Ffxiv: Gm jail : My story

[Irian]

Press X, for doubt.

Okay.

I mean, unless you want me to go dig up my report history from 14 years ago I don't really have any way to prove that it happened, so you can personally believe what you want. But if you go into the ToS yourself you'll see that hard profanity outside of private chat channels is against both WoW and FFXIV's ToS.

you should just cancel your sub, man.

the shit i read about the updated tos shows what kind of people play this game. browsing different threads on it only confirms it.

go to eso or wow or something.

That whole thing was kind of deceptive because of the hysteria that people reacted to it with. People were talking like it was the end of the world and to this day some groups are up in arms about it, but all it basically did was keep people from harassing or griefing people because they were new or bad at the game. It was a whole lot of words to shore up potential loopholes in harassment where technically someone may not be breaking rules while still treating people like shit.

I mean, I guess that's more than WoW is willing to do, but I'd call that a positive rather than a negative. You can still call people out for being bad and you can still kick people if they aren't playing correctly. What you can't do is treat them like shit or escalate it. There was always a "don't ask, don't tell" rule with talk about parsing/recount in the game so that hasn't changed, but that particular change was basically a really absurd "sky is falling" moment where the playerbase turned stupid for a week or so and then nothing came out of it.

[lolvik]

You made a damn blog to complain about that your ban?
That's like a living meme.

[unbound]

I think the OP doth protest too much for it to be the complete story.

Keep in mind that offensive language is not restricted to just swearing. Various demeaning language (e.g. mongoloid) is covered by the same rules.

I would guess that the OP did indeed say some rather offensive things to earn a 4 day ban. Per the chat she posted at her blog, it was reviewed by a Senior Game Manager.

[Lurker1]

you should just cancel your sub, man.

the shit i read about the updated tos shows what kind of people play this game. browsing different threads on it only confirms it.

go to eso or wow or something.

I have to agree here im only lvl 43 there and i can tell already that game is very goody goody or get banned place lol.

[Wrecktangle]

Either you know damn rightly what you did, or you believe you are an angel that can’t do wrong even when you do. Either way, you are to blame.

Take the 4 day ban, go for walks, go to a cooking class, just take a break. I got banned for calling someone a pedo once, but I didn’t moan about it. I just played something else for the next 48 hours.

While I did not read the OP's blog and I have never been banned in game (despite telling people I kicked them from party for poor performance, and other such behaviors (savage pugs)), I was once temporarily banned from the forums for merely saying the letters ACT. That's literally the reason it gave me.

What made it worse was that according to the gen forum rules I did not break a rule. In fact the poster I was responding to broke the rule about not spreading misinformation, but yet I was given a 10 day ban. Despite that poster saying the letters ACT and citing misinformation, I was banned and they were not (my post was marked "deleted" and theirs wasn't.

The actual context of the discussion was a poster saying ACT is useless because it doesn't take into account anything but DPS and they citing an example of an RDM who does a lot of ressing not being given credit via the program. I corrected this notion and explained where in ACT it can be found.

So there's definitely SOME measure of SE being ham handed, or at the VERY least inconsistent in punishment. I did eventually receive a perma ban and while I don't agree with it, I can UNDERSTAND why they arrived at that conclusion. Another player was trying to offer tips on how to play a tank, while citing really bad examples.

I corrected them and explained why my points were the correct ones and they jumped down my throat saying it was just a game and even if their way wasn't the most optimal it's still fine enough and fair advice. I then proceeded to link their logs to them (sub 10th percentile in normal content) and explain that they shouldn't be giving performance oriented advice about being a PLD when they don't even use 50% of their abilities (They didn't use Requiescat, Holy Spirit, Royal Authority, Goring Blade and others. They literally just spammed Rage of Halone in level 70 content in Shield Oath).

So yes linking their logs was what got me banned, and I knew going in that was a possibility, but I don't agree with it, as it's not publicly identifiable information (per SE), but I do understand why they chose to do it, and thus am ok-ish with it.

To the OP though? No idea.

[Katchii]

My only 2 cents is that these don't happen for no reason. The OP did something that triggered somebody or a few somebodies and got reported enough to have a GM look into it. That's really all it is.

The only mantra I've ever really lived by in online (or pretty much any) situation is "don't be a dick." Really boils down to WHY you're saying something and what effect it could have on the person. If it's only being said out of malice or could easily be perceived as offensive, either don't say it or find a nicer way to say it. Never been banned, but I know for sure I've upset many people by telling them they're not performing well etc... I just don't do it maliciously.

[Kurve1776]

I have macros that I use often in randoms that literally draw dicks in the chat and I've never even been warned. I find it hard to believe you've been banned over saying "fuck" a few times.

