Can we get one thing straight about the introduction of pathfinder?

[Fabinas]

The miscommunication though made everyone, including the developers more confused as there were days when directly conflicting things were coming out of various accounts. GC was gone at that point and a new point person had yet to emerge so it was all of them sort of firing stuff off at random. A lot of people just wanted an answer one way or the other. In some respects it's arguable that the Pathfinder compromise was worse than just pulling flying entirely and sticking with it. The break would have been cleaner. A good compromise doesn't make anyone happy. Devs still have to deal with their creaky old 3D engine and a few players still think they can crack this. I don't have much of an opinion either way except to note the phenomenal dissonance about announcing the removal of flight from the game while Warlords had a flying mount as part of its reward for buying a CE. Just bad business all the way.

Entering the tinfoil hat area, i do remember the Iron Rylak mount (not the in-game name, can't remember it) being sold during MoP through the store, without any announcement whatsoever, while clearly being a WoD inspired Mount with a flying bird design. As a creature, it looked awkward for walking or running (especially with those side mounted rockets!!).

The CE mount however, having a stocky bird build, was more appropriate for being used equally as a ground or a flying mount. My assertion/assumption/tinfoil hat theory was that the CE mount was destined to be the Iron Rylak one, but after the decision to initially limit flying for WoD, they realised they couldn't have a selling point in a mount clearly designed for flight. Hence, they suddenly started selling the already made mount (i still remember some people thinking it was a store bug) and changed the CE mount to something more approriate for ground runs.

[irvaa]

You'll note that WoD was also the first time they changed up the way flight worked, however.

That isn't completely true.

TBC had it as a max level reward that you needed a ton of gold to access. 5,000 gold was a lot back in the day. Still most of outland was designed for land mounts with some secret high level areas that required flight.
-Flight also DID get complained about... since there was three flight only dungeons. A popular strategy for guilds early in TBC was to funnel money into a Warlock + the raid leader. So they could summon non-flight people up to those dungeons.

WotLK blocked flight for most of the leveling experience as well (7 out of 10 levels is most of the leveling experience).

Cata changed it so that you could fly at the start of the expansion. It got complained about slightly but it was mostly the zones with how linear they were that got blasted.

MoP went back to the TBC way and blocked flight till max level. It was easier to design quests they said in a way that guided the player well if they did not have to factor in flight.


While not most of the expansion, 3 out of 4 of those expansions did gatekeep flight for either all or most of the leveling experience.

[SirCowdog]

Isn't Highmountain basically "like" Stormpeaks, only adapted for no-flying? The zone is basically one entire, huge mountain. A zone like that pre-WoD (i.e. pre-Pathfinder) would be inaccessible without a flying mount.

Yeah, pretty much.

The thing is that Highmountain with Pathfinder unlocked is actually not that bad. Some parts are indoor, other parts are outdoor. Had Blizzard took a little bit of effort to make the outdoor parts take flying into account, like they did with stormpeaks, it would have been a pretty good compromise between flying and no-flying. Basically a slightly smaller Stormpeaks.

Would that REALLY have been so bad?

[Ielenia]

Yeah, pretty much.

The thing is that Highmountain with Pathfinder unlocked is actually not that bad. Some parts are indoor, other parts are outdoor. Had Blizzard took a little bit of effort to make the outdoor parts take flying into account, like they did with stormpeaks, it would have been a pretty good compromise between flying and no-flying. Basically a slightly smaller Stormpeaks.

Would that REALLY have been so bad?

TBH I don't really care. I like how Pathfinder works right now. I mean, I got part 1 without even trying. I.e. just by playing the game. I was even surprised when I got the achievement as I wasn't expecting it.

So I expect part 2 will be the same.

[SirCowdog]

TBH I don't really care. I like how Pathfinder works right now. I mean, I got part 1 without even trying. I.e. just by playing the game. I was even surprised when I got the achievement as I wasn't expecting it.

So I expect part 2 will be the same.

I don't think anyone has much of a complaint about the amount of work needed. It's the completely unnecessary delay between parts 1 and 2 that's an issue.

