Unfortunate Implications with Sylvanas

[Kumorii]

That's even worse. "Oh she was so aware of things that she saw 10 steps ahead. Her deeds seemed unhinged and villainous, but we swear they aren't! Don't look at all the horrible things she did, just look at the end result only where she did 1 good thing, that's what she did all those horrible things for!"

Dunno, better that she doesn't become a Garrosh 2.0. I agree on that it's shit writing however.

[cparle87]

Where's she say that?

The core tenet of the forsaken was free will. Arthas took that away from them and that was the one line they didn't cross. Think back to Deathknell, where the newly risen were given the choice to join the forsaken, return to the grave, or go on their own. Or in Hillsbrad when that crazy prison warden kidnapped forsaken, performing horrible brainwashing experiments on them to turn them into his slaves in https://wow.gamepedia.com/A_Blight_Upon_the_Land. Lydon tells him that unforgivable crime can only be punished with "true death".

The fact that Sylvanas is willing to do exactly what that warden did knowing the punishment under her own laws was death, means that she has disassociated him from being one of her people, therefore it's ok to do what she's doing.

[Skytotem]

The core tenet of the forsaken was free will. Arthas took that away from them and that was the one line they didn't cross. Think back to Deathknell, where the newly risen were given the choice to join the forsaken, return to the grave, or go on their own. Or in Hillsbrad when that crazy prison warden kidnapped forsaken, performing horrible brainwashing experiments on them to turn them into his slaves in https://wow.gamepedia.com/A_Blight_Upon_the_Land. Lydon tells him that unforgivable crime can only be punished with "true death".

The fact that Sylvanas is willing to do exactly what that warden did knowing the punishment under her own laws was death, means that she has disassociated him from being one of her people, therefore it's ok to do what she's doing.

I agree that's what she did basically, that or she doesn't care about the forsakens free will much in private. Shame she didn't say it outloud though to solidify the hypocrisy.

[Sorrowseer]

From the beginning, yes there are.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Leonid_Barthalomew

Also as of Cata there's this guy, who foresaw Sylvanas going off the deep end and quit her for the Argent Crusade.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Argent_Apothecary_Judkins

Nice to see some are not complete turds, though in both instances they have left the forsaken 'faction' and joined the argent crusade :/

[George Costanza]

They will probably just use sylvanas for shock material in the future I doubt they will kill her off just now.

I mean WoWs lore is just like game of thrones it is just meant to be for reaction videos.

[Soon-TM]

They will probably just use sylvanas for shock material in the future I doubt they will kill her off just now.

I mean WoWs lore is just like game of thrones it is just meant to be for reaction videos.

Imo Sylvanas may not be a 8.3 raid boss, but she certainly will in 9.x

[George Costanza]

my current guess is that she will be the last boss in 8.3 but wont die.I mean it will basically be a garrosh 2.0 but not really with her leading int o the next expansion but she doesnt die.

[Oneirophobia]

And Thrall saw nothing wrong with naming the capital after him, even though he settled Orgrimmar in a shithole because he wanted Orcs to atone for the things they did under Orgrim. A true genius of Orc-kind right there. No wonder his wisdom is the golden, inviolable standard of the Horde.

“Why are we living in this dusty hellhole?!”

Orgrimmar

“Oh. Right. That guy.”

At least, that’s how I always understood it.

[Vakna]

There is no redemption story for Sylvanas, for one she isn't the type for it, and secondly even if she did make some heroic sacrifice and save the world - that would be Blizzard implying that the good guy burns hundreds of innocent children and that we should be completely okay with that. Even if there was some mind bending reason that forced her to massacre thousands of innocents in order to save the world the answer would still have been no, you walk away and find a different solution.

[Zandalariprelate]

There is no redemption story for Sylvanas, for one she isn't the type for it, and secondly even if she did make some heroic sacrifice and save the world - that would be Blizzard implying that the good guy burns hundreds of innocent children and that we should be completely okay with that. Even if there was some mind bending reason that forced her to massacre thousands of innocents in order to save the world the answer would still have been no, you walk away and find a different solution.

