Everyone in the beta reporting that dungeons are REALLY easy :(

[Ungeir]

When they originally came out, they were 40 man dungeons. UBRS and Strat would take 40 people. The Plague Ghouls in Strat would one-shot anyone within range of their AE poison. When we started MC I doubt there were more than 2-3 purples in the entire raid.

You could 40-man raid UBRS and Strat but it was not the norm. I can't remember ever seeing more than 10-man (and very rarely 15) groups in Strat. UBRS did have some bigger runs, but that was still 10 to 20. Not 40. Many did 5-man Strat and 10-man UBRS.

MC was easily cleared if you had the Fire Resist gear and enough decent players - it didn't require much dps. The difficulty was down to all the things others have mentioned - especially the bad/lazy/ultracasual players.

I remember when we started using dps meter addons in my guild, and found that one hunter was only auto-attacking (with maybe a few abilities once in a while, like 3 arcane shot or similar). When asked why, she mentioned that typing in chat made ability use impossible. We had an AQ40 run with an almost naked priest, who had sold his gear during a ragequit and just wore a few pieces of grey and green gear in some slots. Tons of players had insanely bad builds and gear sets. So much "prestige" gear had awful stats. To be an above average player you didn't have to do much more than not slack, enchant your gear and have reasonable gear/talents. Casual players today min/max and have rotations more optimal than even good players back then.

[Mamercus]

Many LFR end bosses are more demanding on an individual level than all the bosses in MC. LFR groups with mostly LFR tier players can wipe 5+ times on bosses like ToS Kil'Jaeden or even Argus and those are both more mechanically challenging than most vanilla encounters. I remember lots of determination stacks against Archimonde LFR in WoD. Even elite players in vanilla were clickers and keyboard turners. Those kinds of players are virtually extinct from the gaming hobby. They are just on Facebook instead of playing WoW.

I played EQ1 as a teenager and WoW came out when I was a freshman in college. There are a lot of EQ design elements in WoW such as hard hitting bosses that chunk a lot of your health bar that you have to plan heals around. A lot of players played with very sub-optimal specs, bad understandings of things that are well understood like how much hit rating you needed, the wrong weapons, wrong stat allocations, and so on.

As alluded to in other posts, people also wore prestige gear because it looked badass and didn't pay attention to things like terrible set bonuses, useless stat allocations, and so on because there was no simming and basic applications of simple algebra formulas were not widely understood. It was a eureka moment when some dude made a forum post explaining how amazing weapon skill was in raiding even though the formula is something a child could understand. It's just the formula hadn't been widely circulated and the only items to have +weapon skill on them were low level and obscure.

People straight up not keybinding stuff was also more common in classic in part also because there are lots of loooong cooldowns that you will not even have up for every boss encounter because it's literally 30 minutes. Damage numbers from mobs are also very much not standardized both in the classic beta and in actual WoW. For example the non-elite satyr in the teldrassil newbie quest cave will super truck you with his fast attack speed and high damage in the classic beta right now, whereas the elite swamp monster in the south quest is a kitten that barely does anything even fought on-level. So you cannot necessarily generalize that all mobs hit for low damage, because some do extreme damage.

A lot of EQ players were straight up clickers before because of how the EQ interface worked with the memorized spell gem buttons on the righthand side, and took their clicker habits into WoW.

You also cannot say that regen is faster, because it's really dependent on spirit. You can watch some streamer not knowing that he has a ton of spirit gear on and thinking that regen is really fast. If you level a mage in classic beta right now you will see as your mage water becomes more out-dated you will need to drink the entire drink duration every pull until you get some spirit. With no spirit regen sucks real bad and it gets worse as you level up.

[Fistfighter]

Not a bug, dungeons WERE easy in vanilla

[Trend]

There's a fair case for getting rid of Heroic too, and the reason is the same - it's an easier version of the available content, so it doesn't last as long. People do the easy versions to see said content, but the challenge alone doesn't motivate them so they call it a day. That's a real problem, and the only solution is to take the easy versions away so that if people want to experience all of the content, they have to also step up. I guarantee we would see a massive uptick in Mythic participation were it the only way to ever see the fights.

History says the opposite of what you are "guaranteeing". Participation at the highest levels of raiding has absolutely increased with the expansion of different difficulties. It would be absurd if you were trying to say the percentage of players doing mythic raids is now less than the percentage raiding when there was only a single difficulty.

If you had put together raids when there was a single difficulty you would know this. Because when you lost players and had to refill, the options were poor. You either had to cannibalize another raid or you had to bring in someone with a big dropoff in gear and experience. Now you can bring up someone from a lesser difficulty and be much less impacted. It's better for the player too. If someone has been out of raiding for a while they can get their feet wet and get familiar with encounters before coming into a mythic raid for which they will hold back progression.

