So apparently sub is dead?

[shoegazing]

But the fix to this problem doesn't affect anyone. It solves my problem, but doesn't affect those who don't have this problem at all. It's a fix with only benefits.

I made a thread before, with an image to show my problem:



It SUCKS to have cheap shot on 7 etc. I desperatly want it on 3, but I must give room for Eviscerate there, since Dance is more important than stealth in the end

Image is from LEGION, spells etc might be changed now, but to illustrate a point.

This is the biggest non-issue I've ever heard of.

1. They are NEVER going to do what you want. You say it doesn't affect anyone else, they aren't going to see it that way. The change you are asking for does create more work and confusion for other players, particularly casuals and noobs, having to setup another bar for Dance, separately from the Stealth bar. Is that a problem for me personally? No, it won't affect me at all. I disable bar swapping entirely and have the same exact binds in all stances. However the designers are NEVER going to take your side on this issue and the reason is that they will consider it too convoluted and inaccessible (which makes it even funnier that you are framing your insane, incoherent noob bullshit around "making the class more accessible to people who only want to use 1-5").

2. In the time it took you to write one of your many useless posts in this thread you could have written a very simple stance macro that gives you the exact functionality you desire. Nobody here has any sympathy at all for you or your helplessness. Get good.

i don't play the rogue for control factor its just pointless to hold when you could be stabbing. when giving a choice always ambush and eviscerate.

Ladies and gentlemen, meet the target audience for Legion/BFA Subtlety Rogue.

[BobAwesome]

But the fix to this problem doesn't affect anyone. It solves my problem, but doesn't affect those who don't have this problem at all. It's a fix with only benefits.

I made a thread before, with an image to show my problem:



It SUCKS to have cheap shot on 7 etc. I desperatly want it on 3, but I must give room for Eviscerate there, since Dance is more important than stealth in the end

Image is from LEGION, spells etc might be changed now, but to illustrate a point.

What do you have bound to Shift+n? My Shift+n binds are 1-6, 1-Kick, 2-Kidney Shot, 3-Evis, 4-Nightblade, 5-Secret Tech/Marked For Death (depending on what's talented if any), 6-Shuriken Storm (Shift+6 tends to be the AoE button for every character and spec I play).

[Battlebeard]

What do you have bound to Shift+n? My Shift+n binds are 1-6, 1-Kick, 2-Kidney Shot, 3-Evis, 4-Nightblade, 5-Secret Tech/Marked For Death (depending on what's talented if any), 6-Shuriken Storm (Shift+6 tends to be the AoE button for every character and spec I play).

Shift N is far to much to the right. My thumb stretch to the V button. My most-right bind is shift-H, but thats something not so super important, like cannibalize or something, that you dont really do in the heat of the moment. Shift N is impossible for me.

- - - Updated - - -

This is the biggest non-issue I've ever heard of.

1. They are NEVER going to do what you want. You say it doesn't affect anyone else, they aren't going to see it that way. The change you are asking for does create more work and confusion for other players, particularly casuals and noobs, having to setup another bar for Dance, separately from the Stealth bar. Is that a problem for me personally? No, it won't affect me at all. I disable bar swapping entirely and have the same exact binds in all stances. However the designers are NEVER going to take your side on this issue and the reason is that they will consider it too convoluted and inaccessible (which makes it even funnier that you are framing your insane, incoherent noob bullshit around "making the class more accessible to people who only want to use 1-5").

2. In the time it took you to write one of your many useless posts in this thread you could have written a very simple stance macro that gives you the exact functionality you desire. Nobody here has any sympathy at all for you or your helplessness. Get good.



Ladies and gentlemen, meet the target audience for Legion/BFA Subtlety Rogue.

If you read what I written in this thread, I did at multiple occasions say that having the stealth bar and dance by the same by default should be in the game. So if you add something to stealth, you also get it in dance now. What I want is an OPTION to change them. Maybe press a little padlock symbol or something to unlock the ability to change the bars. That way, the noobs as you say, dont have to do anything, they dont HAVE to set up 2 bars. But if you want to, you CAN.

[shoegazing]

Shift N is far to much to the right. My thumb stretch to the V button. My most-right bind is shift-H, but thats something not so super important, like cannibalize or something, that you dont really do in the heat of the moment. Shift N is impossible for me.

He's referring to N as a variable that takes values 1-5, not the literal N key on your keyboard..... Of course it is pointless to try to help you, since you aren't looking for a solution.

If you read what I written in this thread, I did at multiple occasions say that having the stealth bar and dance by the same by default should be in the game. So if you add something to stealth, you also get it in dance now. What I want is an OPTION to change them. Maybe press a little padlock symbol or something to unlock the ability to change the bars. That way, the noobs as you say, dont have to do anything, they dont HAVE to set up 2 bars. But if you want to, you CAN.

