A playerbase divided

[Uurdz]

So as I'm sure many people are aware after browsing this site and others, the WoW Classic beta has begun to a great deal of fanfare.

However, I can't be the only one to have noticed the massive increase in hostilities between the retail and classic crowd? You have both sides creating pejorative terms to describe the others, such as "retail babies" or "nostalgia purists".

So I suppose my question and the point of this thread is to ask how do you predict this will all turn out?

I personally believe the community is fractured beyond belief and it's sad that so many who once shared a favourite pass time are now attacking each other over what essentially amounts to their personal preference.

In my view there hasn't been an increase. There has always (since 2015 at least) been significant hostilities which draw down to 1 simple viewpoint.

Retail players do not want Blizzard spending development resources on Classic which means they miss out on additional content
Classic players want the opposite.

Hostilities on the internet, and in this circumstance, are generally a snowball. Once they start, they continue to grow.
Each side thinks the other is immature or spiteful and then name calling grows and grows.

Toxicity will always exist here, until people choose to stop repeating the cycle of hate/disdain.
This mirrors the world.

[clausuk57]

Sorry...I played vanilla and my original Warlock even has a vanilla pvp rank achievement. You can lie and pretend all you want....but vanilla isn't as complex and *hard* as you try to make it seem. All it was is a grindfest.

PvP is DEFINITELY harder, with spell batching and a lot more niche spells, it makes for a lot harder gameplay.

Making mistakes in vanilla is also very harsh, especially in PvP, in BFA you can fuck up like 10 times every arena and reach 2.2k rating.

[Flurryfang]

I'm not sure where you've been, but they're already following the method of what gives the most money for least resources spent.
Why do you think we got farmable legendaries in Legion with a low droprate, but was ESSENTIAL for your spec to perform and impacted how the gameplay of it felt?
Why do you think they were spec specific so you had to farm 6 of them in order to play a hybrid class to its fullest potential?

Trust me, Blizzard was following player retention protocol long before Classic was a thing and it's damaged their game enough as it is.
Also, whatever revenue they gain from Classic will just be funneled into Retail either way. Once they have the infrastructure set for the 7.3.5 engine to layer old data on top of, they can just start importing TBC and WotLK files with fairly little effort and development involved.

Ohh i know this is an attitude already set into motion, and which is something every single company does today if they want to be succesfull. I just refer to the idea of creating new things compared to reusing past things. If Blizzard can live on republishing the past, they will do so instead of creating new things.

The idea of reveneu from Classic being funneled into Retail is an odd assumption. I think Blizzard already have a roof on the amount of money being spent on Retail and all other reveneu will just be added to the profit at the end of each quarter. When it comes to dollars invested vs dollars gained, i think Blizzard have found the roof of diminishing returns on WoW retail, compared to newer products.

[Tumile]

I don't see problem with going to classic when you have nothing to do on retail.



Well, that is something to consider definitely because I am not sure I am willing to go to start a character from scratch. This can definitely be a reason for good portion of playerbase to not roll on classic.



Well since you have to pull me for my tongue - I don't PvP but I had world first and world 3rd in PvE. IT engineer degree, designing degree and securing myself a nice high end job as senior-programmer, got driving licence on first attempt just a year ago.

I also learned that these externals do not matter because they do not define who I am, they just make me more desirable on market with my skills. Usually for people who brag with their achievements, their self value is reflected through the work they are doing. That is called low self-esteem or self-respect. I'm glad I know for better. You play PvP too so I am not surprised with this comment.




OP asked what we predict, I gave my answer. I am not mad about it nor I have reason to be. I just like to share my opinion when chance appears. I don't care what Venruki thinks. I have my own opinion which I value the most. I don't need Venruki or whoever to tell me if the game is fun or not. I'll try it for my self and decide.

I would appeal that infraction for your post get removed, I am not easily offended by bad words.

Proof of your World first? Gimme dat Source boi. Also the fact that your severe autism made you unable to pick up on the oldest meme in the history of the internet made you look real confident and not just socially awkward.

Also Grats on your Drivers License, kind of a weird flex but okay. only person ive ever heard failing a drivers license is my sister, and I'm not really sure how she got it on her 2nd try, wouldn't dare sit in a car with her behind the wheel.

[Flurryfang]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but as long as you have a retail subscription classic is free to play. You are grossly overestimating the income blizzard will make from classic. Yes, it is true some people will sub only for classic. But the “hardcore player base” you are referring to will be subbed whether there is classic or not. That is not extra income blizzard makes. Those players would be subbed regardless. They might have put little effort into it, but they also arnt going to make near as much as they would with an expansion.

