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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    . They got what they wanted,
    They didn't. Which is the point you're either not getting, or that you're purposefully ignoring.

    Sigh...let me approach this from another angle. Why are you defending Pathfinder in its current form? What good comes out of the excessive time-gate? And for the love of god please don't just use the Blizzard response. We all know its bullshit. It doesn't take players 9 months to experience the content from the ground.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-05-21 at 12:01 PM.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Literally every single fucking thing about this post is wrong.

    Bravo, dude. Bravo.
    Except that most of it is actualy right and there are proofs that it is.
    https://inanage.com/2015/06/11/a-flight-far-enough/

    Where is your proof that its wrong? stop making a fool of yourself.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Entirely new way for WoW. It wasn't a new concept for MMORPGs. GW2 had been doing it for awhile. But I take your meaning. However, "here's an area, find out what works" amounted to two things: Kill anything and everything, and click stuff. I agree that it was slightly better than traditional Daily Quests, but it was also just taking existing daily quests objectives and throwing everything in every quest. In that way it was actually un-creative.
    The odds of WoW completely changing so it no longer revolves around clicking stuff and killing stuff is vanishingly small. You might as well complain that you always shoot things in FPS games.

    Except that, like Apexis, you're just taking everything from every daily quest and throwing it all in the pot. In a lot of ways you ARE just doing the same thing every day, especially since the pool of WQs is very small, resulting in seeing the same things over and over. Added to the complete lack of context(which daily quests at least had some amount of) it definitely creates that feeling of chores.
    When I say "the exact same thing" I mean the things you do each day are exactly the same. In WotLK, Cata and MoP you would fly to the same point, drop on the same mobs and complete the same objectives the same way. With world quests first you check what the emissary is, different emissary quests will encourage you to quest in different zones. Then you check which quests are available, the ones you choose to do will be based on how much you like that particular quest, which rewards it offers and how convenient it is to get to this may change with mood. You may or may not do more than just the emissary quest depending on rewards or mood.[/quote]

    The point you're attempting to avoid is that the game can still be WoW, but with improvements. BfA has been a regression almost across the board. It didn't take the game forward at all. We're now almost a year in and only MAYBE getting back to the point where Legion was. Why do you find that acceptable?
    Except the improvements you want are based around completely different gameplay (no killing or clicking things for quests) and you also want to introduce some sort of flying mechanic despite the vast majority of the game being to do with ground playing. Once you start asking for fundamental changes like that you may as well be playing a different game altogether.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    They didn't. Which is the point you're either not getting, or that you're purposefully ignoring.

    Sigh...let me approach this from another angle. Why are you defending Pathfinder in its current form? What good comes out of the excessive time-gate? And for the love of god please don't just use the Blizzard response. We all know its bullshit. It doesn't take players 9 months to experience the content from the ground.
    You know the reasons, current endgame open-world content is balanced and paced around players tackling it from the ground, they're also keeping the option open to add content to the same landmass that will also be designed from a non-flying perspective. When the next patch comes in there will be a new batch of content and, if things are the same as previous expansions, this will be designed to be started from the ground with some players finishing it while flying. I will say that if they don't add anything new to Zandalar and Kul'Tiras they might as well have introduced Pathfinder Part 2 to 8.1 and have a Part 3 for the next patch, but outside these little bubbles it's hardly a big deal. Most players are either happy to get on with it or to wait for the full thing to be released and play then.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Zalamander View Post
    Except that most of it is actualy right and there are proofs that it is.
    https://inanage.com/2015/06/11/a-flight-far-enough/

    Where is your proof that its wrong? stop making a fool of yourself.
    Are you mental? At no point was there anything even remotely close to 'proof' in that blog post. The guy literally implied that millions of people unsubbed because of flight. If you actually think flying in WoW was that important I have some beachfront property in Wyoming you might be interested in.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    This is what I was originally replying to:
    "They intended to scrap flying entirely with WoD moving forward by completely breaking their own words that it would be added later.
    However a huge backlash occurring when this was obvious made them do a 180 and introduce it along with pathfinder after all."

