The Warchief Casino.

[Super Dickmann]

Well, there's also the matter that the Forsaken base is all Goblin architecture. There is a datamined Forsaken Archway, though. Completely unused. So, I very much think Darkshore was a rush job.

Don't remind me. I made myself sad enough by remembering BTS.

So, as stupid as it sounds, the Forsaken shit might be set up for next expansion. And it may have always been that way. Zuldazar, Kul Tiras, Nazjatar, and probably Ny'alotha were always going to have the development priority for this expansion.

Anyhow, I have hope for Voss. She was a total Donut Steal in the beginning, but I thought it was funny. Not to mention, she's been in literally every expansion since her inception, so someone at Blizz loves her.

I wouldn't be surprised honestly, this one seems set to wrap up N'zoth, so things like Bwon's ties to Talanji, Taelia meeting Bolvar and the whole thing surrounding the Forsaken being Calia-ized might end up being epilogue or next expansion stuff, with them going through a Darkspear episode first. We'll know by 8.2.5.

As regards Voss, unless Nathanos changes track at the last minute, she's regrettably the last character with a decent chance of leadership who maintains at least a bit of what the Forsaken are about. God knows the entire old cast are irrelevant and the alternative are Calia and Derek.

[Zandalariprelate]

Blizzard literally doesn't know what to do anymore, the warchief title being just a death sentence and ruining the alliance with making them more passive than an arcane mage only shows the incompetent team of writers they have doesn't know how to write a plot besides of the villain of the week.

[KrakHed]

Don't remind me. I made myself sad enough by remembering BTS.



I wouldn't be surprised honestly, this one seems set to wrap up N'zoth, so things like Bwon's ties to Talanji, Taelia meeting Bolvar and the whole thing surrounding the Forsaken being Calia-ized might end up being epilogue or next expansion stuff, with them going through a Darkspear episode first. We'll know by 8.2.5.

As regards Voss, unless Nathanos changes track at the last minute, she's regrettably the last character with a decent chance of leadership who maintains at least a bit of what the Forsaken are about. God knows the entire old cast are irrelevant and the alternative are Calia and Derek.

Yeah. At this point, I've learned that it's best to bet on a writer's pet character rather than fan favorites or characters who were there from the beginning.

Lydon and Helcular are neat and all, but I don't think the writers remember they exist or who they are half the time. They don't care about most Forsaken characters. However, there are definitely writers who like Sylvanas, definitely at least one who likes Nathanos despite turning him handsome for some reason and missing the point. Since Voss has repeat appearances, someone definitely likes her too. Oh, and some people probably like Calia.

So these are the only Forsaken characters who really matter, because they're the only ones who someone would push for inside of Blizzard.

[Syegfryed]

I think they need to start building up a ton of new characters. The Forsaken are probably going to need some too. Ugh. The fucking Forsaken plot still hasn't started yet.

they had the perfect opportunity with the council

rly, a council of lordaeron undeads leading would be awesome, but they needed to be sacrificed for the big plot

they didn't realize they had such a good plot to work on and just kill then off.

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Well, there's also the matter that the Forsaken base is all Goblin architecture. There is a datamined Forsaken Archway, though. Completely unused. So, I very much think Darkshore was a rush job.

to be fair, by location and time, it would be way hard to bring forsaken structures, and more easy just use the goblin ones who are close

They should have give the title right to Sylvanas after Garrosh was done.
Vol'Jin's warchief story was ....non-existent and purely useless.

or they should not give him to her, at all, like never

[Super Dickmann]

they had the perfect opportunity with the council

rly, a council of lordaeron undeads leading would be awesome, but they needed to be sacrificed for the big plot

they didn't realize they had such a good plot to work on and just kill then off.

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to be fair, by location and time, it would be way hard to bring forsaken structures, and more easy just use the goblin ones who are close



or they should not give him to her, at all, like never

The concept of a Forsaken regency going its own way while Sylvanas was Warchief-ing was a good one. The execution of a bunch of sad humans who just want to die and hug their loved ones was atrocious, just like everything else regarding the Forsaken in BTS.

Though honestly, councils in WoW in general are the ultimate example of "You think you do, but you don't." Either the second the council materializes it becomes irrelevant, making the race disappear like the dwarves or one person and race ends up controlling everything anyway like the Alliance. Blizzard can't write teams without them vanishing or all eventually coming to the same opinion.