When i refer to "losing the hardcore playerbase" i does not mean, that Blizzard is losing their sub, but instead interest from Retail. The reason why hardcore players are important, is because they are the creaters of much of the community around the game. They are the hard "core" of the game, making it easier to interact with the game because of their work. If we lose them to Classic, Retail will be poorer for it and it will come to show in the income for the game.

Classic have potential, as it is not something new that needs to be tested. Blizzard can pick and choose the best of the best from each expansion, skip past failed features, broken mechanics and make something that is generally better than the previous experience( just like every relaunch of a game should be). If they succede in making the right choices, we will proberly see Blizzard get up from their current low and back on track.

[Gungnir]

Ohh i know this is an attitude already set into motion, and which is something every single company does today if they want to be succesfull. I just refer to the idea of creating new things compared to reusing past things. If Blizzard can live on republishing the past, they will do so instead of creating new things.

The idea of reveneu from Classic being funneled into Retail is an odd assumption. I think Blizzard already have a roof on the amount of money being spent on Retail and all other reveneu will just be added to the profit at the end of each quarter. When it comes to dollars invested vs dollars gained, i think Blizzard have found the roof of diminishing returns on WoW retail, compared to newer products.

I definitely don't think they'd focus on only publishing "old content", especially since they've seen themselves that if they can get their PR right and have a semi-decent foundation on a new expansion, a new expansion release can easily peak 10m+ subs which FAR outweighs any monetary gain they might get from Classic/TBC/WotLK rereleases.
Even so, the games aren't competing for the same playerbase. Most retail players likely won't give a shit about Classic/TBC/WotLK, but it gives them a chance to reel in older players.

If they start funneling the profits into WoW and manage to make a solid expansion on top of also being able to provide older server iterations for the players who've quit over the years, they could hit an all-time high with 10m+ resubs on top of a 3 - 4 million playerbase already on Classic/TBC/WotLK servers should they happen down the line.
They also cash in on a LOT of positive publicity by providing those servers which will have a financial benefit on all their platforms because it builds trust for the publisher.


I know you have your reservations, but from what I've seen thus far, I can't see this being anything but a win for Blizzard and their playerbase.

[schwank05]

I don't see it as hostility. I just think that so many fans like me have been let down with the current "Retail" version of the game, now this point in time is different for many people, for instance I loved the game and Raided through CATA after that I felt the game has been complete shit and I have started to unsub sooner and sooner each expansion the last abomination only 3 weeks. We miss the game when realms were flourishing and busy with people, your name meant something and your server reputation was all most really cared about. That is what most of us are hoping classic brings back for us, honestly I didn't have all the much fun in Vanilla, TBC was my best time in wow I had the most fun and discovered healing it was just perfect so I hope in the end Classic does the job enough to warrant they release TBC servers.

[Maudib]

So as I'm sure many people are aware after browsing this site and others, the WoW Classic beta has begun to a great deal of fanfare.

However, I can't be the only one to have noticed the massive increase in hostilities between the retail and classic crowd? You have both sides creating pejorative terms to describe the others, such as "retail babies" or "nostalgia purists".

So I suppose my question and the point of this thread is to ask how do you predict this will all turn out?

I personally believe the community is fractured beyond belief and it's sad that so many who once shared a favourite pass time are now attacking each other over what essentially amounts to their personal preference.

It's natural to take "sides" and choose Team Classic or Team BfA... and people tend to defend their "team".

Modern WoW players are afraid (and rightfully so) that Classic will hurt their game's population. They try their best to downplay the hype... even when they thenselves are feeling some of it.

On the other side, Classic players as angry that WoW has changed so far from the game they used to love. Of COURSE they would love to have seen WoW progress in storyline and content but remain true to the original game along the way... so they feel cheated out of that.

Soon enough though... it will all settle down. Both teams will be happy and playing their game.

That is, unless BfA loses even more subs to Classic.

It is quite possible that modern WoW expansions slow down or even cease if Classic versions do just as well with a whole lot less investment. Since I don;t play modern WoW anymore, I could care less if it's another 5 years before they release a new expansion. As long as I get Classic TBC and Classic Wrath at least.

[keldarepewpew]

Both sides fear the other, classic players are afraid retail people will ruin classic before it comes out. On the other side we have retail fans comming i to the classic. Forums making threads to provoke people out of fear of retail getting less attention then it deserves. Humans really are weak little beeings always lashing out at eachother when they feel threathened. Both sides really should just leave the orher alone but it wont happend such is the nature of the beast.

[spalernTJ]

For the love of gods. I see more threads like this "OH LOOK, VANILLA PEOPLE AND RETAIL PEOPLE ARE AT WAR," "LISTEN GUYS, CLASSIC IS GONNA BEAT RETAIL OH MY GOSH" And "RAGNAROK IS HERE." Than actual threads... That these threads refer to.