Plus, if they cut raid participation by at least 70% there would be no way they would cost justify continuing to create the kinds of raids they have been doing.

Lastly, I think you just don't understand that different players are skill capped in very different ways. Some people who love WoW raiding and maybe even play a lot are just never going to be able to raid at a mythic level, unless it is dumbed down and then players on the other end of the spectrum will be bored. Blizzard has very good reasons for having multiple difficulties. Out of all the bad decisions made with WoW, this isn't one of them.

[Elkfingers]

History says the opposite of what you are "guaranteeing". Participation at the highest levels of raiding has absolutely increased with the expansion of different difficulties. It would be absurd if you were trying to say the percentage of players doing mythic raids is now less than the percentage raiding when there was only a single difficulty.

If you had put together raids when there was a single difficulty you would know this. Because when you lost players and had to refill, the options were poor. You either had to cannibalize another raid or you had to bring in someone with a big dropoff in gear and experience. Now you can bring up someone from a lesser difficulty and be much less impacted. It's better for the player too. If someone has been out of raiding for a while they can get their feet wet and get familiar with encounters before coming into a mythic raid for which they will hold back progression.

Plus, if they cut raid participation by at least 70% there would be no way they would cost justify continuing to create the kinds of raids they have been doing.

Lastly, I think you just don't understand that different players are skill capped in very different ways. Some people who love WoW raiding and maybe even play a lot are just never going to be able to raid at a mythic level, unless it is dumbed down and then players on the other end of the spectrum will be bored. Blizzard has very good reasons for having multiple difficulties. Out of all the bad decisions made with WoW, this isn't one of them.

Fair point. I do get that not everyone can compete at a certain level. I guess it's kind of frustrating to have people flat out refuse to even attempt difficulties beyond LFR and them complain that there's nothing left to do.

[Elias01]

By this logic, no one gives a *** about this supposed difficulty of Classic, either. Which was certainly proven by Naxx participation statistics and directly quoted by Blizzard ages ago.

Naxx had low particiation becouse of TBC.

- - - Updated - - -

If nobody cared they wouldn't do it... The vast majority of people did clear raids in vanilla either. You getting really emotionally invested in the point maybe take a break from the computer.

Nobady = vast majority. We are not talking exact numbers. Thats cool there are some people enyoj playing with difficulty slider but such thing do not belongs into mmorpg game. And you cant make comparisons of highest difficulty of bfa to 1 difficulty of classic. Becouae thats not how are games with difficulty settings determined. If i can press 1 button and finish your game afk while watching youtube your game is in fact easy.

[Frolk]

Seemed harder 15 years ago when the majority had no clue what was going on and a constant 20fps or less.

[sil3ntearth]

Classic WAS fucking easy, people were just clueless back then.

Exactly.

This was predicted by many people. We've had a ton of experience since then.

[Crillam]

lfr or normal isn't real content my dude

Don't be mean. He is just a 9 year old

Ugh, some many ppl saying classic now instead of vanilla. So confusing :/

[Collected]

I think there would be something wrong if the dungeons were considered difficult based on the level 30 cap and the fact the beta player base is highly experienced at playing the game. Players are going to be better in 2019 than they were in 2004 across the board.

[shadowmatrix]

Did people actually expect dungeons to still be hard? Your comparing the skills of a 3 week noob to the skills of a veteran with around 10 years of experience.

[Elias01]

Fair point. I do get that not everyone can compete at a certain level. I guess it's kind of frustrating to have people flat out refuse to even attempt difficulties beyond LFR and them complain that there's nothing left to do.

And why would they do that? Hmm? You seriously think that person what enyojs mmorpg game is interested in replayig exact same content just to get drops what are propably worse than anything from world content only too see yourself up difficulty again so you can get gear and up difficulty again. This progression desing is absolutly boring and do not belongs into mmorpg games. It is progression for ARPG games like Diablo 3. In mmorpg dungeons suposti be slow crawls with hard enncounters with proper reward. No difficulty nonsense, no artificial timer to make it artificialy difficult, no rush, no class meta, just your group and hostile instance full of secrets, rares and epic loot. Thats what classic dungeons are about. No this modern compettive nonsene with timer in box.

Same for raids. It isnt even immersive. Whoo look at this epic villian. Now go and kill his 4 versions of him by swaping difficulty sliders in your interface menu. Truly epic.

[Bigbazz]

I did Deadmines on a private server, modern one, it was two things

1. Buggy as fuck
2. Easy as fuck.

Even still, private servers often buff the content to make it harder for various reasons though, such as to combat the fact that they were playing on a final patch where the classes were massively buffed compared to when the content was relevant, or to counter the fact that content might have been nerfed. It's hard for them to make the content "as it was" because during Vanilla it was a moving target.