@KrakHed

We know Golden likes Calia and Golden has a great deal of narrative control. Afrasiabi will be happy so long as he can keep the sadorc circlejerk going, so I don't believe he has any stake in the Forsaken short of taking revenge on Kosak for killing Garrosh by killing Sylvanas in an identical plotline. It's a three man race between Calia, Voss and Nathanos, but Nathanos' largest pusher can't detach him from Sylvanas, which will only fuck things up. The characters we as Forsaken players give a shit about are so low on their priority list that they're reduced to cameos in their warfront to focus on some whinging bitch that used to be a night elf character and their interpersonal drama.

[Terongor]

He has literally done something every Expansion lol, that meme has been dead since MoP

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Because he's a better character and more sensible then half of the Warcraft roaster of characters

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They're not teasing Thrall, he specifically said he won't lead the Horde, but he will fight for it. There's a difference. But me personally I think Thrall is going to die trying. I don't think Sylvanas is going to fail or fall like everyone is speculating
____________________________________________
Lor'themar has been the most leader like character out of them all, I'd like to see that because I think it would take a more Imperial turn for the horde, but yeah I don't want to see them dramatically change his character in Garrosh fashion. Atleast Sylvanas has always been like this just in the shadows and small doses! But I don't think Lor'themar would want to lead the horde, he still hasn't taken the title of King for his people

What did lor'themar do in WoD? Or in legion what other leaders didn't do? Besides in prepatch recruiting nightborne which as it was prepatch and only available to people who pre bought bfa which means its bfa content.

[KrakHed]

We know Golden likes Calia and Golden has a great deal of narrative control. Afrasiabi will be happy so long as he can keep the sadorc circlejerk going, so I don't believe he has any stake in the Forsaken short of taking revenge on Kosak for killing Garrosh by killing Sylvanas in an identical plotline. It's a three man race between Calia, Voss and Nathanos, but Nathanos' largest pusher can't detach him from Sylvanas, which will only fuck things up. The characters we as Forsaken players give a shit about are so low on their priority list that they're reduced to cameos in their warfront to focus on some whinging bitch that used to be a night elf character and their interpersonal drama.

I'm not sure how much power Golden has, but I think the staff respect her characterization. From what I know, she's mostly writing cinematic dialogue. Her Sylvanas is clearly a snarky villainess, she loves Anduin and Jaina, uses Baine as her Horde perspective, and she's the only one who's written for Calia so far. Her Genn exists to be Anduin's new dad. I could definitely see her pushing for Calia. She's clearly not into darker themes, and her Genn's not what most Worgen fans want.

Afrasiabi seems to be in the "Sylvanas was always a villain" camp, with the lines about Wrathgate. The way he talks about her is the way I'd expect someone to talk about Arthas. They're good as a villain, but he doesn't want them in charge of everyone. He wants badass Orcs in charge, and his last dude was turned into Hitler. I think he took charge and added the Saurfang plot after BFA was already well into production, and I don't think the team is willing to gut content for narrative reasons like they did in WoD anymore.

So I think the Sadorc Saga began as a way to wait out the plot points that were set in stone or already in production, which is why there was so little ingame, until they reached a point where the narrative could be properly shifted without scrapping anything major. I expect his only terms for the Forsaken is that they don't screw up the Orc story more than they already have.

Fortunately, I don't think Anduin and Baine are his style. While he's fine with Orcs being sad, that's a prelude to Orcs getting over it and being badass. Looking at the aesthetic of Stonetalon Garrosh, his tastes are clear enough. He wants Orcs that are both savage badasses and honorable heroes. I don't think Calia is cool enough for him and his idea of the Horde.

Danuser likes Nathanos and turned him pretty, a mistake IMO, but I'm not sure how he thinks of the Forsaken in general. All I know is that he seems to love Game of Thrones, and thinks the recent episodes were brilliant. I've never watched it, but I heard there was a massive quality drop and the plot was stupid. I'm not sure where he ranks in the writing team, or what his agenda might be, but I expect he's a fan of big shocking moments, shitty twists, and being "morally grey". He was the one who first included romantic implications between Nathanos and Sylvanas in his short story, if I recall properly.

I think there's a good chance Danuser's taste is, in some ways, worse than the other two.