[Lei]

You're completely missing the point of Ion's statement, the discussion wasn't about how topography had changed through the course of the expansions. All expansions feature situations where you can see something in the distance and have to figure out a way to get to it. It could be areas across a chasm where you need to find a bridge in STV, it could be a Biodome somewhere in the shattered landmass of Netherstorm, it could be Valkyr Crpyts on a moutainside in Howling Fjord or a shattered world tree in Grizzly Hills.

I'm not missing the point. I'm saying how BECAUSE of how the map layout has changed, you CAN NOT compare them equally. Which he tried. Apples to oranges.
And we are talking about max level flying, by that time you probably explored most of the map while you were questing (quests drag you through all over the zone, UNLIKE in vanilla, when there were not enough quests to begin with). I don't mind having to do all the quests in the area + full exploration to unlock flying. But the "deal" we have is one sided. Only the devs benefit from it.

The game is also littered with quests where you only need certain mobs in an area, or where certain mobs or activities will help you complete the quest quicker, and areas like that encourage you to examine your surroundings and decide whether you want to dodge certain enemies, snipe occasional problem ones, charge through and just annihilate everything or use class abilities to avoid confrontations. That's an aspect of gameplay that is lost with flying because the game encourages you to bunny-hop between them.

Again, quests (leveling quests) or world quests? World quests are nobrainer go in, zerg, whistle out. Regular quests do have some depth into them, but we are talking about flying here which is not a leveling stuff.

I'd say that quest probably isn't typical, try Googling "BfA mob density" and see how many people are struggling getting around because they find there are too many mobs to fight or avoid.

That wq is very typical. Basically ALL yo, kill this "rare" wquest is similar. You rush in, zerg it down, whistle out. Or maybe what you mean by not typical is that the other rares are placed where there are absolutely no mobs around? The very way world quests were set up promotes fast in fast out type of gameplay. You typically don't fight much with non-objective mobs. Maybe in mines and caves. But you can't fly in caves so that's not our topic here. Mob density only plays part while you're leveling up. WQs were designed differently. Also, if there is one or two shitty inconvenient wq (the beehive one in drustvar), you just skip it. For 75 rep, they can keep it. There are 222342424 other wqs, that are easier to deal with, closer to a flight path...

[cparle87]

Still not getting it... you are one hopeless case

This is what I was originally replying to:
"They intended to scrap flying entirely with WoD moving forward by completely breaking their own words that it would be added later.
However a huge backlash occurring when this was obvious made them do a 180 and introduce it along with pathfinder after all."

How jaded can a player base be when they demand something be changed for them, and then turn around and make getting it sound like Blizzard just did a bad thing?

Players: Damnit Blizz, we hate this change, change it back.
Blizzard: Ok.
Player: Damn, look at shitty Blizz flip-flopping all over the place.
Blizzard: ...

[SirCowdog]

This is what I was originally replying to:
"They intended to scrap flying entirely with WoD moving forward by completely breaking their own words that it would be added later.
However a huge backlash occurring when this was obvious made them do a 180 and introduce it along with pathfinder after all."

How jaded can a player base be when they demand something be changed for them, and then turn around and make getting it sound like Blizzard just did a bad thing?

Players: Damnit Blizz, we hate this change, change it back.
Blizzard: Ok.
Player: Damn, look at shitty Blizz flip-flopping all over the place.
Blizzard: ...

That's a disingenuous argument.

The reason why players are angry about getting flight back is because the manner and form in which they're getting it back isn't the same. Previous to WoD, flight was either obtained near level cap for gold, or obtained right away, with a handful of no-flying islands released later in each expansion(Firelands, TI, Isle of Thunder, IQD, etc...).

Pathfinder turns that on its head, and robs flight of much of its previous value. Whereas before players got to use flight as a reward for reaching level cap, and use it for most of the open world while the content was relatively current, Pathfinder withholds flight long past level cap and for months or even a full year past where being grounded stops making sense and stops being of value.

This isn't a case of players being fickle, as you have depicted. It's a case of players being reasonably upset with a raw deal and poor design choices.

Much like the rest of BfA, players have had something taken away from them then returned in a lesser form, then are being told both by Blizzard and their super_fans to be happy about it.

