The "modern values" argument

[Super Dickmann]

Oh cmon, people felt bad before the war ended too, folks who made the bomb were horrified and rightly so

Regardless, Sylvanas amorality is blinding her to better use of the horde, she's going for easy edgy solutions and saying they're necessary, when really if you apply moral weight you're forced to be a better leader, and it keeps internal friction down and morale more steady

The ones involved in making it sure, but were there no surrender, the bombs would've kept dropping and even now the moral panic surrounding the nukes are overblown relative to the effect of the prior bombing campaign. Then again, WW2 is the kind of thing most get into only in the broad strokes.

Vis a vis Sylvanas, in BFA she is let down by her gratuitous villainy, no argument there. If she'd just done the Derek thing in private and not told anyone she would have saved herself immense amounts of trouble and lost literally nothing, ditto if she'd just not done anything as regards Thrall. But given that she's just a victim of the villain bat that's about what we've got to expect.

As concerns her war time methodology though, partly because she barely does anything and partly because Blizzard don't remember their own content, but compared to how the Forsaken do war themselves, Sylvanas in BFA is much more tame up until the part where she sacrifices the Horde's fleet out to take out the Alliance one unbeknownst to any of them.

[Kallisto]

Yeah but at least the allies had the decency after Hiroshima and Nagasaki to go "my god what have we done"

Sylvanas just doesn't care

I wasn't even just thinking of that. But there is also Hamburg, Tokyo, Frankfurt, Dresden and many other Axis cities which were bombed heavily during the war with targets on civilian targets for the basic reason to break the will of the Germans/Italians/Japanese to fight.

Or to put it in simplest terms, to make them give up hope. And our leaders of the time, which today we hold in high regard just gave no fucks about the civilians. They were Japanese/German/Italians and just as guilty as the leadership or military and just as valid targets.

That's war, that's all out war. Not some super power vs some small country over there that's been every conflict involving US or Soviet Union/Russia since WW2. If two major powers went into all out war. The old way will be done again. Just be glad it's not happened and hopefully never will.

[cparle87]

Why would she ever believe that the Dreadlords had rules on killing each other? They're a race of backstabbers and liars.

I mean, she didn't need bombs to destroy all the infrastructure, just the upper city, tbh she wasted the bombs imo.

That's the problem, aside from one line to Saurfang she's said little else to support that imo, and sadly, large chunks of the playerbase will support her anyway.

Varimthras is a very good actor. She beat him, he pledged loyalty to him. She ordered him to kill his brother, a fellow dreadlord, be balked. His brother got all uppity, telling her there was no way in hell he'd go through with it, then acted notably shocked when he "did it." They're born manipulators.

I mean the whole upper undercity area. The ruins, the throne room, and all of them. Retreat, retreat, let the Alliance advance, fill the entire area with their troops. Let Anduin approach with the other leaders, then sneak out while the whole area is blighted. It was a good plan.

She's said it over and over again. Ingame, in the Good War/Eulogy books. Her entire motivation, she claims, is that long term peace is impossible. Yeah, we can have it now. But a few generations down the line the Alliance's descendents will only remember the bad and forget the good, and boggle at their elders allowing the Horde to live. They'll arm up and run roughshod over the peaceful, demilitarized Horde. The only way for the Horde to be safe, long term, is for the Alliance to be crushed permanently. Whether she actually believes this or not is up in the air still. But that's the motivation we have been presented to work with.

[Skytotem]

Varimthras is a very good actor. She beat him, he pledged loyalty to him. She ordered him to kill his brother, a fellow dreadlord, be balked. His brother got all uppity, telling her there was no way in hell he'd go through with it, then acted notably shocked when he "did it." They're born manipulators.

I mean the whole upper undercity area. The ruins, the throne room, and all of them. Retreat, retreat, let the Alliance advance, fill the entire area with their troops. Let Anduin approach with the other leaders, then sneak out while the whole area is blighted. It was a good plan.

She's said it over and over again. Ingame, in the Good War/Eulogy books. Her entire motivation, she claims, is that long term peace is impossible. Yeah, we can have it now. But a few generations down the line the Alliance's descendents will only remember the bad and forget the good, and boggle at their elders allowing the Horde to live. They'll arm up and run roughshod over the peaceful, demilitarized Horde. The only way for the Horde to be safe, long term, is for the Alliance to be crushed permanently. Whether she actually believes this or not is up in the air still. But that's the motivation we have been presented to work with.

It feels like a basic thing she'd check on though, call up some warlocks, go "Hey do Dreadlords even fucking HAVE this rule?"

Eh, falling back and then detonating bombs under your enemy is one thing... but Anduin had ordered his troops out of the city and she detonated the bombs AFTER that, and they were all in the lower level not up top.

Her reasoning for why longterm peace is impossible is dumb and pessimistic though. By her logic the Forsaken/Belfs can't have peace with the orcs either.

I wasn't even just thinking of that. But there is also Hamburg, Tokyo, Frankfurt, Dresden and many other Axis cities which were bombed heavily during the war with targets on civilian targets for the basic reason to break the will of the Germans/Italians/Japanese to fight.