If the Forsaken are to make it out of this shit intact, they're going to need people pushing for them to be "fucking metal" or "cool". They probably have better chances than the Night Elves.

[Alex86el]

oh wait you mean furry gandhi.

..yes!

[Super Dickmann]

If the Forsaken are to make it out of this shit intact, they're going to need people pushing for them to be "fucking metal" or "cool". They probably have better chances than the Night Elves.

Sylvanas is a lost cause. None of the three writers write her well. Afrasiabi has her as a strawman to jerk off about muh honor, Golden has her as a strawman to jerk off over human potential and Danuser has her as his favorite's waifu but has more interest in Nathanos than he does in Sylvanas herself. Hence why in the next patch she has all of 40 seconds of dialogue of which half is twirling her mustache and the other half is talking about Nathanos. The best characterization she's received so far was from Brooks, but then Brooks also produced the best (i.e only good) Saurfang thus far by an order of magnitude. It's a crime he's put in the novella ghetto while these hacks get to do their thing.

This would be fine if the writers recognized that the Forsaken had more going for them than Sylvanas and more reasons for their direction than that the Grey Woman told them that humans were bad, but we're dealing with a team completely ignorant of the Forsaken or in Golden's case, actively against their present direction. That and they write characters, not societies. Since Sylvanas is a wash and the Nathanos-stan in this lacks interest in the Forsaken as whole, Voss and bizzarely enough Derek being told he can't go home again are the only signs we have of the living-dead divide staying and by proxy the Forsaken's characterization staying.

While I deeply dislike Afrasiabi's influence in this one, he is less damaging than Golden in the long term in the sense that once Sylvanas dies or runs off or whatever his interest in the Forsaken vanishes and he can just write about muh honor to his heart's content. That and if he really was the guy to do Silverpine, which I think was more Kosak's baby, he knows that he can do both orcs and Forsaken and have them both be in character. Drek'thar's spiel looks like something he'd make and that was really good, ditto the counterpoint with Cromush and Orkus as more positive orcish interactions with the Forsaken.

That said, both he and Golden are pro-unifaction and thus pro-reconciliation, which is irrelevant for the Kalimdor Horde given that orcs are basically a dead race since Mists, so who cares, but terrible for the Forsaken because it leans in a pro-Caiia direction. I think the entire team is either ambivalent towards Calia, since for instance Danuser is only interested in Nathanos and Sylvanas rather than the Forsaken as a whole, or pro-Calia like Golden and Afrasiabi are.

[Evaddon]

What did lor'themar do in WoD? Or in legion what other leaders didn't do? Besides in prepatch recruiting nightborne which as it was prepatch and only available to people who pre bought bfa which means its bfa content.

Not him personally, but leadership roles and what he contributed too. Legion he was at the Broken Shore and an again contributed to the Suramar Campaign. You know a leader, most leaders don't fight unless they absolutely need too

[Dagoth Ur]

I just hope they don't use all this to pin the blame down on title of Warchief itself. I mean that'd be stupid, since they're the ones writing our warchiefs into the bin every other expac
.
I'd maybe tolerate depowering the Warchief through giving more importance to advisors, but leave what's iconic to the Horde alone.

[KrakHed]

Sylvanas is a lost cause. None of the three writers write her well. Afrasiabi has her as a strawman to jerk off about muh honor, Golden has her as a strawman to jerk off over human potential and Danuser has her as his favorite's waifu but has more interest in Nathanos than he does in Sylvanas herself. Hence why in the next patch she has all of 40 seconds of dialogue of which half is twirling her mustache and the other half is talking about Nathanos. The best characterization she's received so far was from Brooks, but then Brooks also produced the best (i.e only good) Saurfang thus far by an order of magnitude. It's a crime he's put in the novella ghetto while these hacks get to do their thing.

This would be fine if the writers recognized that the Forsaken had more going for them than Sylvanas and more reasons for their direction than that the Grey Woman told them that humans were bad, but we're dealing with a team completely ignorant of the Forsaken or in Golden's case, actively against their present direction. That and they write characters, not societies. Since Sylvanas is a wash and the Nathanos-stan in this lacks interest in the Forsaken as whole, Voss and bizzarely enough Derek being told he can't go home again are the only signs we have of the living-dead divide staying and by proxy the Forsaken's characterization staying.