[Zenfoldor]

While I did not read the OP's blog and I have never been banned in game (despite telling people I kicked them from party for poor performance, and other such behaviors (savage pugs)), I was once temporarily banned from the forums for merely saying the letters ACT. That's literally the reason it gave me.

What made it worse was that according to the gen forum rules I did not break a rule. In fact the poster I was responding to broke the rule about not spreading misinformation, but yet I was given a 10 day ban. Despite that poster saying the letters ACT and citing misinformation, I was banned and they were not (my post was marked "deleted" and theirs wasn't.

The actual context of the discussion was a poster saying ACT is useless because it doesn't take into account anything but DPS and they citing an example of an RDM who does a lot of ressing not being given credit via the program. I corrected this notion and explained where in ACT it can be found.

So there's definitely SOME measure of SE being ham handed, or at the VERY least inconsistent in punishment. I did eventually receive a perma ban and while I don't agree with it, I can UNDERSTAND why they arrived at that conclusion. Another player was trying to offer tips on how to play a tank, while citing really bad examples.

I corrected them and explained why my points were the correct ones and they jumped down my throat saying it was just a game and even if their way wasn't the most optimal it's still fine enough and fair advice. I then proceeded to link their logs to them (sub 10th percentile in normal content) and explain that they shouldn't be giving performance oriented advice about being a PLD when they don't even use 50% of their abilities (They didn't use Requiescat, Holy Spirit, Royal Authority, Goring Blade and others. They literally just spammed Rage of Halone in level 70 content in Shield Oath).

So yes linking their logs was what got me banned, and I knew going in that was a possibility, but I don't agree with it, as it's not publicly identifiable information (per SE), but I do understand why they chose to do it, and thus am ok-ish with it.

To the OP though? No idea.

Yes, I seem to remember SE being very against any kind of performance analysis in that game. I will never understand it. They are trying to create an environment where it is more difficult to identify bad players. However, most games also have a thing called "challenge" and I absolutely must know if my challenge is being artificially increased because I'm carrying someone. That is one big reason I don't play some online games. The performance metrics aren't there.

I mean, anyone can play how they want, just not with me. I require at least middling performance in a multiplayer game.

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These threads are always hilarious.

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So you’re worried that companies are actually enforcing their ToS these days? Seems a weird thing to freak out about.

Hmm, well I would be more concerned over the content of the ToS and not the enforcement.

I don't think any ToS should contain rules against player behavior that can be controlled mechanically, for example. If the F word is a problem for rando dev 2 why allow it to be said in chat? Why not censor it with a chat filter. I mean, the long and short is they can do what they want and I can choose to play or not, but it just seems like bait when you make things that can easily be done in game into bannable offenses.

That said, it doesn't matter right now. None of these ToS things are really that offensive yet, but if they ever do get "real" about banning toxicity, then we will have a lot of players start voting with their wallets concerning ToS and it will matter then. I mean, when you have a language filter, why are you still punishing players for language, assuming they didn't intentionally exploit that filter?

[Seranthor]

Well, I'm not allowed to post any links or images until I've posted a few times, so I guess I'll just start by saying that I have recently been banned from FFXIV. This is my first ban ever in over 20 years of gaming which I think says a lot about the direction the gaming community is going in sadly. Apparently, I was banned for "inappropriate language". I rarely talk in chat and after thoroughly reviewing the new ToS, I have been vigilant in minding my Ps and Qs, making sure to stay cordial and informative, if I interact at all, so as not to offend anyone. I was told that while I may have been careful in my language that I need to be "even more careful" .. whatever that means. I'm not sure what I could have possibly said that would warrant a 4 day ban. I may have dropped an F bomb in Eureka like "ah fuck" if I missed a fate but who doesn't? When I asked the GM to please inform me of what I said that was wrong so that I could take care not to say it again he absolutely refused. All of this is screenshot and uploaded on my blogpost. You can access it at ffxivgmjail2019(dot)blogspot(dot)com. I feel like this is a very strange development in the gaming community and if people like me are being banned then something has gone very very wrong. Anyway, I'm seriously considering cancelling my sub so any suggestions for an MMO that isn't WOW would be much appreciated! I really have no interested in paying a subscription that requires me to walk on eggshells every time I login. I know that people complain about this kind of thing and the usual response is "well you've must've done something" but that isn't the case here. I know that I have never said anything that any reasonable person would be offended by and for a game where the NPC pirates laugh about rape, use phrases like "Thall's balls" or "Sevenhells" and "Godsdammit" I wouldn't think "fuck" wouldn't be so offensive. And no, I have not engaged in any sort of squabbles with other players. In fact, I have taken extra care NOT to. That is why this is so befuddling. I know I'm not the only one who has experienced this so if you have a story, I wouldn't mind reading it! Might brighten this sad kupos day!

