Can we get one thing straight about the introduction of pathfinder?

[FelPlague]

Real talk, do you still have that gold? I was wondering how many people still got that gold as of today. While playing the game (raiding, flasks, food etc), spending on game time or balance, or mounts or other vanity. And if people who still hold onto gold and don't spend it should really count? Because if you don't spend it, then that gold basically doesn't exist. Right? Gold has value the moment you spend it, not while rotting in your pocket. I think.

I spent my 5 million i had made in wod (before that having like 500k tops at times)

on tokens, i bought tons of tokens, and it wasnt till the end of legion when my tokens ran out, i then spent tons of gold on stuff like the lightforged warframe.


so these days i have 1.6 mil, after having spent 800k on tokens... then right away getting a job on youtube and no longer needing to save money... so... uhh... that was stupid of me.

also yeah ALOT on flasks, food, etc and stuff in legion, and i also spent like 150k on that really cool puzzle box trinket in BFA when it first launched

[clevin]

I disagree with you, but regardless, you didn't propose a solution. Do you think flying should be enabled from an expansions start? Do you think it should just cost gold? Do you think flying should be completely disabled? There isn't any point in criticizing or complaining in a feature without offering potential solutions.

1) he didn't make a point you can disagree with really
2) He's right. WoD wasn't designed to be viewed from the air initially. That saved the team a lot of time in design and rendering. it may be news to some, but a lot of things weren't ever designed to be viewed from the air and look weird if you do (Silvermoon, for example). The upside is that you save time creating those views. The downside is... well you can't enable flight.

For those white knights... this isn't Blizzard hate, it's just the way it was.

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See, and what's funny about this is that people wanted it like that - so many people complained about flying t...

There was never a large number of these people and the obvious response to them was... "wait, you hate the game with flying, it ruins the game for you but here you are after SEVEN YEARS?"

[rrayy]

Oh really?

The devs told many times how they don't like flying because it makes the world smaller and you and just skip mobs. Pathfinder is compromise. it is sold as a compromise, in reality the players were scammed*. He is not lying. I don't recall anything about wPvP, but I am not a wpvp-er so...
Also PLAYERS are regurgirating this ALL the TIME.

Scammed: remember when the devs were like: This expectation from us to deliver an expansion every year is impossible. Players were like: say waaaa? (THIS IS HOW WE GOT WOD )
Same with flying: devs: Uhm, turns out flying is a problem?!?!?!?!? players: uhm, no, not really?
Same with Master looter: Guys! Guys!!!! Turns out master loot is bad and it's NASTY!? Players: Huh?
Devs: Turns out tier sets are boring? We're happy to help with azerite! Players: ......................

Funny isn't? This was all the devs selling you turd as gold.

The playerbase was scammed so many times but who counts really. From literelly EVERY SINGLE proposition like this the players came out poorer, thinking they at least got a compromise.

Now you are spewing the same BS the OP is. He is lying and you are swearing to a lie. They never said one word about PvP in regards to flying. Also, it was ION who stated that he did not like the fact that people immediately got flying and skipped over content. He also said that flying needed to feel like a reward. Finally, he stated that the deve were deeply divided on the subject of flying and that pathfinder satisfied the devs who wanted to do without flying to get flying back in the game because they got hit with a hard rebuke of their "NO flying in WOW going forward" announcement. Hence, a compromise. Your claim = BS

Second, the 1 expansion a year was an internal expectation, and Blizzard never said it was an expectation from players. Blizzard also is on record saying this. Your claim = BS

Thrid, Master Looter was removed based on the internal data they had amassed about it and all the complaints and reports they got about it. Your claim = BS.

The 4th one is complete BS because that is not what they said at all.


So, the OP lies and you swear to it becuase you both want to push that narrative. But it is BS no matter how many times you repeat it.

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And there are just as many WPVP people who are OK with flight.

OP clearly stated he wasn't taking a pro/anti flight stance (and therefore didn't offer a solution). He's merely stating that flying was disabled so Blizzard could cut corners and design their zones with flying accessibility as an afterthought (or not at all).

He was trying to call his opinion a fact. There isn't ant evidence to back his claim up. He is trying to push his narrative as fact.

