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  1. #301
    The only real question here is if you can chainpull/not CC. That means it's too easy. Anything else and it's likely accurate. While WoW players of today might just pull entire packs and AOE them down that's not traditionally something you can do in games. Hell in old EQ (or Project 1999) even pulling something your level, god forbid higher, was likely a death sentence if you were solo unless you were one of the classes that could kite or root-rot.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    It's pre-TBC classic, it's fine.

    hunters in pvp are nightmare for clothies tho. Having that giant red cat popping right next to you out of stealth with like 200% speed and immune to CC (or just 200 fucking frost resist), she'll just munch you to death with hunter laughing at you and popping viper sting.
    It's not fine.
    It's not the vanilla experience and now as I wrote before in a edit, I think I understand why dungeons seem to be easier than people remember

    Many classes have different talents and are definitely more viable:

    - Druids
    - Paladins
    - Hunters
    - Priests

    Those four because of ultimates

    And any class because of better talent trees ( you can compare here if you like http://www.classicwowtalents.appspot...ent=11215875_7 )

    Definitely a bad thing to start with those talents tree from the beginning.
    They are still in time to change their mind.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overdispersion View Post
    There are a lot of contributing factors to why the dungeons feel so easy on beta:
    1. people know what telents to pick for max dps. this wasn't the case in early vanilla since resources were so scarce and the fact that having max level at 30 atm incentivizes picking max dps talents instead of a lot of survivability talents while leveling because you were so scared of dying and having to corpse run for 5 minutes... also no one is meming in shit specs like trying to heal in feral or elemental talents.
    2. people playing on beta and being lvl 30 are not first time players and generally know the dungeons, have keybound every ability, can recognise a cc and know not to break it and interrupt abilities that will put a lot of strain on your healers. healers also know damage patterns and won't spam inefficient heal just because people dip to 70% hp.
    3. the people playing beta are somewhat hardcore and will generally commit to finishing a dungeon they signed up for so you don't have issues like having to four man SMGY because your dps had to help his mom do the laundry and left in the middle of the dungeon and it would take your alliance buddies two hours to reach the instance,,,

    I'm sure there's a lot more that I just can't remember atm.
    You won't be picking any dungeon talents while leveling. You can heal in feral up to 50+ dungeons as long as you have enough int gear.

    you don't have to have keybinds in vanilla, you can click your way through almost everything. The only class that "requires" skill in classic is a tank, simply because there is no aoe threat generation so you have to prioritize your sunders. It gets even harder when you have cocky dps in your group.

    people going afk during dungeon runs are a thing both on retail and classic, they are extremely rare but there is no workaround against that.


    bottom line is - dungeons won't magically get harder in classic because more people will play the game.
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  4. #304
    PvE content in classic was difficult by 2004 standards; that's to say a much younger playerbase with poor access to good information, fewer and less reliable addons, and no experience. Sure there were some people, myself included who had come from older games like Everquest, Lineage, DaoC and so on, but none of those were hard by modern standards either.

    Most people in Classic had suboptimal builds, few or no addons, and didn't keybind.

    We are now almost 15 years on from WoW's initial release. Not only has the average age of the playerbase increased, there are also many players who have over a decade's worth of experience. On top of that, we have a bunch of easily accessible resources and theorycrafting tools which people are expected to use as standard in order to understand both class and encounter mechanics, as well as to optimise their characters' output. The result (and Blizzard themselves have stated this explicitly on a number of occasions) is that the difficulty of the top-end content in the game has had to increase substantially in order to compensate for the increase in the skill and creativity of the playerbase.

    From a purely mechanical perspective, Mythic Champion of the Light is a more complex raid encounter than Ragnaros in Vanilla. Something like M Jaina would have been completely unthinkable. Vanilla needs a lot of preparation as far as resistances, consumables and so on, but compared to what we're used to there's almost nothing that requires any skill.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    No, they really don't. They are all easy and you really don't need CC either.
    The worst that can happen in vanilla dungeons is your tank not understanding how threat works, will constantly pull packs with 0 rage, because he didn't saved enough, will dump rage on heroic strikes and rends.

    Or your DPS players will go full retard and don't understand how threat works, that dumb warlock won't stop throwing agony on everything, pulling stuff off the tank because he didn't hit everyone with sunders yet (misses, dodges, parries) and he won't be able to reach a mob (taunt range and resist) that runs towards that warlock who proceeds to run away.