While I deeply dislike Afrasiabi's influence in this one, he is less damaging than Golden in the long term in the sense that once Sylvanas dies or runs off or whatever his interest in the Forsaken vanishes and he can just write about muh honor to his heart's content. That and if he really was the guy to do Silverpine, which I think was more Kosak's baby, he knows that he can do both orcs and Forsaken and have them both be in character. Drek'thar's spiel looks like something he'd make and that was really good, ditto the counterpoint with Cromush and Orkus as more positive orcish interactions with the Forsaken.

That said, both he and Golden are pro-unifaction and thus pro-reconciliation, which is irrelevant for the Kalimdor Horde given that orcs are basically a dead race since Mists, so who cares, but terrible for the Forsaken because it leans in a pro-Caiia direction. I think the entire team is either ambivalent towards Calia, since for instance Danuser is only interested in Nathanos and Sylvanas rather than the Forsaken as a whole, or pro-Calia like Golden and Afrasiabi are.

Well, if Afrasiabi wrote Silverpine, and I'm willing to believe that, then he's probably created the best faction war and Forsaken content I've ever seen. So what the fuck happened here? Hell, Stonetalon was also one of the best zones in Cataclysm, unless my memories are fucked. I remember it more fondly than all the Taurajo shit. Where's the reference that he write Silverpine?

I've already explained my theory that they rewrote the plot too late to change all of what went ingame, so I'm not surprised that the best Saurfang content is from right before the stupidest plot decision ever, AKA Teldrassil burning. I honestly think Teldrassil is what absolutely fucked the plot in the end. Who thought that was a good idea?

However, I think, or at least I hope, that Calia is just too much an aesthetic mismatch. I mean, can you even imagine Calia's concept in Halloween town, decorated with spikes, spiderwebs, and skulls? Visual style communicates personality. They could gut the Forsaken style, but would they want to? Would that be cool or Horde-y?

The artists have some influence over story too. Taelia Fordragon, for instance, only exists because an artist had the idea for her. She's this dude's OC: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/e0PGqJ

Would any artist want to replace Forsaken design with holy shit?

[Taeldorian]

I don’t play horde so take my opinion with a grain of salt but I honestly think the warchief position is just a clown fiesta. They should really consider a war council or something.

Thrall, Saurfang, Baine, Lor’themar, Valtrois/Thalryssa, Rokhan/Talanji, Nathanos (if his story calls for it)/Lillian Voss and Gazlowe. I feel like this would make for a pretty diverse war council with possibly differing views that could potentially make for interesting story lines without having to kill, get rid of or choose a new warchief every new expansion.

[Super Dickmann]

Well, if Afrasiabi wrote Silverpine, and I'm willing to believe that, then he's probably created the best faction war and Forsaken content I've ever seen. So what the fuck happened here? Hell, Stonetalon was also one of the best zones in Cataclysm, unless my memories are fucked. I remember it more fondly than all the Taurajo shit. Where's the reference that he write Silverpine?

Ah, I see you have patrician taste. The trio of Tirisfal's new quests, Silverpine and Hillsbrad are the Forsaken's best representation. Vanilla is good, but scattered. Wrath is a huge amount of fun, but it's also cartoonishly evil to a level that the BFA can only dream of being. The Cata zones on the other hand actually do explore the Forsaken past being dicks. Solid stuff all around.

But no, I think Kosak wrote those, much like he wrote Edge of Night. Afrasiabi did do her in Wrath per his explanation and honestly, I can tell, because ICC Sylvanas is a lot like BFA Sylvanas, just with more quips and before Patty got into the role enough to be able to sell most of the dross given her, warden towers aside. WPL Sylvanas is also a lot like that. The only reason I'm bringing up that possibility is that he claims he's written her for years and that they have Garrosh reminding her that one day we all meet judgment, some sooner than others, which could either be seeding for a villain role that ended up delayed to BFA or Kosak preparing to reverse this on poor Garry later given that the zone casts her in a very positive light for the Forsaken otherwise.

However, I think, or at least I hope, that Calia is just too much an aesthetic mismatch. I mean, can you even imagine Calia's concept in Halloween town, decorated with spikes, spiderwebs, and skulls? Visual style communicates personality. They could gut the Forsaken style, but would they want to? Would that be cool or Horde-y?