[Kataroku]

The playerbase was scammed so many times but who counts really. From literelly EVERY SINGLE proposition like this the players came out poorer, thinking they at least got a compromise.

You make a good point.

They're like real-estate agents trying to sell a house. They use the sales tactic of turning every negative into a positive; "Oh, this room is really small BUT you can knock down that wall..." despite knowing that the wall they're pointing to is not only load-bearing but also houses all of the plumbing from upstairs.

Instead of admitting that they simply ran out of time, they want to appear as though it was a conscious decision from the very start to enhance the worldly experience.

[Trend]

I'm setting the record straight.

What would we do without you? Thank you for your great contribution to humanity. I feel better about my life now that random internet guy has given us the real scoop on why Blizzard approaches flying the way it does!

p.s. This may come across as sarcasm but I am completely serious.

[Kataroku]

I feel better about my life now that random internet guy has given us the real scoop on why Blizzard approaches flying the way it does!

That's the spirit! Now go out there and share what you've learned!

[Lei]

Now you are spewing the same BS the OP is. He is lying and you are swearing to a lie. They never said one word about PvP in regards to flying.

Good. I didn't say either? I specifically said that I don't wPvP so I don't know. I only quoted your post because of that part about lying I copypasted in my previous reply to you.

Also, it was ION who stated that he did not like the fact that people immediately got flying and skipped over content. He also said that flying needed to feel like a reward.

I said the same? I said "devs" but Ion is at the steering wheel and I kinda don't know all the devs names? So I used "devs"? Not sure where the "lie" is.

Finally, he stated that the deve were deeply divided on the subject of flying and that pathfinder satisfied the devs who wanted to do without flying to get flying back in the game because they got hit with a hard rebuke of their "NO flying in WOW going forward" announcement. Hence, a compromise. Your claim = BS

This is exactly what we are talking about: believing every single word Ion says. Can you imagine what would have happened if they didn't backtrack on the no-flying-ever statement back then? The players rioted. Literally. The forums were full of people demanding flying back. In a disaster expansion like WoD. But you know what? They KNEW before giving out the statement that the players will riot. No dev can be that ignorant and stupid to not know. They knew it and they still went ahead with it. They manipulated their playerbase. Know why? To enforce Pathfinder. Remember the backlash of the ingame store back in wrath? The Retarded Horse? That was back in wrath. Today? Nobody bats an eye, yet another store mount, whatevs. Imagine TOKENS in wrath. Same with the pathfinder. Back then it was a HUGE deal. So they had to soften up the playerbase. They softened us well enough with the "no flying ever" bait. It was a bait. ANYTHING IS BETTER THAN NOT HAVING FLYING. And yes, it was a compromise. FOR THE PLAYERBASE. The devs got to keep everything and even more. Flying doesn't really exist at this point in current content (and who cares about old content?) because the gating. Devs kept everything, players gave up flying in current content. Same scenario with everything else.

Second, the 1 expansion a year was an internal expectation, and Blizzard never said it was an expectation from players. Blizzard also is on record saying this. Your claim = BS

I'm not saying the players directly expected this. They wanted to give us annual expansions because of the content drought. Who "suffer" from content drought? THE PLAYERS. Right. So for us to not suffer from droughts (WHY IS IT A DROUGHT, BLIZZARD - literally every single expansion), they wanted to give US annual expansions. So this is meant to address US, OUR problems. The last interview about this came out in the end of warlords, and they still say "*sad dev face* warlords lacked content because we expected Legion to come out sooner *sad dev face*".
Oh btw just when will you notice the pattern with the excuses... or "explanations"?

, Master Looter was removed based on the internal data they had amassed about it and all the complaints and reports they got about it. Your claim = BS.

And a blizzard dev says my mom is missis Jesus herself. You really believe word to word everything they say, don't you. Actions speak louder than any word. And their actions contradict what they say. (Azerite vs tier sets, flying vs. map layout possibilities without it etcetc)


Edit: have you ever seen a political movie, or a movie about high stakes and multibillionare companies sending out their PR man to do interviews? How these PR guys hold the shit in fron of the gates to not flood over with saying half truths and white lies? You should watch some. Other than Ion. REally, It would be good for you.

[SirCowdog]

They manipulated their playerbase.