I mean Malfurion exiled lots of his people because he was an arcane hater and blame every magic user about the legion, Orgrim in the horde, Genn wanted to erradicate the orcs and Jaina killed lots of blood elves in the purge of Dalaran and yet they are still claimed as heroes in their factions, so things like morale, good behavior or even killing people is fine as long you have enough influence to get away with it

[Super Dickmann]

There is no redemption story for Sylvanas, for one she isn't the type for it, and secondly even if she did make some heroic sacrifice and save the world - that would be Blizzard implying that the good guy burns hundreds of innocent children and that we should be completely okay with that. Even if there was some mind bending reason that forced her to massacre thousands of innocents in order to save the world the answer would still have been no, you walk away and find a different solution.

Eh, Grom got away with it for a good while, sure Sylvie can too.

[Magnagarde]

I get some people enjoy playing the villain, and that's fine, but I think Blizz has dug themselves into a hole with Sylvanas, where if they kill her or have her go off and be villainous, it makes everyone look stupid for ever having trusted her or worked with the Forsaken...

The only ones who would feel stupid or surprised are those who hadn't been conciously invested into the lore, either through being fans and getting the wrong message because of said bias or simply not caring about the story and thinking that everyone who belongs to the playable Horde races must be a Horde loyalist by default.

The earliest in-depth lore revelations have shown what exactly Sylvanas thinks about the Forsaken and what they mean to her. All her actions also show she has never had any issue betraying those she works for/with or going maniac mode. From betraying the deal she made with the humans of Lordaeron when reclaiming said kingdom's capital from the dreadlords, to the way she's been taking the Horde for a ride since the admission of the Forsaken into the Horde with the "LooKiNg fOr A cURe" nonsense, everything has pointed to the fact that - given the power - she'd do something the likes she has done in BfA so far.

Whenever she recieved an increase in power of whatever manner, she put that power to the most attrocious imaginable use. The only difference between the past and the present is that she now has more power at her disposal than ever before, being the warchief of one of the two major powerhouses on Azeroth.

[Ranaas]

sylvanas won't die but will join void lords/old gods as noone will follow her after what she has done. without noone to lead, she will become harbinger of the void

[Mehrunes]

First of all, if you played Warcraft 3 at all you would know that is absolutely not his intentions.

Secondly, Orgrimmar is literally built right next to a fucking coast and a huge freshwater river. Are you really telling me that all the Horde's druids and mages are so shit at their craft that they can't work with these two massive resources and create literally miles of farmland? Maybe the Horde should stop focusing on resources by conquest and look at what they can do with this extremely valuable stretch of land.

Given how he outright says those were his intentions in the Shattering, you've got nothing here.

[sam86]

the story don't make sense, it is like they keep back and forth on her
at least in Garrosh they spent entire Cata building him as hero the horde need, then because 'half of team didn't get the memo' (probably busy smoking weed during entire f8cking Cata production) in MoP they made him flat out villain, consistent for each exp

U also have to remember that it was blizzard that kept saying we should wait to see the reason for burning the tree, and that there is no evil just 'morally grey' actions, a statement they dropped since BFA launch, not sure they were misguiding us with flat out bullsh8t lies or found it that ppl - surprisingly - don't consider burning children and women innocent civilians alive 'morally grey' action

[Asotcha]

They won't kill her or let her become a villain.... she will be redeemed.

I think it would be more interesting if she was killed in a special way, and was brought back to life as a normal belf in an Ex Machina move. It sounds bad, but it has great implications.

She'd have to loose all her dark edgelord powers and be a regular ranger again,
She'd have to deal with former forsaken subjects possibly trying to kill her off to 'fix' her,
She'd have to deal with all the evil bullshit she did as a regular mortal never knowing if it would bite her in the ass.

