your tyrant and other demons run out, and extends your dps cooldown by quite abit, but overall not much.

    Umbral Blaze, Your Hand of Guldan has a 15% chance to burn its target for 193 additional Shadowflame damage every 2 sec for 6 sec.- just extra damage, not really anything.

    Desperate Power, While below 50% health, your Drain Life heals for an additional 77 health each 1 sec.- should be obvious, makes drain life alot stronger at low levels making it actuallty worth using

    Lifeblood, When you use a Healthstone, gain 88 Leech for 20 sec- turns healthstone into a heal, plus a heal over time, instead of just 1 chunk.

    Terror of the Mind, You steal 770 health every 1 sec from targets affected by your Fear spell.- turns fear into a fucking hot

    we also have a few others not class based like
    Unstable Catalyst, Your spells and abilities have a chance to leak Azerite on the ground around you. Standing in the Azerite increases your primary stat by 43 for 8 sec.- which is like a trinket, so i wont link anymore.




    but all those above look like ALOT more playstyle changing effects then the literal ONE we got from our artifact... Which btw, the artifact was set in stone... You changed and then were like that forever, every demo lock had the same playstyle, where with azerite every warlock has the choice of different traits, do you want 1 of each for optimal advantages? or do you want 3 of the two best?


    also i guess you havnt seen azerite essences which add a FUCKING BUTTTLOAD and give everyone an extra active, and even may allow us to have a PVP talent in PVE


    "In legion I had Tyrs deliverance, Power of the silver hand and Savior which were all actives"

    also funny, savior and power of the silver hand WERE NOT ACTIVES
    so man, stop lying, please.
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2019-05-18 at 04:16 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Demonic meteor, gives a 5% chance per soul shard spent to refund a soul shard- not game changing

    explosive potential, when you use implosion (an ability we never usually use) and it explodes 3 or more imps, you fain haste for 15 seconds- this changed our entire gameplay, and made our whole rotation and settup entirely different

    Baleful invocation, Your Demonic Tyrant's Demonfire deals 375 additional damage, and summoning your Demonic Tyrant instantly generates 5 Soul Shards.- our demonic tyrant usually gives us NO soul shards, making the tyrant a massive dps increase, and changing our rotation as it makes us want to have 0 soul shards when we cast our tyrant, and allows us to follow up quickly

    Shadow's Bite, When your summoned Dreadstalkers fade away, they increase the damage of your Demonbolt by 47 for 8 sec.- encourages you to save your demon bolts till your dreadstalkers are done, allowing for bursts of demonbolts

    Supreme Commander, When your Demonic Tyrant expires, consume its life essence, granting you a stack of Demonic Core and increasing your Intellect by 92 for 15 sec.- gives your extra soul shards when your tyrant and other demons run out, and extends your dps cooldown by quite abit, but overall not much.

    Umbral Blaze, Your Hand of Guldan has a 15% chance to burn its target for 193 additional Shadowflame damage every 2 sec for 6 sec.- just extra damage, not really anything.

    Desperate Power, While below 50% health, your Drain Life heals for an additional 77 health each 1 sec.- should be obvious, makes drain life alot stronger at low levels making it actuallty worth using

    Lifeblood, When you use a Healthstone, gain 88 Leech for 20 sec- turns healthstone into a heal, plus a heal over time, instead of just 1 chunk.

    Terror of the Mind, You steal 770 health every 1 sec from targets affected by your Fear spell.- turns fear into a fucking hot

    we also have a few others not class based like
    Unstable Catalyst, Your spells and abilities have a chance to leak Azerite on the ground around you. Standing in the Azerite increases your primary stat by 43 for 8 sec.- which is like a trinket, so i wont link anymore.




    but all those above look like ALOT more playstyle changing effects then the literal ONE we got from our artifact... Which btw, the artifact was set in stone... You changed and then were like that forever, every demo lock had the same playstyle, where with azerite every warlock has the choice of different traits, do you want 1 of each for optimal advantages? or do you want 3 of the two best?


    also i guess you havnt seen azerite essences which add a FUCKING BUTTTLOAD and give everyone an extra active, and even may allow us to have a PVP talent in PVE
    The essences come out in 8.2. We’ve had to deal with this garbage azerite system for almost an entire year now. You literally regressed in power every time a new season started or you equipped a higher ilvl piece. This was and is the main problem with azerite. You’re only able to pick 5 different passives/actives and 2 of the 5 rows are dedicated to defensives/utility (which is alright).