@rrayy

To reinforce this point, lets look at how successful the claims about what Pathfinder was meant to accomplish were.

"Makes obtaining flight feel like a reward" - virtually everyone I talk to, except the most hardcore Blizzard apologists, admit that by the time they finally get to fly they're sick of the ground. That no-flying far outstays its welcome, and that finally getting it back is a palpable feeling of relief that they don't have to deal with the ground nonsense any longer.

Not only that, but the actual payout for doing the work of Pathfinder is gated and delayed beyond any reasonable amout of time. To the extent that by the time you get it the value of the "reward" has been largely mitigated and atrophied.

This leads into....

"Pathfinder is a compromise" - It's only a compromise in the most technical sense of the word. By delaying the unlock for so long, Blizzard gains everything they want out of a flightless world, but gives up almost nothing. As above: By the time you get flight, the only thing it's fully good for are alts, which further benefits Blizzard! Virtually everything else you'd use flight for on a main....you will have already done.

The benefit that the player gets in this compromise is almost nothing, making it a shit "compromise".

"No flying allows blizzard to create more interesting and engaging content" - I believe it was Ion who said that, although it might have been Lore. All I can say is: Where is it? The open world has been a series of copy/pasted kill-x quests and mindless, shallow WQs. Even the story quests while leveling have not been particularly engaging outside of a few exceptions such as the Suramar.

It's possible that Mechagon and Nazjatar could change this, but Id still have to ask why we don't get engaging content in the open world until nearly a year after the expansion launch?!

Overall, Patnfinder is a failure for players. It needs to be removed or taken back to the drawing board to be remade into something more player friendly.

[bufferunderrun]

@rrayy

To reinforce this point, lets look at how successful the claims about what Pathfinder was meant to accomplish were.

"Makes obtaining flight feel like a reward" - virtually everyone I talk to, except the most hardcore Blizzard apologists, admit that by the time they finally get to fly they're sick of the ground. That no-flying far outstays its welcome, and that finally getting it back is a palpable feeling of relief that they don't have to deal with the ground nonsense any longer.

Not only that, but the actual payout for doing the work of Pathfinder is gated and delayed beyond any reasonable amout of time. To the extent that by the time you get it the value of the "reward" has been largely mitigated and atrophied.

This leads into....

"Pathfinder is a compromise" - It's only a compromise in the most technical sense of the word. By delaying the unlock for so long, Blizzard gains everything they want out of a flightless world, but gives up almost nothing. As above: By the time you get flight, the only thing it's fully good for are alts, which further benefits Blizzard! Virtually everything else you'd use flight for on a main....you will have already done.

The benefit that the player gets in this compromise is almost nothing, making it a shit "compromise".

"No flying allows blizzard to create more interesting and engaging content" - I believe it was Ion who said that, although it might have been Lore. All I can say is: Where is it? The open world has been a series of copy/pasted kill-x quests and mindless, shallow WQs. Even the story quests while leveling have not been particularly engaging outside of a few exceptions such as the Suramar.

It's possible that Mechagon and Nazjatar could change this, but Id still have to ask why we don't get engaging content in the open world until nearly a year after the expansion launch?!

Overall, Patnfinder is a failure for players. It needs to be removed or taken back to the drawing board to be remade into something more player friendly.

this, but the time/cost advantage blizzard get from it will ensure that they never gonna go back unless a super huge backlash happen.

[Tarba]

Clearly you didn't. Where did I say anything about mining? Really...wtf?


World quests and leveling quests in BfA started out weak and shallow. It's the same garbage we've seen for the past decade. There's no challenge. There's nothing interesting to discover. It's just a series of Kill-X or Collect-X quests. We might as well be playing an AFK facebook game.

Maybe....MAYBE 8.2 will provide something a little more interesting. But that doesn't excuse the delay of finishing pathfinder for almost an entire year after the launch of the expansion. Nazjatar and Mechagon will be completely separate zones. What is the explaination for delaying flight in Zandalar or Kul'Tiras for so long? There isn't one. It's just Blizzard stretching weak content with pathfinder, making a list of nonsense tasks that don't even give a reward once you've done them.

Pathfinder needs to go. Or at the very least be a zone by zone basis.

But I doubt you'll even read or consider any of this.