    Often it won't wipe your group if at least someone knows what to do, but it's definitely going to be annoying.
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  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    You can heal in feral up to 50+ dungeons as long as you have enough int gear.
    That's mostly because of "classes(mechanics&abilities)>talents(build)>characteristics(items=role)" design philosophy.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-05-20 at 03:54 PM.
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  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gatto View Post
    It's not the vanilla experience and now as I wrote before in a edit, I think I understand why dungeons seem to be easier than people remember
    I was saying that since the announcement, it's not going to be exact vanilla experience, it's impossible to recreate it and people should tone down their hype
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    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    I was saying that since the announcement, it's not going to be exact vanilla experience, it's impossible to recreate it and people should tone down their hype
    Yeah, I feel like what people really want is sort of a WoW 2.0. Clean slate, no cross-realm functionality, a return to traditional RPG elements and a fresh world/story to discover. Reading between the lines it seems like that's what people hoped Classic would be, but of course that was never a possibility.

  9. #309
    Dungeons were hard 15 years ago because people didn't have a clue.

    I started playing with a regular 2 button mouse and clicked most of my spells. I spammed serpent sting until level 30 because apparently I couldn't read or just had a seriously limited understanding of any mechanic in the game. I didn't know there was an auto run button until BC, I literally sat there and held down "w" to get everywhere (for 2 years). The first time I did ZG the RL typed out the strat for every boss via raid warning because people didn't even know what vent was much less have it downloaded. The hardest part of raiding was getting 40 people with a decent internet connection on at the same time. These are just the nooby things that I can remember, I'm sure there way waaay more that I was totally oblivious to.

    Today's players don't have ANY of these issues much less all of them. Classic will be so much easier then people remember because they've improved so much more than they realize.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    I was saying that since the announcement, it's not going to be exact vanilla experience, it's impossible to recreate it and people should tone down their hype
    Me too, but i thought it was only something given to druids to be more viable.
    I clearly misunderstood.

    However I do accept that the feeling could be somehow different, as anybody else I guess, but stuff like talents is not an excuse.

    The fact that it won't be like the old classic is thing, but pushing towards that direction is clearly giving a duck about those who really wanted vanilla back.

  11. #311
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    On top of everything that was said on this thread, the guys that are doing this are not "new players" and arguably nobody that Will play classic is a "new player". The dungeons are the same that we've been doing while leveling, for 15 years. Yes, you have to autoattack now, but still.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    No thats exactly what do not matter. Content is content and new difficulty is not new content.
    It is bosses get new abilities and work differently that is new... Thank you playing and than trying to deflect 100iq play my guy.
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  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    The only real question here is if you can chainpull/not CC. That means it's too easy. Anything else and it's likely accurate. While WoW players of today might just pull entire packs and AOE them down that's not traditionally something you can do in games. Hell in old EQ (or Project 1999) even pulling something your level, god forbid higher, was likely a death sentence if you were solo unless you were one of the classes that could kite or root-rot.
    correct. this is a pretty objective standard which no one is even addressing.
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  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Elkfingers View Post
    Yeah, I feel like what people really want is sort of a WoW 2.0. Clean slate, no cross-realm functionality, a return to traditional RPG elements and a fresh world/story to discover. Reading between the lines it seems like that's what people hoped Classic would be, but of course that was never a possibility.
    Ofc they want this. But classic fans mostly gived up that retail will ever change its direction. Expanaion after expansion we see how Blizzard push wow in completly different direction. So we atleast pushed for Classic to have atleast some peoper mmorpg experience. It isnt perfect but for those who like playing mmos it is far better than what we have now on retail.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    It is bosses get new abilities and work differently that is new... Thank you playing and than trying to deflect 100iq play my guy.
    Still same content. Nobady gives *** about 1 or 2 new skills on mythic difficulty. Majority of playerbase dont see new difficulty as new content. There is no new boss, lore, enviroment. Nothing. Just same old stuff we have countless times defeated in LFR.

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by vsb View Post
    I don't think that low level vanilla dungeons were hard. They were made for people who never played WoW before, who turn with keyboard and clicks spells with mouse, who disconnect every now and then and plays with 2000 ping. They were hard for noobs. No wonder that world-class players on modern computers breeze through them. I think that high-level dungeons will be harder.
    I still turn with a keyboard and click spells with a mouse. But I'm REALLY good at it after 15 years.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Ofc they want this. But classic fans mostly gived up that retail will ever change its direction. Expanaion after expansion we see how Blizzard push wow in completly different direction. So we atleast pushed for Classic to have atleast some peoper mmorpg experience. It isnt perfect but for those who like playing mmos it is far better than what we have now on retail.
    I miss the glory days of MMORPGs loads, and it's such a shame that in all this time nothing has come even remotely close to creating the kind of experience that WoW and EQ2 provided at launch.