[niztheundead87]

It's natural to take "sides" and choose Team Classic or Team BfA... and people tend to defend their "team".

Modern WoW players are afraid (and rightfully so) that Classic will hurt their game's population. They try their best to downplay the hype... even when they thenselves are feeling some of it.

On the other side, Classic players as angry that WoW has changed so far from the game they used to love. Of COURSE they would love to have seen WoW progress in storyline and content but remain true to the original game along the way... so they feel cheated out of that.

Soon enough though... it will all settle down. Both teams will be happy and playing their game.

That is, unless BfA loses even more subs to Classic.

It is quite possible that modern WoW expansions slow down or even cease if Classic versions do just as well with a whole lot less investment. Since I don;t play modern WoW anymore, I could care less if it's another 5 years before they release a new expansion. As long as I get Classic TBC and Classic Wrath at least.

Then classic cata and mop and wod

[Tumile]

I do understand that people think BfA isn't a good expansion, and the points you are making about vanilla being better is something I certainly agree on. Not the whole idea of vanilla, because I think it was slow, slower than BfA even when it comes to classes and so I can't see why it was better then. Some do, and of course we all think different. But the whole idea of delving into the game, use time to progress your character and so on is something I miss. That's why I think Legion was way better than BfA, but also WoD, MoP, Cata and WotLK because in Legion it required you to use time and effort to progress.

I do miss the old times, but for me it's The Burning Crusade. Vanilla had it's good days, and travelling, long dungeons, exploring was something I truly enjoyed. I think that TBC took away some of the very slow things with vanilla and focused more on content, even though it wasn't as much content it is in "modern" WoW. It's some nostalgia here though, so I am a little biased since I had so much fun in TBC.

BfA got problems, no doubt. I think it is too easy. Character progression that is. Azerite system is just there, it doesn't require you to do an effort to be done with it. Gear comes from too many sources, I read that the devs think so too, but hey, we'll see it when it happens right

BfA is the first expansion I have enjoyed PvP since TBC, and world PvP is something that has been an eye-opener for me. It started with changing main to Demon Hunter(hey, one flaw with vanilla, no Demon Hunters!) then it just came off on my other chars and I think it's really fun. I am a casual when it comes to PvP though, so if the systems are shit or not compared to other expansions/seasons, I can't really say. I do have fun however, and that might encourage me to do more.

And no, I played shit ton in BfA so far too :P

BFA Season 1 Was pretty good. It wasnt Cata/MoP levels of good, but it was up there. they added the Malediction trinket and literally killed the PVP scene in 1 swoop. TBC PVP was probably the absolute worst though. I loved it back in the day, but going back to it now it really was pretty trash. Stunherald, mace Rogues, Oneshot ele shamans, SL/SL locks, and the CC was insane, melee classes never get to move against good players. TBC was my Absolute favourite for PVE though, even when going back now on private servers. If TBC had launched instead of classic i would have personally have preferred that. but any of the first 3 is a gift that im more than happy to accept. I wouldnt ever want cata/MoP back even tho i think that was the Absolute Best PVP we have ever had in WoW, with fun gameplay, and insane skill ceilings.

I don't think we would agree on a lot of aspects of wow though :P I've always been a sweaty nerd, and played fairly high end, which kinda makes me detest classes like Demon hunters that are a plague to the game, just like DK's and Monks. they are all anti-fun classes, just like people used to cry about rogues being anti-fun back in the day, which was definitely true, it has nothing to do with being overpowered or what not, DK's ruined the experience of every other played in Season 9, even though they were pretty underpowered. same is true for Demon hunters now in BFA Season 2. that doesn't mean they arent fun to play yourself though, I'm just a stubborn old gold, and refuse to play those classes because of their poor Design, such as Demon hunters having literally everything, making them really stressful to play against, Purge, Dispel, Insane Mobility, High cleave damage, ranged interrupts for days etc. its fundamentally flawed when classes get too many tools to play with, just like how Death Grip is fundamentally flawed full stop. Remove it from the game for Both PVP and PVE's sake, thanks.

Vanilla had slow PvE gameplay, but its as i said, it's not like BFA is more complicated, its just doing the same simple button presses at 30 APM instead of 10 APM, both are pretty slow compared to most other games out there, so the difference is kinda moot for me.

[Soon-TM]

Oh baby, i have predicted this a while back (easy prediction btw)

Its going to be chaos on forums.
Its going to be an "all out WAR"

I dont apporve of this "war"

What should be said is that Vanilla and Retail are 2 different games for 2 different audiences...they can coexist in peace.

Get ready for the demand requests to change retail to be like classic....

Oddly enough, the Classic subforum was spammed to no end (until shortly ago) with demands to change Classic to be more like retail, e.g. that paladins should have the same, or almost the same DPS of a rogue (while retaining all of their utility, no less LUL).