Well you quoted me about an answer to Kalium’s post who was complaining he couldn’t mine without having to cross the way of mobs and that il was an absolute nightmare to him.
World content has never really been challenging post vanilla. And it has always been about loot x’,, kill x. Bfa and legion have more différent type of quests than you ever had.
Wod had some treasures to find wich became a sad click and collect once flying was unlocked.

What I’m saying from the start is that flying should be unlocked at least after the first content patch, but not before especially not at start or ding max level and not in a new zone until next patch. Else it makes the World useless. And We should simply add a button « complete quest »

[SirCowdog]

. Else it makes the World useless. And We should simply add a button « complete quest »

No. Shitty, halfassed quest and design makes the open world useless. Instead of blaming flight for it, you should be going to the source.

This is a point that, unfortunately, I keep having to make. There may have been minor improvements here and there in the open world, but by taking the path of regressing back to a design that doesn't use flight, it's setting a theme of weakness that over-relies on uncreative and formulaic design instead of peogression and innovation.

It's not that flying ruins the open world. It's that Blizzard gave up and stopped trying to make it better. Pathfinder just does an amazing job of covering up and distracting players from that simple fact.

[Azerate]

I think the Pathfinder is good middle ground between people who would prefer not to have flying at all, and those who want it in the game. And as a bonus, it also gives you something additional to work for and unlock. A win-win situation.

[SirCowdog]

I think the Pathfinder is good middle ground between people who would prefer not to have flying at all, and those who want it in the game. And as a bonus, it also gives you something additional to work for and unlock. A win-win situation.

Can you explain your reasoning? Because if you read my post 4 above yours on this same page, I lay out why Pathfinder is actually kind of bad. I'd be curious to know why you view it as being either "good" or a "middle ground". Because from what I've seen it's neither of those things.

[Frosteye]

Now you are spewing the same BS the OP is. He is lying and you are swearing to a lie. They never said one word about PvP in regards to flying. Also, it was ION who stated that he did not like the fact that people immediately got flying and skipped over content. He also said that flying needed to feel like a reward. Finally, he stated that the deve were deeply divided on the subject of flying and that pathfinder satisfied the devs who wanted to do without flying to get flying back in the game because they got hit with a hard rebuke of their "NO flying in WOW going forward" announcement. Hence, a compromise. Your claim = BS

Second, the 1 expansion a year was an internal expectation, and Blizzard never said it was an expectation from players. Blizzard also is on record saying this. Your claim = BS

Thrid, Master Looter was removed based on the internal data they had amassed about it and all the complaints and reports they got about it. Your claim = BS.

The 4th one is complete BS because that is not what they said at all.


So, the OP lies and you swear to it becuase you both want to push that narrative. But it is BS no matter how many times you repeat it.

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He was trying to call his opinion a fact. There isn't ant evidence to back his claim up. He is trying to push his narrative as fact.

I'd say it's a logical assumption. There isn't really a lot of compelling evidence to the contrary.

Reasons why he's right about pathfinder being the "lazy-way-out":
1. WOD was rushed, original capitals were scrapped due to devs being behind.
2. Tanaan was delayed due to #1 as well
3. Safe to assume due to #1/#2, zones weren't designed with flying in mind.
4. Also due to lack of content in WOD they wanted us to consume it "slower" on the ground.

I'd really like to see the argument to the contrary. I just don't see how Pathfinder was actually necessary or justified for their actual reason/explanation. It doesn't add up or make sense when flying just "worked" since TBC, and nobody complained except a minority of WPVPers (others like myself actually didn't mind it).

Can you give me a list of good reasons why flying was actually disabled for the reasons they say? Honestly it feels like people clinging to this notion are doing it out of "fanboy-ism". Don't get me wrong, I appreciate when Blizzard does things right (they do many times), but I'm not afraid to call BS on things either. Let's break down the OP's initial statement:

If you can recall, flying was disabled in WoD because it would break phasing as well as some quest and cinematic triggers. Remember the PTR servers where flight was enabled and how painfully obvious it was that WoD wasn't designed with flight in mind at all?