    There's clearly a demand for old school MMOs but pretty much every recent effort has been terrible. I remember a while back Blizzard were developing a new MMO, which was eventually abandoned before they used the assets to create Overwatch - Even though it's super unlikely, I do lowkey hope that they're trying to find something which is solid enough to replace WoW. The constant changes in retail with systems getting designed, scrapped and reworked constantly would make so much more sense if they were pretty much using retail as a huge beta for potential ideas. What if the reason development resources were being allocated to classic was in part to gauge the response of modern audiences to a slower paced, story-driven RPG over the instant gratification of retail? Potentially a testing ground for layering technology as well.

    It's wishful thinking at best and completely making shit up at worst, but I'd love to see another proper MMORPG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Still same content. Nobady gives *** about 1 or 2 new skills on mythic difficulty. Majority of playerbase dont see new difficulty as new content. There is no new boss, lore, enviroment. Nothing. Just same old stuff we have countless times defeated in LFR.
    In fairness, Mythic does make the fights significantly more difficult. In fact I would argue that Mythic is the starting point for encounter design, and then Heroic and Raid Finder difficulties are created via a process of taking abilities away. As a result LFR bosses are completely pointless and there's no discernable character to any of the fights, where Heroic still feels incomplete. The encounters only really make complete sense on Mythic where the pacing, stakes and interactions of all the mechanics are as intended.

    You're right though. It's not new content as such, but that's exactly why LFR especially should not exist. There's a fair case for getting rid of Heroic too, and the reason is the same - it's an easier version of the available content, so it doesn't last as long. People do the easy versions to see said content, but the challenge alone doesn't motivate them so they call it a day. That's a real problem, and the only solution is to take the easy versions away so that if people want to experience all of the content, they have to also step up. I guarantee we would see a massive uptick in Mythic participation were it the only way to ever see the fights.
    Last edited by Elkfingers; 2019-05-20 at 05:01 PM.

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Still same content. Nobady gives *** about 1 or 2 new skills on mythic difficulty. Majority of playerbase dont see new difficulty as new content. There is no new boss, lore, enviroment. Nothing. Just same old stuff we have countless times defeated in LFR.
    By this logic, no one gives a *** about this supposed difficulty of Classic, either. Which was certainly proven by Naxx participation statistics and directly quoted by Blizzard ages ago.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Ofc they want this. But classic fans mostly gived up that retail will ever change its direction. Expanaion after expansion we see how Blizzard push wow in completly different direction. So we atleast pushed for Classic to have atleast some peoper mmorpg experience. It isnt perfect but for those who like playing mmos it is far better than what we have now on retail.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Still same content. Nobady gives *** about 1 or 2 new skills on mythic difficulty. Majority of playerbase dont see new difficulty as new content. There is no new boss, lore, enviroment. Nothing. Just same old stuff we have countless times defeated in LFR.
    If nobody cared they wouldn't do it... The vast majority of people did clear raids in vanilla either. You getting really emotionally invested in the point maybe take a break from the computer.
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  19. #319
    In vanilla, as long as I, as the Priest healer, wasn't directly being slapped around by a mob, almost nobody ever died. Even on bosses.

    Playing the Beta, it still holds true and that's fine by me. As long as you don't get 2+ groups things can be AOE'd down as long as some stuns go out or the occasional sheep on the caster mob.

    The later dungeons are a little harder as the mob density increases. However, people know how to pull things better today than then with actual LOSing and such so I can see those being more of a chore than a challenge.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by hardtofin View Post
    What do you guys think about this?

    I played vanilla and definitely remember them being as hard if not harder than the levelling. The guys in the beta are reporting levelling being MUCH hard than private servers but dungeons being WAY easier. They are talking about the possibility there was a stealth nerf to dungeons in 1.12

    I hope this wasn't the case as easy dungeons will really suck in classic imo, what do you guys reckon?
    People don't know or remember that dungeons were nerfed many times over the first year. There were extra mobs everywhere in the the beginning, some were in circles of eight, some in sets of four on ramps placed close to each other. We didn't need to CC as much after the fixes. Long list of things like this including yellow zones aka contested zones on PvE servers. We had 12 people time we finally pulled together my first Scholo run, there were large circles of mobs just standing there. Maraudon starting adds were reduced two times. Bliz should change the game map at each patch so that all the Coords will be wrong again each time on the websites (this was one reason they purged most of those old posts). People have no clue from all I have seen on Vanilla, most of what I see is what was private servers, but we called those a joke because most of Vanilla was over before 1.12. All these posts are really funny.

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