They are not ever going to put in the effort to do this when you can already do it very easily with 1. addons, or 2. stance macros. The solutions to your so-called problem are there, you have nobody to blame but yourself for your own helplessness.

You are the only person in the world who wants this. Blizzard is not going to do it for you. You have a clear path to get it done, but instead you're here crying about it. I recommend you stop being so utterly helpless.

[Battlebeard]

He's referring to N as a variable that takes values 1-5, not the literal N key on your keyboard..... Of course it is pointless to try to help you, since you aren't looking for a solution.



They are not ever going to put in the effort to do this when you can already do it very easily with 1. addons, or 2. stance macros. The solutions to your so-called problem are there, you have nobody to blame but yourself for your own helplessness.

I have never met a more passively aggressive person in my life, what is it with you...

And WHY should a company reason like that, outsourcing solutions? "Our car doesn't come with breaks, you can just buy that at Bills Breaks"... Shouldn't Blizzard strive for a more complete game? I am not the only one with this problem, believe me, I had a good talk with some rogues this week, many agree, though, since they don't play sub much they don't care that much, but I want to play more sub, this simply prevent me.

And I AM looking for a solution not a quick fix. Stance macros etc is a temporary solution, that shouldn't be needed to enjoy a specc.

[ymirsson]

I have never met a more passively aggressive person in my life, what is it with you...

He lost the one thing he truly ever loved. His horse, Tyrone.

No wait, wrong script.

He can't adapt to spec changes and lingers in the past, hoping for some magic solution, antagonizing anyone who does not hold his exact opinion.

[shoegazing]

I have never met a more passively aggressive person in my life, what is it with you...

The only thing "passive" here is the fact that I am not allowed to say what I really think about your complete inability to help yourself, due to forum rules.

And WHY should a company reason like that, outsourcing solutions? "Our car doesn't come with breaks, you can just buy that at Bills Breaks"... Shouldn't Blizzard strive for a more complete game? I am not the only one with this problem, believe me, I had a good talk with some rogues this week, many agree, though, since they don't play sub much they don't care that much, but I want to play more sub, this simply prevent me.

The only one having this "problem" here is you.

And I AM looking for a solution not a quick fix. Stance macros etc is a temporary solution, that shouldn't be needed to enjoy a specc.

Congratulations, this is the worst excuse for your own complete helplessness that you have made so far.

Why don't you just admit that you don't know how to write the macro?

He lost the one thing he truly ever loved. His horse, Tyrone.

No wait, wrong script.

He can't adapt to spec changes and lingers in the past, hoping for some magic solution, antagonizing anyone who does not hold his exact opinion.

It has nothing to do with "adapting". I was hardstuck duelist before the redesign, I am still hardstuck duelist after the redesign. The problem is that the playstyle isn't fun.

[Jibbler]

1-5 aren't the only keys on your keyboard. I have everything around WASD bound to abilities. Classes should not be designed around only having 5 abilities. What "most people" do doesn't really matter, "most people" are terrible at the game.

[Battlebeard]

The only thing "passive" here is the fact that I am not allowed to say what I really think about your complete inability to help yourself, due to forum rules.



The only one having this "problem" here is you.



Congratulations, this is the worst excuse for your own complete helplessness that you have made so far.

Why don't you just admit that you don't know how to write the macro?



It has nothing to do with "adapting". I was hardstuck duelist before the redesign, I am still hardstuck duelist after the redesign. The problem is that the playstyle isn't fun.

I have no clue on how to write a macro, I never used macros in 15 years. But I can of course google it if I wanted to. But it's not a good solution. And you speak about help myself? I shouldn't HAVE to do that, Blizzard SHOULD make this change, cause it will improve the specc for everyone.

I am not the only one with this problem, maybe in this thread, but not out there.

[shoegazing]

I have no clue on how to write a macro, I never used macros in 15 years. But I can of course google it if I wanted to. But it's not a good solution. And you speak about help myself? I shouldn't HAVE to do that, Blizzard SHOULD make this change, cause it will improve the specc for everyone.

I am not the only one with this problem, maybe in this thread, but not out there.

How much experience do you have with software development? Do you have any idea at all how much development effort and QA effort can be required for something that imbecile users think is a "simple quality of life change"?

Have you really thought about the feasibility of your "opt-in" solution? You actually want them to implement some kind of toggle that enables a separate dance bar, but only for players who want it? This means they need to implement both features, as well as a toggle that allows you to "opt-in" to the feature that you want. OK, let's say they do all that effort for just you. "But it's not just me, there are other people who are going to want it as well!" OK, and are they going to be even aware that it exists? Where is the UI/UX team going to put this option so that it's transparent for those who want it, but doesn't add unnecessary clutter and confusion for those who don't? Do you expect the UI/UX team to be on-board with adding more interface bloat to the game for a feature that is going to be used only by a single digit % of Subtlety Rogue players, when Subtlety is only 1 out of 36 specs in the game? Do you really expect them to sign off on that?