1. The only thing that might make the smallest bit of sense was the cinematic cutscenes as you approach certain areas. Sure -- I will give them that. This is almost entirely exclusive to the leveling process though. They could have EASILY disabled flying until you reached 100 and completed the main questlines (a "soft" pathfinder at worst). There was no logical reason to make pathfinder as tedious as it was, and keep it from us for so long.


At any rate, I don't really care if they turn flying ON or OFF, but I wish they would just stick to their guns. I would rather have no flying at all, than having to wait halfway through an expansion and do a tedious chore list to enable flying. You used to just train flying at max level after you played through the game once - I thought that was good enough.
So you could say I am "IDGAF about Flying, but ANTI-Pathfinder".

[huth]

I'd say it's a logical assumption. There isn't really a lot of compelling evidence to the contrary.

Reasons why he's right about pathfinder being the "lazy-way-out":
1. WOD was rushed, original capitals were scrapped due to devs being behind.
2. Tanaan was delayed due to #1 as well
3. Safe to assume due to #1/#2, zones weren't designed with flying in mind.
4. Also due to lack of content in WOD they wanted us to consume it "slower" on the ground.

I'd really like to see the argument to the contrary. I just don't see how Pathfinder was actually necessary or justified for their actual reason/explanation.

You assert all that without evidence. So your claim can be dismissed without evidence.

It is not a "logical" assumption. Just an assumption. You then draw conclusions from your assumptions, without any actual facts in there. That's not a shaky argument in the same way a pile of cards on the ground is not a wobbly card house.

[Frosteye]

You assert all that without evidence. So your claim can be dismissed without evidence.

It is not a "logical" assumption. Just an assumption. You then draw conclusions from your assumptions, without any actual facts in there. That's not a shaky argument in the same way a pile of cards on the ground is not a wobbly card house.

My assumptions with supporting arguments are better than your complete lack of any argument at all. Are they logical or not? that might be in the eye of the beholder sure.

Unless you want to make your own argument and give me reasons why you think you're right, then move along

OP is not taking any particular stance on flight, he is merely pointing out that Pathfinder wasn't implemented for the actual reasons they stated. I think his arguments for that opinion are quite good, and I have yet to see anyone put forth a reasonable counter-argument besides "You're wrong".

[Eggroll]

I disagree with you, but regardless, you didn't propose a solution. Do you think flying should be enabled from an expansions start? Do you think it should just cost gold? Do you think flying should be completely disabled? There isn't any point in criticizing or complaining in a feature without offering potential solutions.

Not sure if OP is correct with what he says about the reasons why flying was originally cut in WoD. I vividly recall Ion's interview with Polygon where he blurted out that "the team" had decided WoD would not have flying and the shitstorm that broke lose after that. Fun times. After enough pressure from the playerbase they finally bailed and made a "compromise" with Pathfinder.

Personally I think it's shit because I find it ok not to fly if you are not maxlevel. Because once you have PF on one toon, all your alts benefit from it, too. You know, getting flying was a progression thing, like now I'm all grown up and get my driver's license and stuff.

I had absolutely no issue with the way it was. Pay your 5k gold at maxlevel to get your flying license. In my opinion this drama was just drama for drama's sake and absolutely redundant. They tried to "fix" something that wasn't broken to begin with.

[Azerate]

Can you explain your reasoning? Because if you read my post 4 above yours on this same page, I lay out why Pathfinder is actually kind of bad. I'd be curious to know why you view it as being either "good" or a "middle ground". Because from what I've seen it's neither of those things.

I think I laid out my reasoning pretty clearly. I like having things to go for in the game, things of different kinds. Pathfinder combines loremaster, reputations and story plot quests into a meta achievement that rewards me with the ability to use flying mounts. It is also not available on release so it makes the 'reward' of the flying skill feel so much better once you actually get it. Kind of feels like playing the game normally and then after many months unlocking a flying cheat code.

As for those points...I may address them for the sake of discussion, but I don't think it will change anything. In the end it's all about opinions and preferences. It's not a scientific debate of facts, but an exchange of subjective opinions.

"Makes obtaining flight feel like a reward" - virtually everyone I talk to, except the most hardcore Blizzard apologists, admit that by the time they finally get to fly they're sick of the ground. That no-flying far outstays its welcome, and that finally getting it back is a palpable feeling of relief that they don't have to deal with the ground nonsense any longer.