[rrayy]

but... but... but... we actually see their decisions in game. for the last 5+ years. How's that a "baseless declaration"? (i know you're a well known Blizz apologist, who never discusses anything, just vaguely refutes, so, please, go on. You'll win the internetz with me)

Wrong. You see what you want to see. So, since you have an anti-Blizz agenda, what you see has to fit that. There is ZERO eviednce to back any of your accusations. Your interpretation does not = proof.

- - - Updated - - -

That isn't completely true.

TBC had it as a max level reward that you needed a ton of gold to access. 5,000 gold was a lot back in the day. Still most of outland was designed for land mounts with some secret high level areas that required flight.

False. 5,000 gold was for fast flying. There was regular flying, which was much slower, that you could get for 800g.

[cparle87]

That's a disingenuous argument.

The reason why players are angry about getting flight back is because the manner and form in which they're getting it back isn't the same. Previous to WoD, flight was either obtained near level cap for gold, or obtained right away, with a handful of no-flying islands released later in each expansion(Firelands, TI, Isle of Thunder, IQD, etc...).

Pathfinder turns that on its head, and robs flight of much of its previous value. Whereas before players got to use flight as a reward for reaching level cap, and use it for most of the open world while the content was relatively current, Pathfinder withholds flight long past level cap and for months or even a full year past where being grounded stops making sense and stops being of value.

This isn't a case of players being fickle, as you have depicted. It's a case of players being reasonably upset with a raw deal and poor design choices.

Much like the rest of BfA, players have had something taken away from them then returned in a lesser form, then are being told both by Blizzard and their super_fans to be happy about it.

You mean to tell me that not only are players mad that Blizzard gave them back something they wanted back, therefore listening to feedback, but the players are mad because they didn't get it back exactly the way they wanted it. In a way that's even worse. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Blizzard can't win.

Wasn't there a dev interview back in BC that went to the tune of "we could hand out free magic hats that gave everyone their perfect gaming experience, and we'd still get complaints about the color of the hat?" Boy was he prophetic.

Also, you might want to change your sig. It's disingenuous. It should be:
"In case it wasn't clear, I'm a fan of what Blizzard never was, can't be, and can never be, because no one will ever be able to meet millions of people's unrealistic expectations."

[SirCowdog]

You mean to tell me that not only are players mad that Blizzard gave them back something they wanted back, therefore listening to feedback, but the players are mad because they didn't get it back exactly the way they wanted it. In a way that's even worse. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Blizzard can't win.

The reason you don't get it is because you're not thinking it through. You're oversimplifying and misinterpreting.

Pathfinder is not what players asked for. Gold for flying at level cap was asked for. An epic quest line to unlock flight was asked for. Zone by zone unlocks were asked for.

But literally no one asked for a 9+ month delay after doing the work. Players also never asked for no-fly zones after finishing the unlock.

Blizzard can't win because they're doing things players don't want. Even in their own words, with their own data, half the players didn't like No-Flying. And that was before the backlash of the announcement to get rid of flying permanently. I can't imagine approval for the idea increased during that time.

And then in Legion blizzard admitted to screwing up the timing of Pathfinder with Argus. And here we are again in BfA having to wait the same amount of time, with tje same grumbling about No-Flying overstaying its welcome.

Do you know how Blizzard wins? By making Pathfinder reasonable. By making zones that aren't so easily harmed by flying. By giving players what they actually want instead of some halfassed ripoff version of it with strings attached.

[tripleh]

Pathfinder is just the devs way to retailiate at the playerbase that wanted flying. Because when they first announced no flying in wod. It causes a massive enough unsubscibe wave that prompted a customer service window to pop up asking players why they were leaving. Then the devs had to keep subs up or look bad to the executives. Because I am sure it someones bright idea (probably Ions) that taking flight away wouldn't affect players subscriptions. They had to act fast before shareholders and executives would be down there throats on the subs declining so rapidly. With pathfinder they try to milk as much from the players by adding a part two months later. At this current point its about
9 months past launch. Which seems alot further then that of legions. I am just hoping that activision fires the anti flight devs next round of layoffs. The game can do better without them.