    How jaded can a player base be when they demand something be changed for them, and then turn around and make getting it sound like Blizzard just did a bad thing?

    Players: Damnit Blizz, we hate this change, change it back.
    Blizzard: Ok.
    Player: Damn, look at shitty Blizz flip-flopping all over the place.
    Blizzard: ...
    You forgot the part where WoD was sold with flying to be added later.

    THEN Blizzard flipped by announcing - months into the xpac -they changed their minds. And it's not even as if they made the announcement on the forums. No! Player had got wind of this from the interview Ion had with Polygon. So players got the information not from the devs, but a third party website. I mean, this alone is fucked up enough.

    Not to mention the reasoning given was completely bonkers, an absolute joke. plus nobody asked for this shit. In addition, there were at the very same time, flying mounts for sale in the online shop. Seriously? Also, with the WoD prepatch they put the WoD themed Enchanted Fey Dragon and Iron Skyreaver mounts into the store, which, by their logic, you could then not actually fully use in current content... LIKE what the actual fuck.

    and

    THEN Blizzard flopped. In the worst possible manner someone could. Instead of just straight admitting that they made a misjudgement and apologize for all the disdraught they caused their loyal fans with their poor decision (because this would have been the proper way to do this AND keep the respect of the players) AND leave it the way it was. No, they came up with this pathfinder bullshit. Just out of pure spite and pride. All this "flying will make players skip content" is a complete BS argument, because players were used to level grounded in MoP (Cata being the exception), and nobody was screaming for a change. Also, nobody was complaining about the no fly zones in MoP afaik.
    Last edited by Eggroll; 2019-05-21 at 07:14 PM.


  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    They didn't. Which is the point you're either not getting, or that you're purposefully ignoring.

    Sigh...let me approach this from another angle. Why are you defending Pathfinder in its current form? What good comes out of the excessive time-gate? And for the love of god please don't just use the Blizzard response. We all know its bullshit. It doesn't take players 9 months to experience the content from the ground.
    Because I like wpvp and actually having to be in the world instead of mount, fly up, hit auto run, and alt tab? Few days ago I was helping a guildie level in Nazmir. We were done there and there was a quest right on the other side in Zuldazar. He went to use his flight master whistle, take a flight path, and then ran for the spot. Where I just ran for it and got there first. I asked him why he took the long way, and he responded he didn't know there were any roads to get back up to Zuldazar since he only ever used flight paths to get here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    You forgot the part where WoD was sold with flying to be added later.

    THEN Blizzard flipped by announcing - months into the xpac -they changed their minds. And it's not even as if they made the announcement on the forums. No! Player had got wind of this from the interview Ion had with Polygon. So players got the information not from the devs, but a third party website. I mean, this alone is fucked up enough.

    Not to mention the reasoning given was completely bonkers, an absolute joke. plus nobody asked for this shit. In addition, there were at the very same time, flying mounts for sale in the online shop. Seriously? Also, with the WoD prepatch they put the WoD themed Enchanted Fey Dragon and Iron Skyreaver mounts into the store, which, by their logic, you could then not actually fully use in current content... LIKE what the actual fuck.

    and

    THEN Blizzard flopped. In the worst possible manner someone could. Instead of just straight admitting that they made a misjudgement and apologize for all the disdraught they caused their loyal fans with their poor decision (because this would have been the proper way to do this AND keep the respect of the players) AND leave it the way it was. No, they came up with this pathfinder bullshit. Just out of pure spite and pride. All this "flying will make players skip content" is a complete BS argument, because players were used to level grounded in MoP (Cata being the exception), and nobody was screaming for a change. Also, nobody was complaining about the no fly zones in MoP afaik.
    WoD was sold with flying to be added later... and we got flying later. What's the problem?

    We found out what was going on in an interview. What's the problem?

    Nobody asked for this. Cited for opinion. Don't try to pass off what you don't want for "nobody wanted."

    Are you one of those guys screaming about a class action lawsuit for fraudulent advertising because a reward for an xpac couldn't be used to its fullest right away in that xpac's content?