Not only that, but the actual payout for doing the work of Pathfinder is gated and delayed beyond any reasonable amout of time. To the extent that by the time you get it the value of the "reward" has been largely mitigated and atrophied.

This leads into....

Flying is definitely way more pleasant than just going by a ground mount. Not sure what that has to do with the feeling of being rewarded, or why it would invalidate that feeling or diminish it. If anything, it increases the enjoyment of finally being able to fly.

"Pathfinder is a compromise" - It's only a compromise in the most technical sense of the word. By delaying the unlock for so long, Blizzard gains everything they want out of a flightless world, but gives up almost nothing. As above: By the time you get flight, the only thing it's fully good for are alts, which further benefits Blizzard! Virtually everything else you'd use flight for on a main....you will have already done.

The benefit that the player gets in this compromise is almost nothing, making it a shit "compromise".

Well, true. Compromises are always shit to some extent. But a compromise is still better for the other half of the community than the exact thing they do not want. The people who are "no flying allowed" get their preferred style of the game as the only one for about a year, and the other half gets their preferred (flying allowed) after a year with additional challenge requirement, so it's not free.

I personally wouldn't mind flying from the very start, but the way they chose to gate it feels decent and as I said, gives me an additional challenge in the game, which I like. If I were to choose my most preferred way, I would take the current way (pathfinder achievement) but doable from the release day. I don't mind really mind waiting for it though (and like I said earlier, to some extent it feels more rewarding to finally get it after longer time).

"No flying allows blizzard to create more interesting and engaging content" - I believe it was Ion who said that, although it might have been Lore. All I can say is: Where is it? The open world has been a series of copy/pasted kill-x quests and mindless, shallow WQs. Even the story quests while leveling have not been particularly engaging outside of a few exceptions such as the Suramar.

That's a whole different debate I feel. There's a huge portion of the playerbase who believe that just not being able to fly makes the content way better. To be clear, I don't agree with that, but these people are there.

[Frosteye]

Not sure if OP is correct with what he says about the reasons why flying was originally cut in WoD. I vividly recall Ion's interview with Polygon where he blurted out that "the team" had decided WoD would not have flying and the shitstorm that broke lose after that. Fun times. After enough pressure from the playerbase they finally bailed and made a "compromise" with Pathfinder.

Personally I think it's shit because I find it ok not to fly if you are not maxlevel. Because once you have PF on one toon, all your alts benefit from it, too. You know, getting flying was a progression thing, like now I'm all grown up and get my driver's license and stuff.

I had absolutely no issue with the way it was. Pay your 5k gold at maxlevel to get your flying license. In my opinion this drama was just drama for drama's sake and absolutely redundant. They tried to "fix" something that wasn't broken to begin with.

Pretty much hit it on the head IMO.

The biggest anti-flying argument I see is "But flying makes it so you can skip over so much content!" -- which is in itself not a great argument since before (exception Cata) you needed to be Max Level before you could fly. You always had to play through zones on the ground.

A more reasoned approach would have been adding a "soft-pathfinder" requirement for maybe 80/100% loremaster completion. They went entirely overboard with pathfinder requirements and did not need to time-gate it for half the expansions' lifecycle.

My "opinion" is that they are keeping pathfinder on the metaphorical hook for us, in order to promote world quest / content participation. Instead of making us want to do these things on their own merits, they're gating flight behind it so "almost everyone" will feel compelled to participate.

Honestly - I find these types of content (WQs/islands) fairly dull/boring. WQs were maybe cool once they first came out, but they are no longer interesting or challenging/rewarding. It feels like they exist for the sake of being a chore that eats up your playtime.

[huth]

My assumptions with supporting arguments are better than your complete lack of any argument at all. Are they logical or not? that might be in the eye of the beholder sure.

Unless you want to make your own argument and give me reasons why you think you're right, then move along

OP is not taking any particular stance on flight, he is merely pointing out that Pathfinder wasn't implemented for the actual reasons they stated. I think his arguments for that opinion are quite good, and I have yet to see anyone put forth a reasonable counter-argument besides "You're wrong".

What supporting arguments? Those are just assumptions as well. You can't support assumptions with assumptions.

There's no real need for a "reasonable counter-argument" when there's no arguments to counter in the first place.