Narratively, as shitty as the ex-machina move would be, it would also be a way to keep her as a character and use the whole experience to maybe grow her character in the way of future choices. Would she keep being a background double-dealer, given an extra chance?

Furthermore, most people even in the Alliance would love to kill her off (again) for all she's done, but this would lead to a little conflict with those who disagree since she got the ex-machina second chance to begin with. Whos idea of justice would win out in the end?

And simmering in the background of all of this, is that she Still made some deal with Helya.

No other major lore character in the game presents an opportunity to kill somebody back to life and have it be a comeuppance. Its an irreplaceable opportunity in the story.

[Gaidax]

We still don't know what she will be up to and how it will play out. I mean it's like Starcraft's Kerrigan really, who legit killed millions and ended up being our lord and savior blah blah.

There are really 2 ways she will go on - either she has some sort of 4D chess plan that is aimed at saving everyone from incoming doom with some utterly ridiculous and roundabout way we have no clue about (i.e. Kerrigan 2.0) or she is yet another stock WoW's "hurr durr there is only powaa!" villain.

I still think it's gonna be Kerrigan 2.0, but we will see.

[Powerogue]

I still think we're looking at third villain faction.

You're right that it's strange. Doing things like helping Saurfang and doing the second warfront in the same expansion is hard to RP justify.

We're in the position where Sylvanas can't win, surely. She's evil, by every measure of a typical expansion Big Bad, and is almost exclusively framed as such. Yet at the same time she's a popular character they don't want to "just kill off", likely in the same vein as them regretting killing Illidan anticlimactically in BC.

Third villain faction? Antihero-ic moment of self-sacrifice that kills her off? Something in that vein I'd imagine. All I can say from this expansion is that it'll be dramatic, high stakes, and controversial.

[Vakna]

Given how he outright says those were his intentions in the Shattering, you've got nothing here.

I guess we will have to wait for an official statement from Blizzard then, they need to clarify whether their game or their book is correct.

In the end though it doesn't matter either way, the Orcs and the Orcs alone are the blame for their current situation. In a world where Druids and Mages exist the only reason they have for still living in the middle of a wasteland is because they don't want to solve their problem. Durotar could easily be lush farmland by now if they put in the effort.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean Malfurion exiled lots of his people because he was an arcane hater and blame every magic user about the legion, Orgrim in the horde, Genn wanted to erradicate the orcs and Jaina killed lots of blood elves in the purge of Dalaran and yet they are still claimed as heroes in their factions, so things like morale, good behavior or even killing people is fine as long you have enough influence to get away with it

Genn and Jaina's actions don't hold a candle to what Sylvanas has done, and they were both provoked into their actions. In fact every single aggressive act towards the Horde in Warcraft history (you can look up up) has only been vengeance for something they have done in the past.

Orgrim is only considered a hero to the Orcs for things he did for his own race (IIRC).

Malfurion didn't exile the magic users just because he hated magic, he gave them a legitimate chance after they tried to fuck over the world, which is more than they deserved. He told them they could live without the arcane and integrate back into Night Elven society, they betrayed his trust and almost destroyed Ashenvale with an arcane storm well after he let them stay. After that he had no choice if he wanted to protect his people, they had to go.


The point is nothing anyone has ever done (who is considered a hero) holds a candle to what Sylvanas did in only a couple of months. There's no reasoning for redemption here, and the elves need justice for the genocide against their people. If they Kerrigan her out of the blue for some nut job reason and suddenly the Horde is forgiven for it's crimes and unwarranted destruction that will be the biggest case of narrative suicide I have ever seen.

[cparle87]

Nice to see some are not complete turds, though in both instances they have left the forsaken 'faction' and joined the argent crusade :/

There was also that group of defectors who were captured and kept in the prison in western Hillsbrad near Alterac. They stole some creepy blood stones from Sylvanas that had a scary power from under Tirisfal, which we now know to be Zakazj.