    Nice headcanon, btw. Everything in that entire last paragraph is you going "what is the worst possible way Blizzard could do this. Ok, I've convinced myself that's how reality was, even though there's no evidence." Do you have anything that isn't your own opinion you're trying to pass off as the player base's will? You're so unbelievably biased. You say they made a misjudgement. You claim they need to apologize to us for making said misjudgement. You claim they did it out of spite and pride. You claim their argument for delaying flying was bad. Also, you're wrong. Every expansion besides Cata had you level up grounded.

  7. #287
    I can't find the article anymore but a higher up from Blizzard gave an interview about the process leading up to the decision to remove flying. He said they had been debating it for a long time and the main reason the designers wanted to take flying out is because they were pissed flying mounts allowed people to skip over all of the content they had put into the game. He also said the game content they designed was really fun and believed a lot of players who were bored with WoW would be reinvigorated if they'd just experience it. That's why the pathfinder achievement is a completionist achievement. I'm sure every department had its reasons for wanting to take flight out of the game but this interview had the biggest effect on me. I know what I think is fun and I didn't like knowing I was losing flying, something I enjoyed, to force me into content I had already rejected. If it was really that big a deal for them they should have worked to create better content which would attract my interest all on its own.

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sethus View Post
    Flying is extremely detrimental to the game and crybabies just want to instantly move from point A to point B with no effort and time invested. If anything, flying should be completely removed from current content, and flight points should be reduced to 1-2 per zone in order to facilitate more player encounters and interaction.
    Nah my dude, the only form of travel should be walking, and there should be three times as many mobs and environmental hazards like traps and hidden pitfalls all over the place. Teleporting and taking portals will also immediately throw you into a dungeon without your gear, half-way through.

  9. #289
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    Questing only Works without flying. But after you've gone and done, faster travel is kinda mandatory a this point. I get not enabling it for new zones though.

    However i feel Final Fantasy 14 handles this much better, essentialy you collect "attunements with the winds" that are scattered accross the zone and others that are unlocked via quest. You can never get flying if you dont complete the zone and explore specific "hard to get" áreas.

  10. #290
    Ah so this is another "I'm not moaning about Pathfinder BUT..." thread. I mean, you say it's not, but your entire argument is that it was some hack that was forced on us because Blizzard couldn't bother spending the resources to test the (apparently) proper solution properly.

    People that moan about no-flying all the time or say they won't subsrcibe without it are, to me, one of the weirdest of the small niches around here. The world is objectively more absorbing, atmospheric, interactive and "dangerous" from the ground when you're questing. +With shorter hearths and whistles the world is still fast to navigate.

    Flying can have it's perks, it's super convenient, you avoid having to interact with anyone, and the scenery can have its own unique view from the sky - But lets not pretend people don't just fly straight quest point to quest point entirely ignoring the rest of the world around them. Even when questing to level in the old zones it's the same - flying divorces you from the world entirely.
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  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    The odds of WoW completely changing so it no longer revolves around clicking stuff and killing stuff is vanishingly small. You might as well complain that you always shoot things in FPS games.

    When I say "the exact same thing" I mean the things you do each day are exactly the same. In WotLK, Cata and MoP you would fly to the same point, drop on the same mobs and complete the same objectives the same way. With world quests first you check what the emissary is, different emissary quests will encourage you to quest in different zones. Then you check which quests are available, the ones you choose to do will be based on how much you like that particular quest, which rewards it offers and how convenient it is to get to this may change with mood. You may or may not do more than just the emissary quest depending on rewards or mood.
    I guess all I was really saying is that the pool that the game uses to randomize lacks variety. It was the same problem that Apexis had. Despite being in different zones, it was still just "fill the bar". WQs suffer a similar problem. They're all mostly just "Kill X" or "Click X" without any real context. Blizzard could add some variety, deepen the pool of potential types of quests. Perhaps add chains of objectives, or more vehicle-type objectives or special tools. More things like the Kirin Tor missions, and less mindless repetitive non-challenge chores.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Except the improvements you want are based around completely different gameplay (no killing or clicking things for quests) and you also want to introduce some sort of flying mechanic despite the vast majority of the game being to do with ground playing. Once you start asking for fundamental changes like that you may as well be playing a different game altogether.
    I don't necessarily want a different flying mechanic. I've always said that I think it's necessary in order to integrate it more fully into the overall design of the open world, and would make it easier to balance. But I've also given plenty of ways to use the existing flight mechanics as well.

