Sylvanas "so unique" fate

[Kyphael]

What char development?
She went from I must kill Arthas who inflicted this atrocity to me, to I'll use valkyr to raise new forsaken in an online novel between wotlk and cata.

I meant the other shit since Cataclysm that would have been non-existent if she took the Helm of Domination and sat her ass down in the Frozen Throne until they decided to dust her off again.

[Super Dickmann]

Ner'zhul success was because of Arthas alone and he was a very capable minion, even Tichondrius mentions this in the meeting of Dreadlords. Bolvar has the PC doing his bidding and even so in the attack of the chappel, they got rekt by the light again and he even mentions the PC DK is the only one that is preventing him to take full command of the ebon blade(the mount questline) and probably his forces at best can fill for 1 patch and 1 raid at best, with all the buffed characters we have now, there is zero chance for the current scourge to win.

Nah, Ner'zhul engineered his freedom and got the sword to Arthas personally, manipulating the dreadlords in the process as well, arranging for the Cult of the Damned and so on. Arthas was just his tool up until he put the hat on. Chronicle even beefs Ner'zhul up more. But I think you're misreading what Bolvar's relationship with the PC DK is. It's not that he's afraid of the PC, it's that he trusts the PC's abilities and will and is giving him the courtesy of the Ebon Blade. If he fails, he'll just assume direct control and carry on.

As for powers levels, I could write about how we should've been weakened or that he now has more DKs and so on, but let's face it, all power in this game is relative. I do agree with you though that he'd not be able to carry a whole expansion. Definitely good as a recurring villain.

This was retconned in the Chronicle book, the alliance and horde would had one in a full war against the scourge, this is why Arthas wanted to lure the most powerful champions to ICC and raise them to destroy the alliance and horde, besides both sides would have been depleted by that point in his calculation

Can you toss me the page, because that sounds like really hamhanded retconning. In WotLK Arthas could kill us at any time he just chose not to because of his sense of fair play (???).

Well in live he is still voiced by the old lich king voice actor but yeah out of sudden he cares about balance when he doesn't have any means to even know what is that balance that Bwonsamdi is speaking, besides of the shit he pulled in legion in the back of everyone....I just have the headcanon he is lying about balance so people won't found out his new plan.

Same. Guy doesn't give a shit about the balance. He is unnatural too, the only difference he has with Sylvanas is that he actually does MC scores of undead and attack his allies and also that unlike her he gets away with it and doesn't have to SKREE to get his way. Also he isn't an old god puppet.

[Zandalariprelate]

Nah, Ner'zhul engineered his freedom and got the sword to Arthas personally, manipulating the dreadlords in the process as well, arranging for the Cult of the Damned and so on. Arthas was just his tool up until he put the hat on. Chronicle even beefs Ner'zhul up more. But I think you're misreading what Bolvar's relationship with the PC DK is. It's not that he's afraid of the PC, it's that he trusts the PC's abilities and will and is giving him the courtesy of the Ebon Blade. If he fails, he'll just assume direct control and carry on.

Yeah you can be scheme a lot of plans but if the minions or something happened that you didn't saw coming you still can't do shit, that is why the villains always lose in general and wow is not exception, he was lucky Arthas was desesperate enough to pick the sword and even that backfired on him because Arthas mind rape him until he became into a screaming voice inside of the helmet aka a screaming reek. About Bolvar I saw that dialogue more like the classic joke: No pressure, just know everything will go to hell if you fail but not presure pal, which made me laugh at that moment of the quest.

As for powers levels, I could write about how we should've been weakened or that he now has more DKs and so on, but let's face it, all power in this game is relative. I do agree with you though that he'd not be able to carry a whole expansion. Definitely good as a recurring villain.

While true we got weaker from the legion war, the leaders are reaching to superheroes levels and probably Jaina could fight Kel'thuzad at his peak and probably even win the battle alone, we have more civilizations joining the factions, the iron stars can be a nice kamizake thing to destroy a lot of armies from the scourge easily, the blight has been perfected and could kill a lot of the scourge minions in zones that nobody will care, also the vindicar and the goblin cannon are still up to fire the icecrown citadel. Besides Bolvar has been reclused in Northrend and the ebon blade doesn't seem very eager to throw themselves to fight for Bolvar.

He is a tricky in the how to use him, if we do Wotlk 2.0 it would be short lived like the Iron Horde in WoD and his best role he could be like Xavius or Elisande in the first tier of Legion, he isn't very friendly either so we can't get a tourist guide to the shadowlands and probably he doesn't even know how to pass the veil either.

Can you toss me the page, because that sounds like really hamhanded retconning. In WotLK Arthas could kill us at any time he just chose not to because of his sense of fair play (???).