At the end of the day, you have absolutely no idea at all what you are talking about. Your ask is completely unrealistic. It's never going to be worth it to Blizzard to implement this feature, never under any circumstances will a cost-benefit analysis lead them to say "this is something we should do." Never going to happen. Anyone who really wants this behavior is able to achieve it already via simple macros or using Bartender addon. Anyone except for you that is, because you are apparently completely helpless and unwilling to do any work at all.

This is the entire purpose that addons and macros exist btw. So that special snowflakes who really want something different can opt-in to it, without cluttering the experience at all for anybody else. The opt-in feature you desire already exists, it's called stance macros and/or bartender. This is as good as you are ever going to get. And to be honest, with a minimum amount of effort, it will work perfectly for what you are trying to do. Therefore what you are asking for is a complete and utter waste of development resources, which is never, ever, ever going to happen, not under any circumstances, not ever.

[Naiattavain]

its my birthday! ♫♫♫♪ loved seeing that ship light up the fireworks on thor Ragnarok

- - - Updated - - -

How much experience do you have with software development? Do you have any idea at all how much development effort and QA effort can be required for something that imbecile users think is a "simple quality of life change"?

Have you really thought about the feasibility of your "opt-in" solution? You actually want them to implement some kind of toggle that enables a separate dance bar, but only for players who want it? This means they need to implement both features, as well as a toggle that allows you to "opt-in" to the feature that you want. OK, let's say they do all that effort for just you. "But it's not just me, there are other people who are going to want it as well!" OK, and are they going to be even aware that it exists? Where is the UX team going to put this option so that it's transparent for those who want it, but doesn't add unnecessary clutter and confusion for those who don't?

At the end of the day, you have absolutely no idea at all what you are talking about. Your ask is completely unrealistic. It's never going to be worth it to Blizzard to implement this feature, never under any circumstances will a cost-benefit analysis lead them to say "this is something we should do." Never going to happen. Anyone who really wants this behavior is able to achieve it already via simple macros or using Bartender addon. Anyone except for you that is, because you are apparently completely helpless and unwilling to do any work at all.

This is the entire purpose that addons and macros exist btw. So that special snowflakes who really want something different can opt-in to it, without cluttering the experience at all for anybody else. The opt-in feature you desire already exists, it's called stance macros and/or bartender. This is as good as you are ever going to get. And to be honest, with a minimum amount of effort, it will work perfectly for what you are trying to do. Therefore what you are asking for is a complete and utter waste of development resources, which is never, ever, ever going to happen, not under any circumstances, not ever.

yea there gotta be some kind of end goal we are working towards to make all the work worthwhile.

[ymirsson]

Therefore what you are asking for is a complete and utter waste of development resources, which is never, ever, ever going to happen, not under any circumstances, not ever.

You're talking about that Sub re-redesign?

[shoegazing]

You're talking about that Sub re-redesign?

You mean the one they did between WoD and Legion, where they took a legendary and iconic PvP spec, tried to make it more appealing to PvE players, and ended up with a spec which is appealing to neither PvE nor PvP players? That utter failure of a redesign, that ridiculous waste of development resources which resulted in a spec that almost nobody is playing?

I am expecting them to clean up that absolute mess. Eventually, in a future expansion, when they are committing resources to making another large pass at class design.

[ymirsson]

You mean the one they did between WoD and Legion, where they took a legendary and iconic PvP spec, tried to make it more appealing to PvE players, and ended up with a spec which is appealing to neither PvE nor PvP players? That utter failure of a redesign, that ridiculous waste of development resources which resulted in a spec that almost nobody is playing?

I am expecting them to clean up that absolute mess. Eventually, in a future expansion, when they are committing resources to making another large pass at class design.

This is why i love discussions with you, your level headed objective analysis, followed by strict logical conclusions, rock solid.

[shoegazing]

This is why i love discussions with you, your level headed objective analysis, followed by strict logical conclusions, rock solid.

I've never expected a mid-expansion rework, I've been playing the long game since the beginning.

The real reason for all the Legion class redesigns was the introduction of the Artifact system and PvP talent systems, which made it necessary to redesign each spec completely. Eventually there will be another similar systems change which requires a sweeping change of classes. That will be the best opportunity to get meaningful, positive changes for the class that bring back some semblance of Rogue gameplay instead of this pruned, Fisher-Price nu-Rogue garbage.