    As for it being an entirely different game: TBC through MOP had flight and was still WoW. All of the supposed problem surrounding flight are created by trying to force ground-only design. Flight was not a problem until Blizzard made it into one.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    You know the reasons
    Yes, and as I said, those reasons are bullshit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    I will say that if they don't add anything new to Zandalar and Kul'Tiras they might as well have introduced Pathfinder Part 2 to 8.1 and have a Part 3 for the next patch, but outside these little bubbles it's hardly a big deal. Most players are either happy to get on with it or to wait for the full thing to be released and play then.
    "Most players" huh? You mean of the ones who haven't already quit. And of those remaining players, even many of them have expressed the feeling that they're sick of not being able to fly for so long.

    Pathfinder needs to change. The way flight is handled needs to change. Sticking doggedly to the same open world formula needs to change. Otherwise the game will continue to decline.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Because I like wpvp
    Oh look...the WPVP excuse again. /facepalm

    If you like WPVP, why aren't you advocating for more WPVP objectives, rewards, and incentives instead of trying to use flight as a scapegoat? Why aren't you seeking to improve what you enjoy instead of trying to blame flight for something it's not actually responsible for?

    Flight doesn't hurt WPVP. The complete and total lack of any tangible reason to engage in WPVP is at fault. There's nothing to fight over. No rewards worth a damn that aren't just PVE rewards. And getting those rewards are more easily done in BGs or Arenas.

    You are barking up the wrong tree.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Oh look...the WPVP excuse again. /facepalm

    If you like WPVP, why aren't you advocating for more WPVP objectives, rewards, and incentives instead of trying to use flight as a scapegoat? Why aren't you seeking to improve what you enjoy instead of trying to blame flight for something it's not actually responsible for?

    Flight doesn't hurt WPVP. The complete and total lack of any tangible reason to engage in WPVP is at fault. There's nothing to fight over. No rewards worth a damn that aren't just PVE rewards. And getting those rewards are more easily done in BGs or Arenas.

    You are barking up the wrong tree.
    Who says I'm not? I've put in feedback to Blizzard asking for neat things like the ffa zones and towers we had in Legion. And the rest of your post is just you being your typical self: this thing is worthless and no one should enjoy doing it therefore anyone who claims it's a reason for doing anything is wrong.

    Also I can't help but not that you latched on to that and completely ignored the rest of my post. When we're this long into the expansion and people don't even know how to follow the roads because they just use a flight path, whistle back to town, and repeat, something is wrong. And you want to rush into an even more extreme version of that, basically point the way, numlock, alt tab?
    Last edited by cparle87; 2019-05-21 at 10:49 PM.

  13. #293
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    At the end of the day, pathfinder is another gating mechanism. Blizzard can dress it up in flowery language about world exploration or whatever, but it is clearly intended as a gate.
    I'm a crazy taco.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by tacoloco View Post
    At the end of the day, pathfinder is another gating mechanism. Blizzard can dress it up in flowery language about world exploration or whatever, but it is clearly intended as a gate.
    It's a MMO, of course there will be gating. Why is theis even news? If there weren't any time gating in MMOs, no one would play once they finished content in the first weeks. This shit has been around since the dawn of the genre in some form or another. I just find this one to be in better taste. They want the game to played in a particular manner. Nothing wring with imposing that will. It is their game.

  15. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kataroku View Post
    This isn't a thread about pro / anti flight. My post was to point out the reason why we lost flight in the first place.

    Too many people repeat the rhetoric that Blizzard did this for the player's benefit, which isn't true.

    I'm setting the record straight.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Thanks for not reading my post!
    I get what you made the thread for, but it simply get overshadowed by how unforgiveable and notoriously stupid it was to remove it in the first place. Reason doesn't matter.

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Who says I'm not? I've put in feedback to Blizzard asking for neat things like the ffa zones and towers we had in Legion. And the rest of your post is just you being your typical self: this thing is worthless and no one should enjoy doing it therefore anyone who claims it's a reason for doing anything is wrong.