Page 164 or in this video Min: 3:45:00: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xr7DZ8rCig&t=13219s

Key words: It would not be enough to conquer the world through sheer force. Many others had tried that and failed. To control Azeroth, the lich king would enslave the strongest creatures within, the great champions who had arisen within the alliance and the horde

Same. Guy doesn't give a shit about the balance. He is unnatural too, the only difference he has with Sylvanas is that he actually does MC scores of undead and attack his allies and also that unlike her he gets away with it and doesn't have to SKREE to get his way. Also he isn't an old god puppet.

Nah he hasn't get any attention yet to be ruined, something that wow has teach over the years, no deed goes unpunished, for example Jaina playing the hero and bailing out from her friends and family when they need her most, her city was nuked and her entire life is just a giant fail in everything she had ever tried, Sylvanas well I don't need to express more, Velen got his life wreak and was roasted by Illidan the king of bad decisions which tells a lot about him, Bolvar is just waiting for the raid of Icc or the shadowlands versions or the Frozen Throne.

Honestly I am done with the scourge and doesn't look more dangerous than the orcs in WoD, however the land of the death that has some promising stuff, it can finally shine with the undead and dead spirits once again, bonus if this is like the decaying realm of Nurgle(which is probably the inspiration they will took for the boss of bwonsamdi and the big deal of the shadowlands/death land)

[Ielenia]

Wrath of the Lich King 2.0 but with an elf instead of a human? Yawn, boring.

I wouldn't discard the idea right off the bat. I mean, wasn't Legion basically "TBC 2.0" with the Burning Legion and all that stuff?

[Varodoc]

I wouldn't discard the idea right off the bat. I mean, wasn't Legion basically "TBC 2.0" with the Burning Legion and all that stuff?

No, because the Broken Isles are objectively better than Outland. If Legion was set entirely on Argus? Then yes, you would be right.

There aren't many places where Wrath 2.0 could take place. Aside from Northrend, only the Shadowlands, and many seem to drool over the concept of "Shadowlands". I doubt that this bleak wasteland of death could really serve as the main setting for a new expansion, it doesn't seem to have a lot of variety in its flora and fauna at all.

[Ielenia]

No, because the Broken Isles are objectively better than Outland. If Legion was set entirely on Argus? Then yes, you would be right.

There aren't many places where Wrath 2.0 could take place. Aside from Northrend, only the Shadowlands, and many seem to drool over the concept of "Shadowlands". I doubt that this bleak wasteland of death could really serve as the main setting for a new expansion, it doesn't seem to have a lot of variety in its flora and fauna at all.

Sylvanas could re-take Undercity and make that place her seat of power as the 'Lich Queen', for one.

[Mehrunes]

Dude is a lot more like the Ner'zhul-style Lich King from WC3 than Arthas ever managed to be, intentionally so I guess. He just sits on his chair and commands his minions, all his power is implicit. Like how he essentially takes over the Ebon Blade in Legion just by threatening to loose the Scourge and then uses them to get himself more horsemen and tests their loyalties with the attack on the Church. He has that mix of fire and ice in his aesthetic that can look really cool, judging by some fanart and the Scourge are the one bad guy group we didn't really beat since we're told Arthas was holding them back and could've won at any time.

Bolvar and Ner'zhul are only similar on the surface level in that they both freeze their asses off on the Frozen Throne. Other than that, Ner'zhul was a scheming mastermind outsmarting even Kil'jaeden while Bolvar brilliantly tells the Ebon Blade straight on that he will try to enslave them if they fail to meet his expectations, revealing his hand for no reason.

I wouldn't discard the idea right off the bat. I mean, wasn't Legion basically "TBC 2.0" with the Burning Legion and all that stuff?

TBC 2.0 with Legion is just TBC 1.0.

[Super Dickmann]

Bolvar and Ner'zhul are only similar on the surface level in that they both freeze their asses off on the Frozen Throne. Other than that, Ner'zhul was a scheming mastermind outsmarting even Kil'jaeden while Bolvar brilliantly tells the Ebon Blade straight on that he will try to enslave them if they fail to meet his expectations, revealing his hand for no reason.

It's not like he loses anything from revealing this to them. I mean what are they going to do? Tell anyone about it? He can hijack their brains at will and only doesn't because of his sense of fair play.

Yeah you can be scheme a lot of plans but if the minions or something happened that you didn't saw coming you still can't do shit, that is why the villains always lose in general and wow is not exception, he was lucky Arthas was desesperate enough to pick the sword and even that backfired on him because Arthas mind rape him until he became into a screaming voice inside of the helmet aka a screaming reek. About Bolvar I saw that dialogue more like the classic joke: No pressure, just know everything will go to hell if you fail but not presure pal, which made me laugh at that moment of the quest.

