The Raiding Dilemma

[Jastall]

Join a guild around your experience (there's guilds out there that will take people who are new to raiding), raid with them, profit.

There's really nothing else to it in my experience. In most of my WoW life I raided very casually, took me months to even get 10N Lich King or Sha of Fear dead. Then for ToT I decided to get invested in higher-end raiding, and joined a better guild, honed my skills and got cracking on min-maxing my character. SoO I was getting AOTC in the second month of the tier, and by BRF I got my first CE, even if very late in the tier as a benchwarmer, and now I have a permanent spot in a Mythic guild.

The part that sucks the most about climbing up is leaving old guilds behind, either due to them not fitting your ambitions or disbanding. But it's very unlikely that you'll find a middle of the pack Heroic guild that successfully transitions into a Mythic one; the climb in terms of skill, preparation, and dedication is just too steep sadly.

[clevin]

...I could not find one guild doing any sort of mythic content advertising for brand new players that have never raided before. S...

Raiding doesn't mean just mythic.

Also, don't be dense. No new player should expect to start in mythic - that's just unrealistic. IF OP or anyone else wants to start raiding they need to start in a guild that does normal and heroic so that hey can get experience and gear. At some point, they'll be ready for mythic. But it's just fucking stupid to argue that guilds are being unreasonable since they won't take a new person with no experience to mythic.

[MidnyteTV]

Well there's your problem. You should have been looking for a lesser, non-Mythic raiding guild.

I'm not looking for myself, I was looking due to the responses in this thread. Lesser, non-mythic raiding guilds are not as prevalent in terms of advertising their guild.

[Ahovv]

and how many people want to join and stay in a group led by a fresh raider ? This is no solution.
Blizzard should add a mentoring program of sorts. To reward people helping

Dude WoW's raiding is already stupid-easy to get started in, you can even find guilds who are doing normal difficulty.

There isn't a problem at all.

[Gasparde]

This is not a dilemma. What is a dilemma is people with no experience and nothing to show for expecting to be brought alongside people who have already learned the fights and equipped their characters.

The only dilemma is people's unwillingness to do what others have done before them; make your own damn group. Just like everybody else did. But then there's the dilemma of people with trash characters and 0 experience being unwilling to stay in a raid that's all about gathering experience and gear. The problem isn't people who shouldn't want to play with you not playing with you, it's you wanting to play with people who are clearly not interested in carrying your ass.

[quite an expert in wow]

I'm not looking for myself, I was looking due to the responses in this thread. Lesser, non-mythic raiding guilds are not as prevalent in terms of advertising their guild.

I see a lot of heroic guilds on my realm though. And well, maybe they advertise less in tradechat - but not on wowprogress for example. Every guild has some discord these days where you can message an officer. Maybe it takes a little bit more time, but it is a way that works. This is the perfect solution for OP.

[MechaCThun]

1. Push your own Mythic Keystone keys to get higher item level gear.

2. Collect a set of the highest item level gear possible for each slot.

3. Equip that highest item level gear to boost up your overall item level.

4. Queue for raids in the Group Finder after equipping your highest item level possible gear set.

5. ???

6. Profit.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Biggest flaw I see with people looking to get into raiding is wanting to skip steps. I see it all the time in our guild applications. People with no experience, no gear, and looking to start out shouldn't be looking for a guild progressing or have killed mythic Jaina. These people should be able to pug normal and get into a heroic guild. Clear it there. Then move onto a mythic guild and stick with them for a minute even if they aren't world class. It will get you some kills, some gear, but most importantly experience and proof of it as you show up to raids, make it on time, do the correct damage, follow mechanics, and all of that. You need to make sure you are happy doing these things as much as just wanting to be there. It will show higher guilds you can do it and should be there. Finally if you find yourself happy at any of these steps do not be afraid to stay there. If you really enjoy pugging normal and clearing heroic with your guild stay there. If you like just clearing heroic and doing some mythic no shame. If you find a guild that is world first and you make it congrats. But just set your goals to the point you want to be at but don't be afraid to stick with happiness if you find it.

