Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[Fabinas]

you’re hilarious and arguing a point that isn’t in contention and trying to pretend you’re owning me with it. Good luck with that.

And you're just sidesteppin'. I'll be waiting in the next corner, keep it up, i can wait.

[Skulltaker]

And you're just sidesteppin'. I'll be waiting in the next corner, keep it up, i can wait.

The guy ran out of arguments like... 5 pages ago, and is desperatly hanging on to 'but the writers said...' while they didn't ever say any of the things he claims. Fucking hilarious. It's like watching someone on a sinking ship saying 'Nah, the crew said we're fine, that's just the ship maneuvering.'

[Ausr]

Can you guys take this shit into PMs and not clog up the thread with bullshit?

[Fabinas]

Yeah, I’m not sidestepping anything. The debate is about whether or not Cap could live in the same reality the MCU took place in. The writers contend he could and the free will argument holds no water since none of the, were displaying free will as it was the 1 out of 14 million possibilities Strange foresaw. Tell me why he couldn’t.

Cap lived in an alternate timeline with Peggy. End of story.

[Skulltaker]

Not sure what your point is with the going out and socializing. Who cares? As for the PSAs, those were created post New York. They weren’t WW2 era. You’re forgetting there was a massive stretch of time where he was basically not in the world. If he jumped to 10 years later(which would make sense as it would align the time he spent in the future with being in the ice) and just said “I get that a lot” or wore glasses and the like it’s not inconceivable, using comic logic, he’d escape detection. Whatever, though, you’re clearly just inventing reasons to be right at this point.

Oh, and the id shit is the easiest. His wife was director of shield. Like she couldn’t get him documents. Smh

You not getting the point is becoming a reccuring theme in this thread, you know?

If Cap goes out and socializes, he is recognized. Him being recognized changes the entire timeline. Which cannot happen.

I don't need to invent anything to be right, I simply am right. You haven't provided a single consecutive piece of evidence to back anything you claim up. You entire theory is faulty and illogical. You've been struggling for several pages now to save face, because you picked a shitty hill to die on, and refuse to budge. I can respect your determination, but you're still wrong.

Cap living in an alternate timeline is the only explanation that doesn't leave any issues to be explained. It is the only theory that doesn't create a paradox.

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Yeah, I’m not sidestepping anything. The debate is about whether or not Cap could live in the same reality the MCU took place in. The writers contend he could and the free will argument holds no water since none of the, were displaying free will as it was the 1 out of 14 million possibilities Strange foresaw. Tell me why he couldn’t.

I've told you a dozen times by now why he couldn't. Him being there creates scenarios that cannot come to pass, and thus, he cannot be there. Could he write a letter to SHIELD that Hydra has infiltrated them? No. He couldn't. Since it would alter the timeline, which is impossible. Therefor, he cannot be there.

They all followed their free will and made their own descisions. These descisions were the one. Not the other way around. You can of course keep sticking your fingers in your ears and pretend that it holds no water, butthat doesn't make you any less wrong.

[Skulltaker]

Bullshit. Clark going out didn't get him recognized as Superman. And show me one scenario that could not have come to pass, you've yet to do so. Just because we don't know about undercover cap in the past doesn't mean he didn't exist then. We don't actually know a whole lot about the past of the MCU beyond what we've seen on screen.

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@Skulltaker for reference on the going out shit, see the history of comic books and secret identities. Then remember this is a comic book universe. Also remember that he ran around in Winter Soldier with a hat and some glasses on and it was enough to disguise him. At the height of his fame.

The hight of his success was during and after WW2. And yes, it was bullshit in Winter Soldier aswell.

Here is the scenario. He walks into SHIELD Headquarters and tells... well, whomever was director at that time that he is Captain America, and that Hydra is still alive and kicking within SHIELD. This is a descision he can make. He's a human being, he can do whatever he pleases. There mere possibility of him doing it makes it impossible. This is exactly what Hulk tells us in the movie.

Everything he does can have unforseeable consequences.

[Goldielocks]

On the “we think” aspect. That means that’s what their intention was. As they specifically state, only the act of removing a stone creates an alternate timeline. Cap’s presence wasn’t disruptive enough to the fabric of reality to do so.

This is wrong, and the Russos have confirmed it as wrong. Why do you keep arguing?

[Goldielocks]

Because Feige avoided taking one side or the other. The writer’s also disagreed with them and gave an actual reasoned answer that showed they thought about it when writing it. Joe just pulled an answer out of his ass. As he is known to do.

The writer's reasoning makes no sense whatsoever. The time travel rules exist to stop the Avengers from going back and killing Thanos as a baby. Every other point follows up from there to keep the logic of the film consistent. If going back to kill Thanos as a baby creates a new universe, it also means that taking stones from a reality would also create a new universe.

