Seriously what are these Jaina "nerfs"

[trm90]

Not at all, as we're one of the guilds that decided to just not really worry about the instance. Instead just farming BoD for Jaina mounts and will put a little progression in but ultimately just chill out until Azshara.

Sounds like a good idea tbh, I'm pretty envious. My guild has decided to do only one more BoD reclear until we clear M CoS, which is probably 1.5 months away, and we only killed Jaina this week... a little bit worried about burnout. It's really mentally exhausting to go from one 300+ wipe boss, to Cabal (100+ wipes I guess?) and then Uunat (probably 400+ wipes).

[KaPe]

Sounds like a good idea tbh, I'm pretty envious. My guild has decided to do only one more BoD reclear until we clear M CoS, which is probably 1.5 months away, and we only killed Jaina this week... a little bit worried about burnout. It's really mentally exhausting to go from one 300+ wipe boss, to Cabal (100+ wipes I guess?) and then Uunat (probably 400+ wipes).

Even reclearing BoD can be a nuisance if you were extending on Jaina for several weeks. I know we've gotten fairly rusty and wiped on some pretty trivial stuff when we did that - even though we supposedly "mastered" the place a while ago. Hundreds of wipes on the same boss tends to do that.

[muto]

We still have a problem with people dying on the boat. Is the last phase doable with 5 healers? 2 Resto Shamans running Igneous Potential. I have a feeling it will end poorly.

[KaPe]

We still have a problem with people dying on the boat. Is the last phase doable with 5 healers? 2 Resto Shamans running Igneous Potential. I have a feeling it will end poorly.

People have been doing 5 healers for quite a while. It's not really needed, but if you can get an extra res totem on the boat, it can speed up your progress drastically. P1 is a bitch even after you killed the boss, so making it easier is worth it.

[Nitros14]

We still have a problem with people dying on the boat. Is the last phase doable with 5 healers? 2 Resto Shamans running Igneous Potential. I have a feeling it will end poorly.

We killed the boss after 413 pulls, but probably 300 of those pulls were phase 1 wipes. Personally I think this fight is best 4-healed after the nerfs but your mileage may vary.

[trm90]

Yeah I would agree that you should just 4-heal it (also, the DPS Resto shaman meme needs to die. I cannot stress how unbelievably boring it is for the player).

And speaking of P1 wipes: although the P3 nerfs are disappointing mostly because it makes the last phase feel pretty anticlimatic, like Nitros our guild also had 70%+ of our wipes on P1 alone. So although the nerfs were substantial, a lot of the difficulty is still there in P1 alone.

[Yunaqt]

Even reclearing BoD can be a nuisance if you were extending on Jaina for several weeks. I know we've gotten fairly rusty and wiped on some pretty trivial stuff when we did that - even though we supposedly "mastered" the place a while ago. Hundreds of wipes on the same boss tends to do that.

I thought we would be like this especially since we extended from Stormwall onwards since we had enough gear to finish the tier. So was ~7 weeks total, first week back we cleared to Stormwall in the 1 night and the following week got back to and a couple of attempts into Jaina in the 3 hours we raid. Was pleasantly surprised.

[KaPe]

I thought we would be like this especially since we extended from Stormwall onwards since we had enough gear to finish the tier. So was ~7 weeks total, first week back we cleared to Stormwall in the 1 night and the following week got back to and a couple of attempts into Jaina in the 3 hours we raid. Was pleasantly surprised.

Good for you. Myself, I totally forgot about gem uptime on Opulence or grips on Meka or bad Conclave timings causing Kimbul to jump at you during Paku's wrath. Sure, none of that compares to something like rekilling Aggramar, but it slows down the "easy farm". Why exactly are there no shortcuts in this raid, I have no idea.

Well, at least rekilling Jaina was a cinch, her new P3 is so much more relaxing.

[Yunaqt]

Good for you. Myself, I totally forgot about gem uptime on Opulence or grips on Meka or bad Conclave timings causing Kimbul to jump at you during Paku's wrath. Sure, none of that compares to something like rekilling Aggramar, but it slows down the "easy farm". Why exactly are there no shortcuts in this raid, I have no idea.

Well, at least rekilling Jaina was a cinch, her new P3 is so much more relaxing.

Meanwhile rekilling Jaina took us an entire night post nerf... Seems we're good at doing the same thing but interesting at learning something different.

[wombats23]

just because the dps resto build is boring doesn't make it any less effective (or make it a meme?). if a guild just getting to mythic jaina now has the option to run a 5th healer as a 3x IP resto shaman, i think it's 100% worth it.