[Alroxas]

Guys, how do we progress in raids etc when no one is willing to take us?

Do normals, log your fights on Warcraft Logs. Get good parses, move up to Heroic, repeat, then move up to Mythic and repeat.

All I see is prejudice, groups only recruiting those who know the fights have super amazing high ilevel gear etc

And all I see is entitled spoiled players who want to run when they can't even walk. Raids (and M+) work on a progression system. Start at one end, and gain experience and then move up. If you can't do Normal raid, why the heck would a leader take you into Heroic, let alone Mythic?

The people who are new to raiding will never get into raids thus they will never progress.

That is 100% false. All raiders started somewhere and at some point in time (in some previous expansion or even in classic WoW), they were new to raiding too. As others have commented, start your own group. Advertise that it's for new people and it's going to be a "learning experience". Sure you won't get many applicants but you'll get some. And then all of a sudden, you have "experience" in at least Normal raid. Build from there.

WoW is so incredibly hard to progress in mainly because of player driven attitude that literally keeps the new/beginner people from progressing.

Only if said players are lazy and don't apply themselves. There is nothing in the game that stops a player from forming up their own groups to go adventure into a raid/dungeon. In fact, that was how it was originally done back in Vanilla and BC. So start being more proactive.

[quite an expert in wow]

Biggest flaw I see with people looking to get into raiding is wanting to skip steps. I see it all the time in our guild applications. People with no experience, no gear, and looking to start out shouldn't be looking for a guild progressing or have killed mythic Jaina. These people should be able to pug normal and get into a heroic guild. Clear it there. Then move onto a mythic guild and stick with them for a minute even if they aren't world class. It will get you some kills, some gear, but most importantly experience and proof of it as you show up to raids, make it on time, do the correct damage, follow mechanics, and all of that. You need to make sure you are happy doing these things as much as just wanting to be there. It will show higher guilds you can do it and should be there. Finally if you find yourself happy at any of these steps do not be afraid to stay there. If you really enjoy pugging normal and clearing heroic with your guild stay there. If you like just clearing heroic and doing some mythic no shame. If you find a guild that is world first and you make it congrats. But just set your goals to the point you want to be at but don't be afraid to stick with happiness if you find it.

Exactly what I posted.

Progress naturally like everyone else. Don't expect to start raiding on the highest level without a track record.

[temple1906]

People that complain about how hard it is to get into raiding aren't being honest with themselves. You are trying to skip steps or are not as good as you think you are. Probably both. I don't say this to be mean or antagonistic. I say it because it's the truth. You don't even know if you want to raid Mythic. You THINK you do, but you really really have absolutely no idea if you'll even like it. It's not meant for everybody. It requires a very different mindset than Heroic. If you want to get into Mythic then you will need to start from the bottom, like EVERYBODY else did. You will need to find a guild that is still doing Normal if you haven't progressed on that. Then you will need to find a guild that is doing Heroic and clear that. Then you will need to find a 1-3/9 Mythic guild to cut your teeth on.

I know what you're thinking. "But guilds that are still that low in progression suck!" And that's where your mentality defeats your goal. It does not matter how fast these guilds are progressing. All that matters is that you get the experience and the kills under your belt. This is extremely important because you may get into a guild struggling with Heroic and feel like that level is really taxing for you. That is okay. There is no shame in that, and it is better you accept your own personal limitations than try to force your way into a mythic team only to hate life. I have known many players that got onto mythic teams through networking that ended up compeltely burning out on progression because it stopped being easy. Mythic is a totally different animal. You will spending hours every week wiping on the same boss over and over again. Especially when you are on lower tier mythic teams. When I was getting experience in a 3/9 guild I endured almost 200 wipes on Opulence alone. But that painful grind gave me the experience I needed to stand out from the pack and get into a 6/9 (now 7/9) guild. Now I have a real shot at getting CE.