[FelPlague]

They are literally saying reasons why they wanted to remove flying in that interview. But those reasons are false. Not true. Those reasons didn't hold up back then and much less now, 2 expacs later. They go against those "reasons"twice as much with other actions.

If I'm telling you I'm a vegan and friend of the animals so I don't eat cute bunnies and cows and etc.

And then you catch me using products that test on animals (where they suffer more), you find animal fur coat in my closet, I'm throwing away plastic bags left right and center... Then am I the friend of the animals? Seriously now.

welcome to 90% of vegans and vegetarians "i dont eat animal product" eats anything with sugar or gellatine in it. "oh well its only abit of bone char.... oh its only abit of pig skin/bone/tendion/hooves"

bad example m8

[Relapses]

Pathfinder is just the devs way to retailiate at the playerbase that wanted flying. Because when they first announced no flying in wod. It causes a massive enough unsubscibe wave that prompted a customer service window to pop up asking players why they were leaving. Then the devs had to keep subs up or look bad to the executives. Because I am sure it someones bright idea (probably Ions) that taking flight away wouldn't affect players subscriptions. They had to act fast before shareholders and executives would be down there throats on the subs declining so rapidly. With pathfinder they try to milk as much from the players by adding a part two months later. At this current point its about
9 months past launch. Which seems alot further then that of legions. I am just hoping that activision fires the anti flight devs next round of layoffs. The game can do better without them.

Literally every single fucking thing about this post is wrong.

Bravo, dude. Bravo.

[SirCowdog]

welcome to 90% of vegans and vegetarians "i dont eat animal product" eats anything with sugar or gellatine in it. "oh well its only abit of bone char.... oh its only abit of pig skin/bone/tendion/hooves"

bad example m8

The point Lei is making is that you need to look at what they're doing, not what they're saying.

[Wraethion]

In a nice world we would have a multi-part Pathfinder achievement for Flying that can be completed by just simply playing the game. The multi-part being for whatever new zone like Tanaan Jungle or Nazjatar. The requirement list will be longer, but doable.

[tripleh]

Literally every single fucking thing about this post is wrong.

Bravo, dude. Bravo.

Why bless your heart.

[Freaking Frumpy Frak]

You're effectively correct, OP, with a little deductive reasoning, it's pretty obvious that Blizzard would love to remove flying from the game due to the extra work it necessitates but because you were mean to my beloved Activision Blizzard, I'm going to act like you're wrong.

[cparle87]

The reason you don't get it is because you're not thinking it through. You're oversimplifying and misinterpreting.

Pathfinder is not what players asked for. Gold for flying at level cap was asked for. An epic quest line to unlock flight was asked for. Zone by zone unlocks were asked for.

But literally no one asked for a 9+ month delay after doing the work. Players also never asked for no-fly zones after finishing the unlock.

Blizzard can't win because they're doing things players don't want. Even in their own words, with their own data, half the players didn't like No-Flying. And that was before the backlash of the announcement to get rid of flying permanently. I can't imagine approval for the idea increased during that time.

And then in Legion blizzard admitted to screwing up the timing of Pathfinder with Argus. And here we are again in BfA having to wait the same amount of time, with tje same grumbling about No-Flying overstaying its welcome.

Do you know how Blizzard wins? By making Pathfinder reasonable. By making zones that aren't so easily harmed by flying. By giving players what they actually want instead of some halfassed ripoff version of it with strings attached.

You basically just spent all that repeating exactly what I said. They got what they wanted, but not the way they wanted it, so they're still mad. How about they grow the fuck up already and realize the world isn't going to tailor itself to them?

I get that you're one of the top Blizz-bashers on these forums, but even you have to admit being mad for getting what you want because you have to earn it is sad. I had a guildie just today whine about the "grind" to get zandalari unlocked right before gushing about how much he was looking forward to classic and I boggled at the mental dissonance.

[tmamass]

No one complained about flight in TBC.
No one complained about flight in WotLK.
No one complained about flight in Cataclysm.
No one complained about flight in MoP.
In WoD, suddenly, flight was a problem..

Flight was never the problem: WoD was..

Amen to this. the second problem is that the devs are to bad in making quests/world with flying in mind....thus pathfinder to stretch the small amount of content over a maximum of time.