Thanks in advance,
Regina

Having been a GM for another MMO, I cant tell you the number of times I've heard a story that is similar to yours. Everyone is innocent, no one ever breaks the rules, except of course when they do. 4 days is NOT the end of the world. If you really are that soured on your game then move on to something else. Elsewise, take it as a learning experience and move forward.

The time you have invested in protesting your 'innocence' could be better invested in reading the ToS and identifying where you deviated. Creating a blog to protest a 4 day ban isn't going to get you unbanned, nor, is the sackcloth and ashes routine.

[Zenfoldor]

Mechanical methods have proven too easy to circumvent for most companies to rely on them. If you disagree with the ToS don’t play the game. If you agree to the ToS you can’t bitch when they’re enforced.

Yes, exactly. Vote with my wallet. I would not want to support a company with bad ToS anyway.

[Irian]

It's funny to me that you guys are acting like a game where people are actually civil, respectful, and helpful to each other is a bad thing.

This is exactly what annoys the hell out of me about the modern "game culture".

A game has rules that basically say "Don't spew hard profanity in public channels, don't be douchebags, and don't harass people" and people act like this is a bad thing. Why does everyone want an online community where people can get away with breaking ToS and being shitty to each other?

Rules exist for a reason, and FFXIV's ToS isn't even particularly strict. They just happen to actually enforce it instead of throwing the community to the wolves and saying "not my problem" like modern WoW and many competitive games do.

[Katchii]

Yes, exactly. Vote with my wallet. I would not want to support a company with bad ToS anyway.

The ToS here aren't "bad" though. They're trying to encourage a civil community. However, the issue here is that triggered snowflakes now feel entitled to never be offended or never be challenged about things and report people for absolutely stupid benign bullshit because they don't like it.

It's funny to me that you guys are acting like a game where people are actually civil, respectful, and helpful to each other is a bad thing.

The problem is, you can't enforce respect and civility, you can't force people to be a "good person." All heavy handed rules do is force people to not act out, that doesn't mean the underlying feelings don't remain, and then they just fester anyway. It also encourages intolerant thought police, which isn't really healthy either.

This is exactly what annoys the hell out of me about the modern "game culture".

I'll agree with this, but kind of on the opposite side of the argument. It's not just "game culture" it's everywhere. I can't stand the culture that's evolved that gives more rights to people who feel they have some inalienable right to not be offended, or never be exposed to something that they don't like, or that opposes their world view. That's bullshit.

A game has rules that basically say "Don't spew hard profanity in public channels, don't be douchebags, and don't harass people" and people act like this is a bad thing. Why does everyone want an online community where people can get away with breaking ToS and being shitty to each other?

The rules themselves are not a bad thing, per se, the issue is that they are being enforced somewhat heavy handedly because people can report someone enough to get a GM's attention, not necessarily because the person actually did anything "wrong" but because the person just offended someone.

In a case like this, the ruled aren't being enforced by the company, they're being enforced by individuals. So now, rather than teh company running the show because of it's rules, I'm now at the mercy of the community. And the community is chock full of individuals who can't take criticism, don't know how to handle naughty words, and cry when they're confronted with something they don't like.

It's not prevalent, at least it doesn't seem to be, but it does happen and that's pretty stupid.

Rules exist for a reason, and FFXIV's ToS isn't even particularly strict. They just happen to actually enforce it instead of throwing the community to the wolves and saying "not my problem" like modern WoW and many competitive games do.

As stated above, SE isn't really the one policing things, it's the community which is supported by the rules. It's ultimately up to SE to enforce the suspensions and whatnot, so they have the ultimate decision, but the rules they have allow for people to be reported and then ultimately suspended or banned because of things that don't really break any of the rules, but just piss people off...which is against the rules in the ToS.

I don't think the rules are bad, I just find them to be a little heavy handed and overly conservative in preserving the feelings of the community rather than encouraging positive behaviors. As others have said before, but specifically @Wrecktangle (as we've had several discussion in this thread about it) rules like this just make it more difficult to provide any sort of constructive criticism about performance or hold people accountable for their performance or behavior. While it's obviously disrespectful to tell someone they suck and they need to "git gud" or whatever, but to me it's equally disrespectful (if not more so) to purposefully waste other peoples time and lash out at people honestly to help you. If you're refusing to actively play your class in a dungeon/trial/raid and that causes the other three to 7 people in the group to carry you, pick up your slack, and spend twice as much time than necessary that should considered harassment and be punishable to the same degree, IMO.

[AIBot]

It happens, i got chat restriction for not chatting in LOL

[Faroth]

This is exactly what annoys the hell out of me about the modern "game culture".

A game has rules that basically say "Don't spew hard profanity in public channels, don't be douchebags, and don't harass people" and people act like this is a bad thing. Why does everyone want an online community where people can get away with breaking ToS and being shitty to each other?