Even if you're willing to pay for the carries to buff up your resume, you need the correct mentality to succeed. People with a victim mentality do not last their trial period. People that cannot consistently show up on time (which means 15 mins early) for raid will not last their trial period. People that do not come with their own consumables will not last their trial period. People that do not own their own mistakes will not make it. People that do not do the research into their class to optimize their output will not make it. People that do not analyze their play every pull and make corrections (even tiny ones) will not make it. People that do not prioritize mechanics will not make it. You do not NEED to do all of these things to be successful in Normal/Heroic but if Mythic is your GOAL then these are things you NEED to get in the habit of doing.

Mythic raiders are good because they have a mastery of the basic fundamentals of PvE. Because they know their fundamentals, they can do more advanced things that push their performance to another level. If you want to raid at a high level then master your fundamentals.

[Revamp Man]

Get guild
Get friends
Stop looking at groups that are just "full clear"

My team requires like 395 for heroic

[Kaver]

Guys, how do we progress in raids etc when no one is willing to take us? For example, there are requirements to do raids set forth, your experience, your damage, knowing fights, ilevel etc, how are we suppose to accomplish this when no one is willing to take us into raids? I want to ask you guys all, when there is a new person to raiding, how does he progress if always groups are looking for people who are experienced? How to beginners get through raids? All I see is prejudice, groups only recruiting those who know the fights have super amazing high ilevel gear etc. Same thing with mythics, groups are only looking for specific classes, achievements and ilevel. If for example I want to jump into raiding and I don't have much experience in it, I will still be turned down. So this is the flaw what i'm talking about. The people who are new to raiding will never get into raids thus they will never progress. This system is really flawed. LFR does not solve this because the items that drop there aren't nearly as good as those that drop in normal/heroic raids etc. It's nearly impossible to get into raids part of the reason I moved to PVP.

WoW is so incredibly hard to progress in mainly because of player driven attitude that literally keeps the new/beginner people from progressing.
If anyone plans to play WoW lemme warn you in advance, you will face a lot of trouble and hard time getting into end game content mostly because it's players who are pulling the strings on this and Blizzard is not doing anything about the playerbase who wants to do raids but can't because of player made rules. This is the same issue for past 10 years that has not been looked at by the Blizzard development team.

The real question is: “How do you expect to progress in raids if you’re no willing to put in any effort?”

[Zephire]

the same solutions since forever:
link fake achis to pugs
make your own pug, it's usually so annoying to do that people dont mind carrying your shit gear or w/e
meet other people and play with them and get invited to their runs

This is a good advice! I've carried plenty of undergeared people just because they make the group and toss me assist so I can direct people. I'm a "we do this to solv the problem"-guy and I'm happy to let someone else have the "You're not good enough, get out"-role on someone else. I deal with the tactical aspect, the leader deals with the social aspect.

What I do not want, though, is a leader inviting people then being quite. Not informing the raid, like "we need 3 more dps", "we're having a break", answering questions or tossing assists. I hate those, like, really. Don't be that one!

A good leader isn't the guy who dictates everything. A good leader listens to people, communicate, respect others, admits flaws and improve while still being decisive.

And for the love of what's holy, ask questions! Don't be afraid of asking, if people answer stupidly or in a rude way, just ignore it and keep asking until you get the answer. It's really irritating having people being silent in hopes no one will notice that they don't know tactics etc.

We are plenty of people out there who're happy to assist, help and educate others. It's no fun carrying vegerables but if you try, learn and improve then it's just fun to carry because the one getting carried isn't a vegetable.

[Zantera]

Like others have said, join a guild. There's a lot of guilds recruiting below their progress to fill spaces because ultimately progress doesn't tell the whole story. I've been a CE raider in the past but after faction changing ended up in a guild that wasn't as good as the ones I had been in before. But because I'm quite a loyal and friendly person I stuck around for way longer than I should have and as a result I found myself only being 3/9 BoD about 1 ½ month ago when I decided to leave. Got in touch with a 6/9 guild progressing on Mekka and even though they had a roster of 23-24 people they still gave me the trial. Now we're progressing Jaina and I'm one of the most core players on the team. And now we're having some attendance issues cause we lost a few people, and for our recruitment we're again looking at people with lower progress because in the end it doesn't paint the whole picture.