Please tell me how in your paradigm, how removing a stone of godly power and killing someone are equitable, but Steve reshaping the last 40 years isn't.

[Goldielocks]

How is he reshaping the last 40 years by retiring and being a stay at home father? And if they already exist in a timeline where he did so, nothing he does after retiring changes anything. Him retiring isn’t the same because killing Thanos removes their impetus to travel back to kill Thanos. Him living in the past COULD do the same, but not necessarily. Especially, again, if he was always the father of those kids. As the the writers of every movie involved claim.

Except that's exactly the reason why their answers differ.

Steve basically sits on all the knowledge he has and puts the lives of others at risk just to force the idea that Steve was there the whole time. Steve could've saved Tony's parents. He could have stopped Hydra. He could have done tons of great things all while not lifting a finger. Peggy could've done the work instead.

Nope. Didn't do that.

That isn't Captain America and I refuse to accept this. The Russos have it right.

[Goldielocks]

Nobody said he had to sit on his hands for everything. He very well could have done some Nomad style shit where nobody knew he intervened. He just didn’t intervene in the big shit because it all worked out. Or maybe he told strategic people and they helped stifle Hydra’s influence. Bottom line is, unless he directly interfered with his own timeline anything could have happened and always have happened. We just haven’t heard about it yet.

All of that is extremely arbitrary and forced. Steve could’ve created a new timeline where he lived in a happier version of Earth but didn’t do it because he HAD to remain within the same universe. The logic eats itself. Steve went to the past to get his happy ending, and could have gotten it by creating a new universe. The fact that Steve stopped himself from interfering makes no sense at all. He doesn’t need to do it.

The Russo’s explanation makes far more sense.

[Goldielocks]

And if he does that he could create a worse Earth because the Avengers are never at the point required to defeat Thanos. Him living in the past at all makes no sense. I get that you like the Russo's more, but right now we just don't know whether there's going to be a "Secret Adventures of Captain America" referenced in Captain Falcon and the Winter Soldier or not.

That last part is a massive assumption on my part that we'll find out one way or the other in their series.

It was already an assumption to assume that creating new timelines is conditional on how much it influences events. There’s no evidence to prove that. The only proof that it works this way is the word of mouth outside the film by the writers. Meanwhile, the idea that changes are static and aren’t conditional is a far safer assumption because otherwise it would be vague and convenient.

I know the writers really badly want our real Peggy to have her happy ending, which is why all of this happened, but they really fucked up here. The directors and writers not agreeing is a massive red flag. Good writing is concise and easy to follow.

[Goldielocks]

It's weird you're saying it's all down to the writers but the writers are wrong. Basically they had some bad writing in there. Which is something I said around 3 weeks ago... Glad you came around to my way of thinking.

Really what I’m saying is that the writers fucked up and aren’t willing to accept that their script has an obvious flaw in it. So, they created reasoning on the spot to justify their script choices.It makes sense, considering how much we’ve praised them for the Marvel scripts they’ve given us. They’ve grown arrogant.

There’s a reason why the Russos have spoken out against them and why Feige hasn’t. The latter wants to work with them again. The Russos are done with Marvel.

[Goldielocks]

Or, and hear me out here, Hulk isn’t an expert on time travel. His exposition was semi-accurate, but ultimately arrived at some erroneous conclusions.

I’d rather not, because the opposite has no evidence for being true within the film.

Considering that the film’s highest level creators disagree and neither has more power than the other (The Russos contributed to writing the script), it makes in-film explanations all the more valuable.

[Ausr]

We’re debating the film...

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We have 2 different official statements regarding that that disagree on whether it’s the case or not. And we have one evasive answer from the ultimate source designed to leave it up in the air. How is it the end of story just because a Russo pulled an answer out of his ass?

Yeah, multiple pages of debating the film by stating the same things over and over again. Go send love letters to each other.

[Fabinas]

And if he does that he could create a worse Earth because the Avengers are never at the point required to defeat Thanos. Him living in the past at all makes no sense. I get that you like the Russo's more, but right now we just don't know whether there's going to be a "Secret Adventures of Captain America" referenced in Captain Falcon and the Winter Soldier or not.

That last part is a massive assumption on my part that we'll find out one way or the other in their series.

Your whole argument is your own fan scenario to "explain" Cap's appearance as an old guy on the bench. Since the finished movie gives details on what happens when you travel to the past and (part of ) the finished movie is from the writers, they just flunked. At any rate, the director(s) is the God of a film. It's their version of the story. I'll take their version which is consistent with the time travel rules your writers wrote down, instead of your version, which is contradicting itself (like the writers do). You keep blabbing about "your" Endgame, we know we saw the original one.

[Svifnymr]

Except that's exactly the reason why their answers differ.