Rules exist for a reason, and FFXIV's ToS isn't even particularly strict. They just happen to actually enforce it instead of throwing the community to the wolves and saying "not my problem" like modern WoW and many competitive games do.

Those people don't know how kind and gentle the developers and GMs are compared to community justice.

Imagine playing WoW, FFXIV, or any modern MMO where you got a reputation that essentially bans you from running a raid or even dungeons. That's what happened back in the EverQuest days. Be enough of a jerk, get a reputation, get blackballed from groups server-wide.

A lot of the features added over time that have eliminated the community aspects of MMORPGs have allowed for greater anonymity and thus removed the ability for community self-policing.

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The rules themselves are not a bad thing, per se, the issue is that they are being enforced somewhat heavy handedly because people can report someone enough to get a GM's attention, not necessarily because the person actually did anything "wrong" but because the person just offended someone.

In a case like this, the ruled aren't being enforced by the company, they're being enforced by individuals. So now, rather than teh company running the show because of it's rules, I'm now at the mercy of the community. And the community is chock full of individuals who can't take criticism, don't know how to handle naughty words, and cry when they're confronted with something they don't like.

GMs are basically mods.
If we get a dozen reports against you coming from one single individual, it's not going to do anything to further the likelihood of a ban. It just looks like someone has a personal beef. The logs have to be reviewed and read to determine the situation and the decision is made based on the guidelines of the ToS.

Plus, if you think GMs actions in an MMO aren't reviewed internally, you're greatly mistaken.

[Katchii]

GMs are basically mods.
If we get a dozen reports against you coming from one single individual, it's not going to do anything to further the likelihood of a ban. It just looks like someone has a personal beef. The logs have to be reviewed and read to determine the situation and the decision is made based on the guidelines of the ToS.

Plus, if you think GMs actions in an MMO aren't reviewed internally, you're greatly mistaken.

I'm not disagreeing with you on any of those points. However, the FFXIV ToS are pretty open ended as far as harassment is concerned.

It basically just says don't be offensive. Well, if someone reports me for something because they're offended by it, even if what I said isn't technically against the ToS...I still violated the ToS because someone got offended by what I said.

So, I'm sure there is a process that the GMs have to follow, but based on the actual verbiage in the policy there's not a whole lot of things that person couldn't technically be suspended for if someone reports me and says I offended them and provides proof of what I said/ did. Even if what I did wouldn't normally be considered "offensive" or be against the ToS otherwise.

http://support.na.square-enix.com/fa...6&id=5382&la=1

[Granyala]

Now think about it, do you really think the GMs would ban for no reason at all? They had a reason, it’s just your choice to accept that you did something wrong. Just because you can not remember, does not mean you didn’t do anything wrong. We all do something wrong at some point, it’s not that big of a deal. Remember, to err is human.

I find it absolutely absurd and very shady (if true) that the GM refused to state the exact formulation that was the reason for the ban.
Imho such information is vital to the offender, so he can assess what was done wrong and get a feel for where the bar sits.

When I got perma-banned from the WoW forums for using the slang "Blizz(T)ard" in an otherwise fun discussion about why mining adds mobs and herbing doesn't, they explicitly gave me that information. Not of much use to me, since they were in a "first offence = perma ban" mode back then but hey, at least I got the info.

[Gurluas]

I find it absolutely absurd and very shady (if true) that the GM refused to state the exact formulation that was the reason for the ban.
Imho such information is vital to the offender, so he can assess what was done wrong and get a feel for where the bar sits.

When I got perma-banned from the WoW forums for using the slang "Blizz(T)ard" in an otherwise fun discussion about why mining adds mobs and herbing doesn't, they explicitly gave me that information. Not of much use to me, since they were in a "first offence = perma ban" mode back then but hey, at least I got the info.

It's not the first time such a thing happened though, I've had it with women, games, etc. They expect you to know and refuse to tell you.
In Wow I had my guild name "Rashalgalia" revoked, why? Because it was offensive in another language.
What it meant or what language I never found out and the GM refused to say it. googling didn't help either.

[Aehl]

After all, that is why there is a language filter that is set to 'on' by default AND a feature that easily allows you to block people you feel offended or annoyed by.

AH HA. This little meme.

Thought so.

The TOS basically says dont be a jerk. So now tell us the rest of it. The filter is not a license to swear...and God how many times have I said this....

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Yes, I seem to remember SE being very against any kind of performance analysis in that game. I will never understand it. They are trying to create an environment where it is more difficult to identify bad players

Reread your sentence to see the answer.

Bad players..by whose metric. By what yardstick. Yours?

[Gibblewink]

I like to think of the language filter as a seat belt: It prevents injury in case of an accident, but it is not a license to drive like an idiot.

[Byleth]

Personally, I only ever cuss in my FC chat. Because I know all the people there, and I know it's not going to get me in trouble with a 'precious' random player.