He wasn't lucky. Ner'zhul engineered this entire chain of events and tricked everyone, including the dreadlords, into achieving this chain of events in giving Arthas the sword. Sure, Arthas betrayed him at the end, but he had no way of knowing that since he was damaged by Illidan and dying at the time. Ner'zhul (and KT, who he hired) was the reason for the success of the Scourge. Arthas was just their chosen dupe to advance their freedom from the Legion through.

Man, I miss my boy Ner'zhul. WC3 Reforged when.

While true we got weaker from the legion war, the leaders are reaching to superheroes levels and probably Jaina could fight Kel'thuzad at his peak and probably even win the battle alone, we have more civilizations joining the factions, the iron stars can be a nice kamizake thing to destroy a lot of armies from the scourge easily, the blight has been perfected and could kill a lot of the scourge minions in zones that nobody will care, also the vindicar and the goblin cannon are still up to fire the icecrown citadel. Besides Bolvar has been reclused in Northrend and the ebon blade doesn't seem very eager to throw themselves to fight for Bolvar.

Again, we can argue about their power level and I figure we heavily disagree on how strong the Scourge still is, especially given how much trouble Sylvanas, a much worse necromancer and strategist with substantially fewer resources is making for people, but the ultimate point is that this isn't something that can't be adjusted storywise. The Iron Horde itself should've been far more dangerous than it actually was, given numbers, technology and how the factions should've bled each other dry at that point. But it wasn't and it was weaker than both the Legion and Deathwing yet still temporarily an expansion villain. The Horde goes without saying.

Key words: It would not be enough to conquer the world through sheer force. Many others had tried that and failed. To control Azeroth, the lich king would enslave the strongest creatures within, the great champions who had arisen within the alliance and the horde

You're misreading the line. This is in reference to Arthas' new motivation of taking over the world with undeath to defeat the Legion and the Void. He can still conquer the world just with the Scourge, but in order to contest the higher powers he apparently needs champions like the PCs. Hence why he allows them to get as strong as possible before killing and raising them. This is marginally less stupid than it was in Wrath where he was only holding back because he had goodness to him.

Honestly I am done with the scourge and doesn't look more dangerous than the orcs in WoD, however the land of the death that has some promising stuff, it can finally shine with the undead and dead spirits once again, bonus if this is like the decaying realm of Nurgle(which is probably the inspiration they will took for the boss of bwonsamdi and the big deal of the shadowlands/death land)

G'huun's been the closest we got to a god of disease and he got really shafted. I actually like him a lot more than a lot of people here seem to, but he got offed in a super disappointing way. I am equally as happy to go into a Shadowlands themed expac though.

[Mehrunes]

It's not like he loses anything from revealing this to them. I mean what are they going to do? Tell anyone about it? He can hijack their brains at will and only doesn't because of his sense of fair play.

Can he really? Arthas couldn't. And there's nothing indicating Bolvar is stronger than him.

[Super Dickmann]

Can he really? Arthas couldn't. And there's nothing indicating Bolvar is stronger than him.

Both Arthas and Ner'zhul were psychically controlling all their henchmen. The DKs only broke free because of the Church (I think).

[Mehrunes]

Both Arthas and Ner'zhul were psychically controlling all their henchmen. The DKs only broke free because of the Church (I think).

Well, yes, they control the Scrouge psychically. Just like Bolvar. And they couldn't regain control over undead that broke away from Scourge. As Forsaken's case shows, even swapping out the Lich King doesn't solve this and the new Lich King can't mind control the free-willed undead even if they broke free during the reign of the previous one. So there shouldn't be a way for Bolvar to just mind control the Ebon Blade whenever he wanted when his betters couldn't do it either. Which leaves only killing them and reraising them. Which is precisely why telling the Ebon Blade of the contingency plan about regaining control over them was idiotic.

[eurojust]

So she would literally become Arthas 2.0? And then Wotlk 2.0 happens?
This is so stupid. Seriously anything related to "there must always be a Lich King" should be forgotten. This was the worst moment of WoW.

Oh and the helmet won't fit on her head anyway because of the ears.

[Super Dickmann]

Well, yes, they control the Scrouge psychically. Just like Bolvar. And they couldn't regain control over undead that broke away from Scourge. As Forsaken's case shows, even swapping out the Lich King doesn't solve this and the new Lich King can't mind control the free-willed undead even if they broke free during the reign of the previous one. So there shouldn't be a way for Bolvar to just mind control the Ebon Blade whenever he wanted when his betters couldn't do it either. Which leaves only killing them and reraising them. Which is precisely why telling the Ebon Blade of the contingency plan about regaining control over them was idiotic.