    Also I can't help but not that you latched on to that and completely ignored the rest of my post. When we're this long into the expansion and people don't even know how to follow the roads because they just use a flight path, whistle back to town, and repeat, something is wrong. And you want to rush into an even more extreme version of that, basically point the way, numlock, alt tab?
    I started out by firing right back at you with an angry reply. I deleted that post, and I'm going to take my own advice and step back a bit and try to understand with reasonable discussion.

    Let's go ahead and discuss the WPVP issue in light of pathfinder. I'll start by pointing out that many Pro-flight players(myself included) feel that the best solution, where everyone gets what they want in regards to PVP, is to simply disable flight when War Mode is toggled on.

    Do you see any flaws with that solution? Do you see any way in which Pathfinder, as it is now, improves WPVP? Or is there some other aspect of the topic we're missing?

    And I feel I have to clarify that I don't want "to rush into an even more extreme version of that, basically point the way, numlock, alt tab". What I want is for flight to be fully integrated into the open world design. Which includes challenges for both ground and flying players. But barring that, I think that even going back to something more like Stormpeaks would be an improvement on what we got with BfA.

    You made the point that people are already being stupid about how they approach existing ground content, using the example of your guildy. The point I would like you to consider is twofold:

    • If people will gladly run straight through and past existing ground content, ignoring everything, on their way to their target(as we saw with @Lei's linked video earlier in the thread), how is that effectively different than with flying?
    • If the problem of content being ignored is the same, whether on the ground or flying, then maybe the problem isn't with the mode of travel, but the content itself.


    If you can understand that, then please understand that what Im advocating is not just dropping flight onto the same weak content, but using flight as a platform to push for better, more complex content design.

    That's the overarching concept. But specifically I also don't believe that withholding flight for 9 months is actually benefiting the game, nor is it necessary to ensure players fully experience the grounded content. More importantly, I feel if the open world included and used flight in its design, sich delaying tactics as pathfinder wouldn't be necessary at all.

    However, as long as we're stuck with it, Pathfinder could at least be implemented better. We can discuss ways to do that, if you're interested.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-05-22 at 03:46 AM.

  17. #297
    To me it's about getting to know the world. They are right in saying you don't experience the world they create through flying.
    To this day I still don't know my way around on the ground in Hyjal or any Cata zone for example, while for any other I know the way/roads from memory.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Varjo410 View Post
    To me it's about getting to know the world. They are right in saying you don't experience the world they create through flying.
    To this day I still don't know my way around on the ground in Hyjal or any Cata zone for example, while for any other I know the way/roads from memory.
    Have you tried....I don't know...maybe doing the zones without your flying mount?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SirBeef View Post
    It's a MMO, of course there will be gating. Why is theis even news? If there weren't any time gating in MMOs, no one would play once they finished content in the first weeks. This shit has been around since the dawn of the genre in some form or another. I just find this one to be in better taste. They want the game to played in a particular manner. Nothing wring with imposing that will. It is their game.
    It's not really a question of if there's gating or not. It's a question of how reasonable or fun that gating is.

    Something like a DPS gear check for a raid is generally fun, but not if the gear needed to reach that check takes a year to acquire. Similarly, Pathfinder not actually giving you flight even 8-9 months after you've done the work is pretty unreasonable.

    So it's not that Flight is being gated. It's HOW it's being gated.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Have you tried....I don't know...maybe doing the zones without your flying mount?
    Obviously yes? How would I know otherwise I'm lost on the ground?
    The point was having flight right away will never immerse you into a zone like learning to navigate it on the ground. You always end up choosing the most efficient way.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Varjo410 View Post
    Obviously yes? How would I know otherwise I'm lost on the ground?
    The point was having flight right away will never immerse you into a zone like learning to navigate it on the ground. You always end up choosing the most efficient way.
    Not everyone does that. And not everyone experiences immersion the same way. Which is why we get complaints about flying mounts not working being less immersive, especially when there's no in-game context or explanation.

    Also, which way was more fun or immersive for you? Ground or air?

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