Steve basically sits on all the knowledge he has and puts the lives of others at risk just to force the idea that Steve was there the whole time. Steve could've saved Tony's parents. He could have stopped Hydra. He could have done tons of great things all while not lifting a finger. Peggy could've done the work instead.

Nope. Didn't do that.

That isn't Captain America and I refuse to accept this. The Russos have it right.

That's why I don't like him being in the MCU Prime timeline, the idea that he went back and just ignored everything that would happen because it wouldn't matter just seems wrong to me.

That said, if Steve Rogers went back in time and became Jim Joebob and didn't make major alterations to history, then the rules of the film would mean no timeline split occurred. A minor fluctuation would result in overall the same story and not diverge, correct? So as long as Captain America discarded his ideals of helping people and stuff, and just let all the bad stuff happen, there's really no reason to assume it would create a divergent timeline and he could live out his peaceful life kissing his niece and having kids that weren't allowed to tell people who their dad was while Hydra killed untold numbers of innocents.

Also, for his identity, I know he was a "performer" in WW2, and then a special-forces type, but was any of that unmasked anyway? I don't recall the museum exhibit off hand, so maybe it's addressed in there. Either way a beard and longer hair would probably cloak him well enough with a fake identity and not hanging out with Peggy's work associates.

[Mahourai]

Like just set aside the "time travel" plot. Obviously it makes no sense and is incoherent trash. That's whatever. Time travel plots are always gibberish.

Go to the start of the film. Captain Marvel has rescued Stark and Nebula, and after Stark and Steve have it out, Steve asks Stark if he has any info on Thanos's whereabouts, which Stark does not. But luckily Nebula chimes in with the hint that Thanos always told her he would head to "the Garden" after finishing his great work. Immediately thereafter, Rocket Raccoon reveals that the energy surge of the Infinity Gauntlet was detected on a remote world two days ago, and this must be the Garden world Nebula just mentioned.

Except none of this makes any sense. Rocket, or whatever information network he's plugged into, detected the Gauntlet being used. Nebula's information isn't relevant at all, there's no need to know the world the Gauntlet was used on is "the Garden". In fact if it occurred two days ago there is no explanation for why anyone was unclear about Thanos's location prior to the arrival of Stark and Nebula. Why did Rocket just now receive or present this information?

The easiest answer is that the scene is a combination of rewrites and reshoots of the same storyboard beat - "the heroes ascertain Thanos's location" - with no attempt made to have the lines of various characters cohere. Either Nebula's scene was shot first and Rocket's was added later so it didn't seem absurd that "the Garden" was enough info to locate Thanos, or Nebula's scene was shot after, perhaps as her role in the film became more central.

[Ophenia]

The easiest answer is that the scene is a combination of rewrites and reshoots of the same storyboard beat - "the heroes ascertain Thanos's location" - with no attempt made to have the lines of various characters cohere. Either Nebula's scene was shot first and Rocket's was added later so it didn't seem absurd that "the Garden" was enough info to locate Thanos, or Nebula's scene was shot after, perhaps as her role in the film became more central.

Probably. You're right that felt extremely weird hearing this kind of conversation:
Nebula: I have critical information, I know where he is
Everyone: listening
Nebula: He said he would hide in "The Garden".
Everyone: Okay ?
...
Rocket: We detected the same energy spike as when Thanos snapped on this planet
Everyone: ... does it look like a Garden ?

I don't even see how Nebula's information is relevant.

[tyrlaan]

Falcon did also become Captain America at one point, but I think anyone who says him getting the shield over bucky makes sense is painfully naive - there's definitely a political agenda behind it. Sebastian Stan is hugely popular (especially amongst the female MCU fans go figure) whilst everyone I talk to about it finds Anthony Mackie just annoying, which he kinda is. Shame but not hugely surprising, I really hope we see more winter soldier going forward.

Then I guess the Russo brothers are "painfully naive"? They have a pretty good answer about why they ultimately went with Falcon over Cap. I mean, I'm not surprised that people, especially on these forums, will bitch and moan about the decision as the "SJW" move or whatever, but sometimes the grand conspiracy just isn't there.

Good on you with the anecdotes that people don't like Mackie. I counter your's with mine - everyone I talk to find Mackie to be amazing and made us like Falcon, who we pretty much hate in the comics.

Side Note: Damn, people, why the fuck are we still debating the time travel rules of this movie?

[tyrlaan]

It's obvious, falcon became Cap for 2 reason

Politics and Budget
Politics is obvious
And in the falcon and winter solider TV show, it will be cheaper to have Mackie use a shield than add in the CGI wings

Go on being naive, I really don't care.

So you assume the directors are either lying or idiots so you can support your fantasy that this was an SJW move. Got it.