I can just assume that you weren't browsing the Classic subforum by then.

[Big Thanks]

Oddly enough, the Classic subforum was spammed to no end (until shortly ago) with demands to change Classic to be more like retail, e.g. that paladins should have the same, or almost the same DPS of a rogue (while retaining all of their utility, no less LUL).

I can just assume that you weren't browsing the Classic subforum by then.

Yeah i wasnt damm, thats really bad

Me prediction will only hold true if Classic is extremely successful. Which im still in doubt.

[Ielenia]

However its still WAY harder than retail though, but still not "hard".

It's not. Time it takes to finish a task =/= task difficulty.

[Big Thanks]

It's not. Time it takes to finish a task =/= task difficulty.

Stop trying to twist reality (sorry for the hostility in my words)

By definition, Classic's questing is HARDER.

Mobs hit for more.
Parry more
Dodge more
Elite mobs in the world and quests
They run and call for help (if im not mistaken)
You cant pull 3 mobs of your own level.

By definition this is "harder" than retail.

[Has lost its way]

Stop trying to twist reality (sorry for the hostility in my words)

By definition, Classic's questing is HARDER.

Mobs hit for more.
Parry more
Dodge more
Elite mobs in the world and quests
They run and call for help (if im not mistaken)
You cant pull 3 mobs of your own level.

By definition this is "harder" than retail.

I would agree leveling is harder but dungeons at least when compared against the highest difficulty are not. There isn't really anything challenging in Classics end game till aq 40 and naxx and even then only naxx can kinda compete with mythic if you squint hard enough.

TBC was the expansion with hard dungeons and a more challenging end game. I like classic but its end game won't be near as hard as live.

[niztheundead87]

Stop trying to twist reality (sorry for the hostility in my words)

By definition, Classic's questing is HARDER.

Mobs hit for more.
Parry more
Dodge more
Elite mobs in the world and quests
They run and call for help (if im not mistaken)
You cant pull 3 mobs of your own level.

By definition this is "harder" than retail.

sorry to break this bubble for you but 1.12 was the nerfed version of classic after the normalization of dmg , aka mobs hit lower than original classic
mobs used to have an multiplier that indicated the chance to parry dodge or miss and each mob had a different one , at 1.12 they removed that.
if you dont believe me watch streamer videos , there was no way in original classic you could pull more than 3 red mobs ( more than 3 lvls higher than yours) and survive

https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/...epancy_in_mob/

https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/...ic_of_dungeon/

sugar coat it all you want but what you get is nerfed vanilla

[Big Thanks]

I would agree leveling is harder but dungeons at least when compared against the highest difficulty are not. There isn't really anything challenging in Classics end game till aq 40 and naxx and even then only naxx can kinda compete with mythic if you squint hard enough.

TBC was the expansion with hard dungeons and a more challenging end game. I like classic but its end game won't be near as hard as live.

I agree...even though we have no endgame dungeons on Beta and we have absolutely no information so far.

I believe Vanilla dungeons were all a matter of "not over pulling" and "do not mess up" and "dont sleep healer".

I imagine it as a residentsleeper emote while doing the dungeon...and while you are in a sleepy state...you mess up and die.
Its the only way to fail in Classic IMO

I could be completely wrong

- - - Updated - - -

sorry to break this bubble for you but 1.12 was the nerfed version of classic after the normalization of dmg , aka mobs hit lower than original classic
mobs used to have an multiplier that indicated the chance to parry dodge or miss and each mob had a different one , at 1.12 they removed that.
if you dont believe me watch streamer videos , there was no way in original classic you could pull more than 3 red mobs ( more than 3 lvls higher than yours) and survive

https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/...epancy_in_mob/

https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/...ic_of_dungeon/

sugar coat it all you want but what you get is nerfed vanilla

A lot of assumptions beeing thrown around. I choose to wait and see for the opinions of Pros.
Those threads have pitiful data being thrown around :S

[Has lost its way]

I agree...even though we have no endgame dungeons on Beta and we have absolutely no information so far.

I believe Vanilla dungeons were all a matter of "not over pulling" and "do not mess up" and "dont sleep healer".

I imagine it as a residentsleeper emote while doing the dungeon...and while you are in a sleepy state...you mess up and die.
Its the only way to fail in Classic IMO

I could be completely wrong

- - - Updated - - -



A lot of assumptions beeing thrown around. I choose to wait and see for the opinions of Pros.
Those threads have pitiful data being thrown around :S

They had some annoying mechanics as well. In strat their was a debuff that just flat out stopped all healing from working and lasted for 10-15min. You more or less had to bring a druid or kill the zombie packs by kiting them.

Scholo had mobs immune to all damage but holy magic and physical. You could die but it wasn't the same thing as a dungeon from live.