    To answer your question about 1 of each or 3 of the two best: I want none. I don’t want these rental gear systems at all so if I had to pick I’d pick none. Azerite doesn’t do nearly enough to make classes enjoyable after the removal of tier/legendaries/artifacts and the addition of abilities on the GCD. I don’t want them to use these systems to make classes function, I want the classes to function at the baseline level before anything else. Both in legion and BfA classes were hardly functioning until they got their rental gear/legendaries and all that.

    Ion specifically stated during the beta that azerite will fill the gaps in rotations. It doesn’t, that’s why they made very fast changes to classes towards the end of the beta, azerite doesnt do nearly enough to prop up classes so they had to go back and actually make certain classes function somewhat.

    I’m excited for 8.2 essences but that’s not what’s being discussed here, at least not in my post. We haven’t really seen them much yet in any specific environment so it’s hard to tell what will happen.
    Last edited by Taeldorian; 2019-05-18 at 04:21 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    It’s an Internet forum dude. We’re discussing opinions. Neither of us is being aggressive, just discussing.
    I'm trying to illustrate that your discussion is basically "is this awful turd better/worse than this awful turd". They both sucked, do we really need to argue over which sucked worse?

  18. #18
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    It's more about the way Azerite Armor feels compared to the Artifacts.

    Artifact Weapons were something you owned, improved, and personalized. There were extensive questlines dealing with them, tailored to your class, and in many ways presented as if they were tailored specifically to you. It was even tied into the reward structures of the game, with new skins and tints for you to unlock. You really became attached to it; just take note of how many people still run around using their Artifacts for transmog.

    Azerite Armor is, in essence, not terribly different from any other piece of gear. Something temporary that you unlock a few passives on, and ultimately replace. Instead of having unique graphics, they had unique icon borders. It simply fails to live up to the fantasy that Artifact Weapons offered. And when it's gone, you barely remember it.

    Taking away a system like Artifact Weapons is honestly only going to work if you can offer players something even more compelling to replace it, and Azerite Armor was way off the mark. Even the upcoming Heart of Azeroth rework is lacking in comparison.

    I personally still think they should have created a new baseline Artifact Weapon alternate advancement system that would simply persist through the game from here on out, allowing players to build and customize their own personal Artifacts, with a talent system designed to be expandable well beyond the current expansion.
    I wouldnt call them personalized, as other then "these traits are abit more powerful" you all had EVERYTHING the same.

    yes class quests, somethign that has nothing to do with artifacts, as we have had class quests without them, we can have class quests without them.

    and skins to unlock... we have had that since vanilla, its called weapon drops. while yes i did like the unlock system, i am glad we finally have weapons back.

    and i would love to hear how the upcoming heart of azeroth changes are lacking compared to artifact weapons?
    cause these will have FAR more choices, and.. actual choice, instead of "you demo lock, you have this"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    The essences come out in 8.2. We’ve had to deal with this garbage azerite system for almost an entire year now. You literally regressed in power every time a new season started or you equipped a higher ilvl piece. This was and is the main problem with azerite. You’re only able to pick 5 different passives/actives and 2 of the 5 rows are dedicated to defensives/utility (which is alright).

    To answer your question about 1 of each or 3 of the two best: I want none. I don’t want these rental gear systems at all so if I had to pick I’d pick none. Azerite doesn’t do nearly enough to make classes enjoyable after the removal of tier/legendaries/artifacts and the addition of abilities on the GCD. I don’t want them to use these systems to make classes function, I want the classes to function at the baseline level before anything else. Both in legion and BfA classes were hardly functioning until they got their rental gear/legendaries and all that.
    "almost an entire year" i mean i guess 9 months is close to 12? whatever.
    also again i cant agree with the "my class doesent work without X" but maybe thats because warlock specs are constantly changing, but i have never felt that for all of the specs.



    also you missed this

    "In legion I had Tyrs deliverance, Power of the silver hand and Savior which were all actives"

    also funny, savior and power of the silver hand WERE NOT ACTIVES
    so man, stop lying, please.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    I'm trying to illustrate that your discussion is basically "is this awful turd better/worse than this awful turd". They both sucked, do we really need to argue over which sucked worse?
    No we probably don’t. I’m just hoping they’ve learned their lesson and will now focus on class design instead of relying on these systems for classes to function.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    No we probably don’t. I’m just hoping they’ve learned their lesson and will now focus on class design instead of relying on these systems for classes to function.
    They won't. Or at least, they probably won't. We're stuck with this system for the rest of the game's life, because it increases player retention by forcing you to play more often. It was the same thing with Garrisons/Class Halls/Missions Tables. They get you to log in multiple times a day, which reflects very positively on Blizzard's internal record keeping. The best we can hope for is that they improve the system a little bit, because Azerite Armor is seriously fucking terrible it is legitimately the worst shit I've ever seen it's impressive how not good it is.

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