-the dps checks on the fight have been completely smashed thanks to another 5% hp nerf
-having an APT means that's 1 less brez you have to save for the tanks in p3
-SLT and HTT means you'll have CDs to spare for high stacks in p2

while i 100% agree that a 5th healer isn't required for this fight by any stretch of the imagination, having a 5th healer, in particular a DPS resto shaman, offers far more to your raid than a 14th dps would.

[Nitros14]

-the dps checks on the fight have been completely smashed thanks to another 5% hp nerf
-having an APT means that's 1 less brez you have to save for the tanks in p3
-SLT and HTT means you'll have CDs to spare for high stacks in p2

On the other hand, the fight isn't particularly healing intensive at any point anymore since you can start p3 with 0 stacks. Phase 2 is far more about barrel/cd management than raw HPS and since the nerf you can use all your healing cooldowns in phase 2 because the second intermission is so much longer and they'll be back up. An extra DPS should do notably more than your average dps resto shaman in a world 1,000+ guild and getting through the first intermission/p3 faster will notably reduce the amount of healing you have to do.

[wombats23]

On the other hand, the fight isn't particularly healing intensive at any point anymore since you can start p3 with 0 stacks. Phase 2 is far more about barrel/cd management than raw HPS and since the nerf you can use all your healing cooldowns in phase 2 because the second intermission is so much longer and they'll be back up. An extra DPS should do notably more than your average dps resto shaman in a world 1,000+ guild and getting through the first intermission/p3 faster will notably reduce the amount of healing you have to do.

If P2 is all about CDs, how is adding 2 extra raid CDs to your comp not preferred? You need to hold dps to have 2m CDs come back up for the wall anyway so 4 healing P2 doesn't have any benefit, but 5 healing it does make healing the high stack parts of the fight easier.

In particular, if your comp doesn't have multiple 1.5m-2m CDs (disc, rdruid, pally), the 3rd barrel can be really challenging if she does avalanche before broadsides and you weren't able to broadside the 3rd barrel from a previous broadside. To make matters worse, if RNG really wants to screw you over, multiple healers will get targetted by broadside and siegebreaker. At least from my PoV, after you learn the movement for P2, the "only" thing that can screw you over is that 3rd barrel and adding a 5th healer increases how reliably you can get past that barrel with everyone alive by such a large factor that I can't imagine why you wouldn't want to 5 heal Jaina during progression.

The alternative that you're suggesting is to just spread your CDs out thinner with 4 healers and have some ready for that 3rd barrel, but then you'll have to have an extended 2nd intermission where you just dance long enough for your CDs to be back when they're needed in P3. And while I agree that absolutely works, I personally think that's just a less efficient use of time than just learning the fight with a 5th healer. (And again, your P2 is just simply more consistent with a 5th healer.)


Regarding P3, here's a screenshot of Jaina damage in P3 from a random 5 healer kill I found that was on the slow side (9:3x kill)
https://gyazo.com/50ca531a5d12c9f4c05d220873064304

So 31.77m damage done over 102.1s. If that dps resto shaman did 0 dps during P3, raid DPS would be reduced to 311,331.7 - 17,781.6 = 293,550.1 dps.

31.77m / 293,550.1 = 108.2s

So basically, if that 5th healer did literally 0 damage, he would have needed to do enough healing to have the raid live 6.1s longer for them to have killed Jaina. SLT lasts 6 seconds.

Obviously this is highly simplified, but it's pretty easy to see that a 5th healer will be "worth" it in almost all cases.

[Nitros14]

That is an incredibly long p3 they have there. Presumably all frozen by the second orb and the boss dying from dots.

Since the nerf I think dropping the 5th healer for an extra dps is extra helpful in phase 3 because it's reasonable to kill the boss in 80-85 seconds. Even on our scuffed kill this week we killed it in 87 seconds. Killing it this fast does two things, it means you'll only get the blizzard at the very end of the fight and will be dealing with only 8-9 stacks right up until the boss dies, so healing cds can cover the entire duration of having 13-14 stacks. And it means you'll kill the boss before icefalls land. That's a much better chance of a kill.

Also, an extra dps should get you through the first intermission faster, meaning you can delay barrel 1 longer, which means you can delay barrel 2 longer which in turn trivializes the healing for barrel 3+siegebreaker.

In truth though, either strategy works the boss just isn't that hard now.

[MrExcelion]

Sounds like a good idea tbh, I'm pretty envious. My guild has decided to do only one more BoD reclear until we clear M CoS, which is probably 1.5 months away, and we only killed Jaina this week... a little bit worried about burnout. It's really mentally exhausting to go from one 300+ wipe boss, to Cabal (100+ wipes I guess?) and then Uunat (probably 400+ wipes).