That's a good point and one Iv'e been thinking about myself, but it's also the reason why I find Darkshore suspicious. One of the reason to cut costs and only do a bare minimum of Forsaken assets is that you're preparing them for a brief turn in the style of the 5.3 Kor'kron and you're saving your big guns for when you wholly redesign their aesthetic. The Night Elves got more assets because they didn't have this problem, hence the use of goblin things as filler. Can you toss up a link to the archway you mentioned?

[KrakHed]

That's a good point and one Iv'e been thinking about myself, but it's also the reason why I find Darkshore suspicious. One of the reason to cut costs and only do a bare minimum of Forsaken assets is that you're preparing them for a brief turn in the style of the 5.3 Kor'kron and you're saving your big guns for when you wholly redesign their aesthetic. The Night Elves got more assets because they didn't have this problem, hence the use of goblin things as filler. Can you toss up a link to the archway you mentioned?

Got you covered. It was apparently added into the files at the same time as Darkshore, but it's present nowhere ingame as far as I know. Darkshore feels like a rush job. Even the Night Elf stuff is mostly shit. I really don't think Blizzard intended to revisit the Forsaken and Night Elves so soon, and it shows with how Darkshore compares to Stromgarde. Only one commander for each faction, and aren't they mechanically identical Wardens?

[Super Dickmann]

Got you covered. It was apparently added into the files at the same time as Darkshore, but it's present nowhere ingame as far as I know. Darkshore feels like a rush job. Even the Night Elf stuff is mostly shit. I really don't think Blizzard intended to revisit the Forsaken and Night Elves so soon, and it shows with how Darkshore compares to Stromgarde. Only one commander for each faction, and aren't they mechanically identical Wardens?

Fee fo fum, I smell the blood of a Battlefield: Barrens 2.0 asset. I do like it though. I'm a sucker for the new Forsaken stuff, it's a damn shame there's so little of it. The capital ship is the most gloriously over the top thing we've got in a while.

Yeah, the wardens are exactly the same. There was datamined Nathanos and Malf audio, but that got ditched. A shame, because it got some good views. I agree that the whole thing was scraped together and was like a rush job meant to reduce the damage of Teldrassil. Which does get me wondering how the Delaryn stuff was meant to go originally. She's clearly set up to be raised, but it might have been that it was meant to happen sooner and that the Sira addition was just a rush job for the sake of cost-cutting.

[KrakHed]

Fee fo fum, I smell the blood of a Battlefield: Barrens 2.0 asset. I do like it though. I'm a sucker for the new Forsaken stuff, it's a damn shame there's so little of it. The capital ship is the most gloriously over the top thing we've got in a while.

Yeah, the wardens are exactly the same. There was datamined Nathanos and Malf audio, but that got ditched. A shame, because it got some good views. I agree that the whole thing was scraped together and was like a rush job meant to reduce the damage of Teldrassil. Which does get me wondering how the Delaryn stuff was meant to go originally. She's clearly set up to be raised, but it might have been that it was meant to happen sooner and that the Sira addition was just a rush job for the sake of cost-cutting.

I don't think it's so much about cost-cutting as it is that the datamining showed Azshara to likely be the next Warfront. So it makes sense we got a bunch of Goblin junk instead of actual Forsaken assets. Delaryn was probably for later.

[Super Dickmann]

I don't think it's so much about cost-cutting as it is that the datamining showed Azshara to likely be the next Warfront. So it makes sense we got a bunch of Goblin junk instead of actual Forsaken assets. Delaryn was probably for later.

The goblin stuff is just reused Motherlode assets. But yeah, I can buy that Delaryn was meant to be raised later on. Hence also why it's all so inconsequential.

[KrakHed]

The goblin stuff is just reused Motherlode assets. But yeah, I can buy that Delaryn was meant to be raised later on. Hence also why it's all so inconsequential.

Oh right. I almost forgot that Motherlode, formerly Kezan, was a dungeon in this thing. It's a shame that our one Forsaken Warfront is such a piece of shit, but I guess the armor is cool.

[Super Dickmann]

Oh right. I almost forgot that Motherlode, formerly Kezan, was a dungeon in this thing. It's a shame that our one Forsaken Warfront is such a piece of shit, but I guess the armor is cool.

Yeah, I like all the armor, a damn shame that it's led by a character that isn't Forsaken in a zone that has fuck all to do with the Forsaken fighting an enemy with no connection to the Forsaken, all strung together with reused assets.

Ship is nice tho.