Combine that with the fact that private servers put their effort for chasing accuracy on what they deem important, low level dungeon tuning is probably not a priority to get perfect. Classic will be facing much the same problems, if all content is tuned as it was in 1.12 it will be a complete farce, because 1.12 classes were godly compared to launch classes.

[Elkfingers]

And why would they do that? Hmm? You seriously think that person what enyojs mmorpg game is interested in replayig exact same content just to get drops what are propably worse than anything from world content only too see yourself up difficulty again so you can get gear and up difficulty again. This progression desing is absolutly boring and do not belongs into mmorpg games. It is progression for ARPG games like Diablo 3. In mmorpg dungeons suposti be slow crawls with hard enncounters with proper reward. No difficulty nonsense, no artificial timer to make it artificialy difficult, no rush, no class meta, just your group and hostile instance full of secrets, rares and epic loot. Thats what classic dungeons are about. No this modern compettive nonsene with timer in box.

Same for raids. It isnt even immersive. Whoo lool at this epic villian. Now go and kill his 4 version of him by swaping difficulty sliders in your interface menu. Truly epic.

You're missing the point. LFR, Normal and Heroic are more accessible versions of Mythic raiding. Mythic is the content, the other difficulties are there for less skilled players to see the cutscenes.

If you're not motivated by the challenge of doing content the way it was intended to be done, then that's on you. It is still content that exists, that I play, and that I enjoy. Mythic progression gives me plenty to do, and if LFR is all you can tackle then that's ok, but you don't get to complain just because you either can't or won't attempt anything more challenging.

The fact is that if you had ever progressed Mythic content you would know that it is, in fact, substantially different and a lot of work goes into making it. You don't attempt it and complain that it reuses the same assets, which is for one only partly true, and for two is fucking ignorant. It's not just a difficulty slider. There are new mechanics, new adds, existing mechanics function differently, and everything has more significant interactions. The fights are literally not the same fights.

[kamuimac]

Fair point. I do get that not everyone can compete at a certain level. I guess it's kind of frustrating to have people flat out refuse to even attempt difficulties beyond LFR and them complain that there's nothing left to do.

what about people who had no problem raiding highest difficulties in past but simply cba anymore because how many years doing hardmodes can be fun ?

because i know fuckton of people like this



and regarding vanilla - if you played back then you would know how ridiculed WoW was exackly because of how easy it was compared to Everquest or Ultima Online

[BananaHandsB]

If you knew what you were doing, these dungeons were easy. People try to pretend like classic was so much harder because it makes them feel like they weren't as big of nubs as they rly were (and probably still are). When I leveled up in classic, I leveled with a bunch of people who knew MMORPGs, and we started less than 2 weeks after release. We pretty much steamrolled dungeons and leveling was a breeze overall. Things were more time consuming, but that was about it. Nowadays people are even more knowledgeable than my group was back then, especially on the beta where you don't even have the occasional Casual Joe slip into your group, pulling extra packs left and right, and making shit seem harder. If this seems strange to you, you probably were Casual Joe, fucking shit up, making everything seem harder and that's why your memory of classic difficulty is so inflated.

[Usernameforforums]

In other news classic WoW was actually easy and it was just the players that where bad at the time.

Friendly reminder that when WoW originally launched it was actually the most casual and easy MMO on the market and that's how it gained mass appeal and separated itself from the pack in the first place.

It's almost like people have been telling you for years there was nothing hard about it, it just lacked QoL features that would be added later. Classic was easier then retail currently is(and probably every xpac for that matter), it just didn't respect your time at all.

In other words “you think you do, but you don’t”

[Hyral]

Which dungeons? Scholo, BRD, UBRS? Or do you mean RFC and DM*? We need some context here.

As for the people saying it was never hard. Yeah, that could apply to the entire game or even to the entire MMO genre. Everything in this genre is doable if you use your abilities and pay attention to the content. I'd argue difficulty in this genre is measure by requiring you to do just that. As long as everyone was actually getting involved with the run everything should go smoothly. That's something that doesn't exist in current WoW, you can just do content besides the top end completely absentmindedly.


*To the people getting triggered DM means deadmines unless you specify a wing : )

[Synros]

It's almost like it's a fucking BETA, and the number aren't properly tuned yet.......


HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

[Elkfingers]

what about people who had no problem raiding highest difficulties in past but simply cba anymore because how many years doing hardmodes can be fun ?

because i know fuckton of people like this



and regarding vanilla - if you played back then you would know how ridiculed WoW was exackly because of how easy it was compared to Everquest or Ultima Online

Maybe so, but I also played Everquest 2 and that wasn't hard either by modern standards. Besides, WoW popularised the genre and most people weren't MMORPG veterans.

I'm really fine with people playing any difficulty. You do you hun, etc. My point is that being unable or unwilling to do content which nonetheless exists doesn't give a person an excuse to bitch about there being no content. What they really mean is that there isn't the specific content that they want. There's a difference.