The entire new four Horsemen are raised by proxy through the LK's power. This also applies to the fodder troops you recruit and Darion himself. Also, you have to remember that he only says this to the PC, after this is already done and the Horsemen are guys who he should be able to control. His initial threat is that he'll cut the Scourge loose if they don't do what he wants them to do. He doesn't show his hand except to the guy who's basically the willing executor of his will.

[Mehrunes]

The entire new four Horsemen are raised by proxy through the LK's power. This also applies to the fodder troops you recruit and Darion himself. Also, you have to remember that he only says this to the PC, after this is already done and the Horsemen are guys who he should be able to control. His initial threat is that he'll cut the Scourge loose if they don't do what he wants them to do. He doesn't show his hand except to the guy who's basically the willing executor of his will.

I mean, raising things, by proxy or otherwise, is the Lich King's entire shtick. The previous Lich Kings did that as well, Val'kyr being the prime example. That Bolvar can do so in no way shows that he can mind control free-willed undead. And the willing executor of his will is 1. the leader of the whole bunch at this point that could inform them at once and 2. the former Argent Dawn member that dedicated their original life to fighting the oppression of the Lich King and then, after getting Scourged, broke free and fought his oppression some more (then there's the case of Forsaken DK which also had the Forsaken step on top of that). There's no reason for the PC DK to be so swell with Lich King's threats of trying to regain the control over the Ebon Blade, which is yet another reason why Bolvar telling them that is stupid.

[Super Dickmann]

I mean, raising things, by proxy or otherwise, is the Lich King's entire shtick. The previous Lich Kings did that as well, Val'kyr being the prime example. That Bolvar can do so in no way shows that he can mind control free-willed undead. And the willing executor of his will is 1. the leader of the whole bunch at this point that could inform them at once and 2. the former Argent Dawn member that dedicated their original life to fighting the oppression of the Lich King and then, after getting Scourged, broke free and fought his oppression some more (then there's the case of Forsaken DK which also had the Forsaken step on top of that). There's no reason for the PC DK to be so swell with Lich King's threats of trying to regain the control over the Ebon Blade, which is yet another reason why Bolvar telling them that is stupid.

The point is that he raised all of the Horsemen through the PC, ergo he can control them, since they never broke free. They have personality, but they all basically agree to follow the LK anyway with zero assessment of their circumstances. This applies to Darion as well. While he claims at the start that he isnt' bound and that is an alliance of convenience, this changes once he's raised. He broke free, then he died again and when he was raised he was raised by the LK and is suddenly gung-ho about following him.

I see now what I did not see before. My destiny was written long ago.

The PC meanwhile accepts the mark of the Lich King at the end of the intro, so he's also implicitly tied to the LK at least until the plot mandates he's free.

[Mehrunes]

The point is that he raised all of the Horsemen through the PC, ergo he can control them, since they never broke free. They have personality, but they all basically agree to follow the LK anyway with zero assessment of their circumstances. This applies to Darion as well. While he claims at the start that he isnt' bound and that is an alliance of convenience, this changes once he's raised. He broke free, then he died again and when he was raised he was raised by the LK and is suddenly gung-ho about following him.


The PC meanwhile accepts the mark of the Lich King at the end of the intro, so he's also implicitly tied to the LK at least until the plot mandates he's free.

Even if the Horsemen are bound to the Lich King that still doesn't mean that the Lich King can regain control over the entire Ebon Blade with mind control. Your own point about Darion showcases precisely as to why that'd be the case, i.e. he was reraised by the Lich King after he died.

[Super Dickmann]

Even if the Horsemen are bound to the Lich King that still doesn't mean that the Lich King can regain control over the entire Ebon Blade with mind control. Your own point about Darion showcases precisely as to why that'd be the case, i.e. he was reraised by the Lich King after he died.

He doesn't need to take control over the old guard necessarily, not when he controls the leadership as well as the new death knights made as henchmen during the course of the order hall story. The DKs prior to that are always dwindling by default since they have no motive or ability to make more, whereas those made in Legion and at any point after that are tied to the LK.

[Verdugo]

Seriously anything related to "there must always be a Lich King" should be forgotten. This was the worst moment of WoW.

But Metzen REALLY liked At worlds end...

[Varodoc]

Sylvanas could re-take Undercity and make that place her seat of power as the 'Lich Queen', for one.

So what you are suggesting is that the next expansion take place in Lordaeron?

[KainneAbsolute]

I don't think she's going after Bolvar.

As of now, I'd put my money on her trying to cut out a piece of Shadowlands for herself. It's sounds ridiculous, but all that "Death is mine to master" nonsense kinda makes me think it's something along those lines.

Probably, we found many characters who have some control of the domain Death. Maybe she wants to create her own or stole it from someone else.