It's each guild's individual decision to make, but I think a lot of guilds just killing Jaina now won't touch CoS. Farm those mounts. The thing isn't just the pulls, but the comps are a big turnoff too. You risk burnout with preparing more ele sham/lock alts and all the wipes.

- - - Updated - - -

Why exactly are there no shortcuts in this raid, I have no idea

Was the case with Uldir too for whatever reason. Has been missing since Legion.

- - - Updated - - -

We still have a problem with people dying on the boat. Is the last phase doable with 5 healers? 2 Resto Shamans running Igneous Potential. I have a feeling it will end poorly.

Drop the 2x res totems in P1. It'll be up in the last phase again.

[muto]

But that still didn't really answer my question. Is it worth it to 5 heal? Our 4 heal comp is Holy Pally, 2x Holy Priest, 1x Resto Sham.

Also forgot to ask. Is it worth it to try and push Jaina on the boat before the Blizzard (Fog) + Avalanche + Ordinance combo, or wait until after? We were having an issue where we were pushing during it, so we had 2-3 stacks jumping off the boat. It feels pretty tight to try and push before.

This is our damage to boss in p1,

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...2.23&target=25

[KaPe]

But that still didn't really answer my question. Is it worth it to 5 heal? Our 4 heal comp is Holy Pally, 2x Holy Priest, 1x Resto Sham.

Also forgot to ask. Is it worth it to try and push Jaina on the boat before the Blizzard (Fog) + Avalanche + Ordinance combo, or wait until after? We were having an issue where we were pushing during it, so we had 2-3 stacks jumping off the boat. It feels pretty tight to try and push before.

This is our damage to boss in p1,

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...2.23&target=25

What's preventing you from clearing your stacks during Fog? You can dance in and out of fire, 3+ stacks during intermission is easily avoidable. It's possible to stop dps and wait, but that means dealing with 3rd bombard and another set of avalanches. Sure, it's not exactly the pinnacle of difficulty, but it's another possible way to die on the boat.

And if you're having issues with Phase 1 *and* you can get an extra shaman - go for it. Bonus ankh totem to drop during bombard/avalanche gives you more chance to fix mistakes on boat. P1 is the most chaotic part of the fight, where individual mistakes are extremely punishing and you can't afford to "res them later". P3 dps check is so much more lenient now, what with no elemental, guaranteed zero stacks and easy positioning during barrage.

[AgilityTank]

Also forgot to ask. Is it worth it to try and push Jaina on the boat before the Blizzard (Fog) + Avalanche + Ordinance combo, or wait until after? We were having an issue where we were pushing during it, so we had 2-3 stacks jumping off the boat. It feels pretty tight to try and push before.

Push as hard as you can to try and beat it. If you can't then have ppl stand in fire right before the phase tics over at 60.5%

[shyguybman]

I'm about 75% sure as soon as we kill Jaina everyone will want a break and we won't even attempt M CoS ever.

[trm90]

just because the dps resto build is boring doesn't make it any less effective (or make it a meme?). if a guild just getting to mythic jaina now has the option to run a 5th healer as a 3x IP resto shaman, i think it's 100% worth it.

-the dps checks on the fight have been completely smashed thanks to another 5% hp nerf
-having an APT means that's 1 less brez you have to save for the tanks in p3
-SLT and HTT means you'll have CDs to spare for high stacks in p2

while i 100% agree that a 5th healer isn't required for this fight by any stretch of the imagination, having a 5th healer, in particular a DPS resto shaman, offers far more to your raid than a 14th dps would.

Oh I don't think it's ineffective, I was actually specced into it as the 5th healer for our kill this week and we learned it that way (and I have to do it again for Cabal... yay...). I just don't know if a DPS Resto is straight up better though. An argument can be made that if the same RSham specced into Ele, you push your boss DPS by about 7k, and you push the boss through P1 and P2 faster. But I agree that the extra CDs are nice get-out-of-jail free cards for P1, 3rd barrel in P2, and tank deaths in P3.

Main thing is that the guild should decide early on whether or not they'll bring the 5th healer, because the pacing of the fight feels quite different if they don't.

[Sxq]

Oh I don't think it's ineffective, I was actually specced into it as the 5th healer for our kill this week and we learned it that way (and I have to do it again for Cabal... yay...). I just don't know if a DPS Resto is straight up better though. An argument can be made that if the same RSham specced into Ele, you push your boss DPS by about 7k, and you push the boss through P1 and P2 faster. But I agree that the extra CDs are nice get-out-of-jail free cards for P1, 3rd barrel in P2, and tank deaths in P3.

After the changes, we have to stop dps in phase 1 in order to not push during blizzard. Phase 2 has a very generous timing window of when you can start the ice wall now too. We still 4 healed, but honestly it probably would have been cleaner with 5.