Every guild wants those raiders who are 100% (or near) attendance, get epic logs (or better) with great attitude and does every mechanic right. But in the end you need 20 people (more like 25) and you won't get a guild full of these raiders. Sometimes you just need to fill spots and that is the golden ticket for people to get in. Once you get in, you just prove yourself and that's it. My best advice if you are looking for a guild is to get in around this time - towards the end of a tier. Competition is lower, a lot of guilds are desperate to recruit because they might be close to AotC or CE (depending on what you want) and you get the advantage of getting in, getting to know the guildies and becoming a core member BEFORE the next patch/raid comes, when you get a bunch of people resurfacing.

[A Chozo]

You are facing a problem that exists ever since mmo games with hard cooperative content were invented. This kind of content is not meant to be done by a group of strangers. It's a thing that usually requires trust and patience, because not everyone in the group is bound to instantly know the strategy for the content. That's why it's mostly done by groups of friends, guilds, etc.

WoW is an anomaly regarding this, because currently the PuG community is big-as-fuck. It's cultural in this game.

In short, I suggest you join a group of people - probably a guild - who has patience with you, and more importantly, you must have patience with this group.

[drbatman]

No dilemma here.

join a guild, talk to people, make friends. the rest takes care of itself.

[Bumpy]

As a recruitment officer I see this all the time - people without experience trying to apply for a top50 guild. You absolutely cannot skip steps; if you lack experience start from a top3000 guild and work your way up from there. It's funny how you complain that you cannot get into a guild, yet it'sa fact that lesser progressed guilds are always bleeding for raiders and most of the time would take anybody with half a brain. That simply means you trying to skip the system, and the system rightfully isn't letting you to do so.

[Illana]

I came back to the game 2 resets ago and I now have curve on jaina and working on crucible.

Start at around 360 ilevel (did some heroic uldir before I quit for about 8 months) I used pvp to gear up, I'm an above average pvper so queuing 2v2 netted me some 385 gear rather quickly (i just used the group finder to find some people who were learning pvp and they accept anyone usually)

Once i got to that point I looked for normal runs of BoD and M+ to about +5 and built up from there. Then I was starting to get invited to heroic BoD runs and eventually hit the point where I made my own group to take down stormwall and Jaina.

While doing this I would attend the invasions for 370 gear and look out for world quests for gear also.

Overall it's just time consuming, though if you don't pvp it will take a bit longer due to having to spam M+ and hope for drops

[Battlebeard]

This has been the major problem of WoW for many, many years.

And it gets worse and worse with more things to exclude others, with ilvl, achivements, gearscore, RIO score etc over the years. We need LESS things to separate us and to show "how good we are", not more. The content needs to be more inclusive, not more exclusive.

And people ignore it with comments like "just make your own group", "get gud" or things like that, when in reality, it's not that easy.

To lead your own group should NOT be necessary to enjoy the game. Most raids are like 15man or so on avarage size, meaning only 1/15 is the leader, and you should be avle to actually play by being one of the other 14.

Besides, the leader is suppose to know EVERYTHING, when to use BL, mechanics for all roles, assign tanks, put out markers, split the raids when you have to etc, etc. I play Rogue, I know what a Rogue is suppose to do. I don't WANT to learn how tanks deal with mobs etc, that's not a Rogues job. And knowing your class's job should be enough!

There are ways around this, but it all comes down to real life money SADLY. If you can't afford this, then raiding is sadly not an option (we talk Heroic or Mythic raiding).

Cause you have to either buy Ahead of the Curve and possibly a full HC clear. You can try with fake achievements, but most people who lead raids have the RIO addon, and they can instantly see if you have the experience or not. So yeah, raiding in WoW is more or less a pay to win right now.

Once you buy curve or a full clear, it's smooth sailing, before that, it's a LIVING HELL.