And if not then, there's always the option to play a real Rogue again in classic, as well as the possibility that classic can lead to TBC or WotLK servers.

[ymirsson]

Does your therapist know that you stole his PC passwords again?

[shoegazing]

Does your therapist know that you stole his PC passwords again?

Is there a point to this off-topic concern trolling and derailment? You're still upset about something I said to you two or three years ago, I suppose? I'm going to get something to eat. Have a nice day, Ymirsson.

[ymirsson]

Is there a point to this off-topic concern trolling and derailment?

I'm just amused about this futile crusade of yours, your narrow minded dismissal of anyone not playing at your supposedly elite level and your almost total failure in regards to being a humane human being in the face of overwhelming opposition.
If Blizzard ever decides to redesign Sub, which i doubt, and they do integrate your vision or parts thereof, which i doubt, i would dying to know if your campaign was any factor.
Until then, have a nice day.

[Lodravel]

I'm just amused about this futile crusade of yours, your narrow minded dismissal of anyone not playing at your supposedly elite level and your almost total failure in regards to being a humane human being in the face of overwhelming opposition.
If Blizzard ever decides to redesign Sub, which i doubt, and they do integrate your vision or parts thereof, which i doubt, i would dying to know if your campaign was any factor.
Until then, have a nice day.

Classes change with each expansion. Each to a varying extent, but that's how it always was. If you then call the consequent changes to subtlety a redesign or not is mostly a formality.

It's very defeatist to label player feedback as futile. Blizzard doesn't acknowledge the largest wealth of criticism they sift through, but they do not ignore half as much as a cynical mind may perceive.
A loud voice can't hurt. It's not about simple wish fulfilment after all, but about adding your little dot to the whole and encouraging others to do so as well, so they can connect them into a picture that's more to your liking.

As for Battlebeard's issue, agree or not, the implementation is unrealistic. Separate Shoegazing's indignation from the arguments he has laid out and you'll have to agree, separating the stealth from the SD bar is impractical from a developer's point of view.

[Battlebeard]

How much experience do you have with software development? Do you have any idea at all how much development effort and QA effort can be required for something that imbecile users think is a "simple quality of life change"?

Have you really thought about the feasibility of your "opt-in" solution? You actually want them to implement some kind of toggle that enables a separate dance bar, but only for players who want it? This means they need to implement both features, as well as a toggle that allows you to "opt-in" to the feature that you want. OK, let's say they do all that effort for just you. "But it's not just me, there are other people who are going to want it as well!" OK, and are they going to be even aware that it exists? Where is the UI/UX team going to put this option so that it's transparent for those who want it, but doesn't add unnecessary clutter and confusion for those who don't? Do you expect the UI/UX team to be on-board with adding more interface bloat to the game for a feature that is going to be used only by a single digit % of Subtlety Rogue players, when Subtlety is only 1 out of 36 specs in the game? Do you really expect them to sign off on that?

At the end of the day, you have absolutely no idea at all what you are talking about. Your ask is completely unrealistic. It's never going to be worth it to Blizzard to implement this feature, never under any circumstances will a cost-benefit analysis lead them to say "this is something we should do." Never going to happen. Anyone who really wants this behavior is able to achieve it already via simple macros or using Bartender addon. Anyone except for you that is, because you are apparently completely helpless and unwilling to do any work at all.

This is the entire purpose that addons and macros exist btw. So that special snowflakes who really want something different can opt-in to it, without cluttering the experience at all for anybody else. The opt-in feature you desire already exists, it's called stance macros and/or bartender. This is as good as you are ever going to get. And to be honest, with a minimum amount of effort, it will work perfectly for what you are trying to do. Therefore what you are asking for is a complete and utter waste of development resources, which is never, ever, ever going to happen, not under any circumstances, not ever.

I do not know much myself about software development, but I did have a very interesting discussion with a programmer friend. I take his word for it, that it's a very little code required to separate those bars.

But point is, this should still be implemented since it makes Subtlety more accessible and easier to play. Every specc should be easy to pick up and to play smoothly, and sub would still have a high skill cap. Sub is one of 36 speccs and there are other speccs with problems too. Shouldn't blizzard strive to perfect them all?

macros and addons are a thing, but personally, I always hated both. I wish with all my heart the option to make macros would be removed and all addons banned from use. And instead, Blizzard try to integrate alot of what these addons are in the game. Face it, almost everyone use DBM, some damage meter addons, coordinate addons etc etc. WHY not integrate all those addons in the game? Blizzard should strive to do it all and not rely on third party developers.

But since Blizzard are lazy and cheap, they have addons and macros as a solution instead of fixing it themselves. Sadly. I just dream of a Blizzard that does it all themselves!