Or to put it in simplest terms, to make them give up hope. And our leaders of the time, which today we hold in high regard just gave no fucks about the civilians. They were Japanese/German/Italians and just as guilty as the leadership or military and just as valid targets.

That's war, that's all out war. Not some super power vs some small country over there that's been every conflict involving US or Soviet Union/Russia since WW2. If two major powers went into all out war. The old way will be done again. Just be glad it's not happened and hopefully never will.

You're missing equivalency though, the only time the Alliance has bombed a Horde settlement was Taurajo and the alliance even acknowledged it was a soft target and did a lot of handwringing.

WW2 irl isn't a case of Allies giving 'no fucks' about civilians, it was at least seen as an unfortunate necessity to deter the Axis from bombing allied civilians, not an expedient like Sylvanas and the Forsaken often treat such tactics as.

Regardless, Blizz is clearly not interested in exploring those nuances (another reason it's bad for them to toss in these parallels if they're not ready to handle them)

[Alex86el]

sshh dont ruin it for all the teenage edgelords.

[cparle87]

It feels like a basic thing she'd check on though, call up some warlocks, go "Hey do Dreadlords even fucking HAVE this rule?"

Eh, falling back and then detonating bombs under your enemy is one thing... but Anduin had ordered his troops out of the city and she detonated the bombs AFTER that, and they were all in the lower level not up top.

Her reasoning for why longterm peace is impossible is dumb and pessimistic though. By her logic the Forsaken/Belfs can't have peace with the orcs either.





You're missing equivalency though, the only time the Alliance has bombed a Horde settlement was Taurajo and the alliance even acknowledged it was a soft target and did a lot of handwringing.

WW2 irl isn't a case of Allies giving 'no fucks' about civilians, it was at least seen as an unfortunate necessity to deter the Axis from bombing allied civilians, not an expedient like Sylvanas and the Forsaken often treat such tactics as.

Regardless, Blizz is clearly not interested in exploring those nuances (another reason it's bad for them to toss in these parallels if they're not ready to handle them)

You have to realize at this point nobody knew anything about dreadlords, not even warlocks. They're not like imps or infernals or any other kind of demon they'd encountered up to that point.

I had forgotten that. Then my stance is "If I lose the city I'm going to make sure you can't take it." Also might be a secondary effect of ensuring they can't rebuild it like they later did to Stromgarde and use it against other Forsaken locations like the Bulwark, Sepulcher, and Tarren Mill. Blight, especially that concentrated, makes place uninhabitable, even by undead, for decades. Also no, they were not in the lower level. They were in the Throne Room. Genn even calls Sylvanas out for sitting on Terenas' throne.

There's a helluva lot less trouble between those mentioned races. Orcs attacked humans who became undead and high elves who become blood elves under the blood curse and had diminished capacity, this is understood and accepted. Undead attacked the others while mindless Scourge, the others accept this. You have to understand. Besides the tauren and pandaren all the current Horde races fought and killed each other at some point in the past, but were able to look past it by choice or necessity for mutual support.

Humans have never accepted the blood curse as a defense and still cite actions from the first two wars as justification. They also lump all undead together as monsters to be destroyed, not caring that the forsaken are sapient individuals. They always see yesterday's enemy as today's enemy as tomorrow's enemy and believe they can't change. Remember what Thalyssra said when her people joined the Horde? Something along the lines of "The Alliance will expect us to conform to what they want us to be. The Horde will support us and help us see the world, and we can still stay ourselves."

[Restors]

I just don't get how Blizzard doesn't understand that players liked how the Horde had different sets of morals based on each race. I loved rolling a forsaken and riding a skeleton horse through Silverpine forest with Sylvanas and fighting alongside the Valkyr kill and raise humans to fight. I loved interacting with forsaken characters that were tinkering with new forms of blight or poisons and tested them on scarlet crusade. Seeing them blow up or melt in their cage was awesome. But now it seems like Blizzard is trying to kill off the forsaken so "muh honor bois" can quest for Boi King Anduin. They want everyone to be consolidated into one identity and it pisses me off.

That... was... beautiful said.... *sheds many tears* ... gotta punch a wall to attempt regain som manhood.. but damn it, well said!

[KaPe]

IS she successful though? Horde took 8-1 casualties in darkshore and we're apparently losing in all fronts before 8.2, where we lose the REST of our navy.

None of that matters, since logistics in WoW have nothing to do with reality. That was already obvious back in WoD, where the Horde, supposedly crippled after their civil war, was perfectly willing to start shit in Ashran. One expansion later, they're basically equal to Alliance. One more, they're on the offensive.

Or how Alliance was supposedly running out of soldiers already back in one of the cinematics. Except there are somehow whole squads of Void Elves taking part in Dazar'alor campaign. Or nothing really indicates this dire shortage in manpower outside of this one scene.

I'm sure lorewise, "Night Warrior" Tyrande carved a bloody path through Horde in Darkshore, except we've seen none of that. Hell, for all we know, Sylvanas will magically ressurect entire armies with void magic in the next patch, all of them conveniently loyal to her and willing to slaughter their former comrades. The future of this war will proceed in a way that writers want it to be, regardless of what it "logically" seems like.

[Artelia]

It wasn’t always like this. Each faction of the horde and ally had different values. I picked undead warlock to be a villain, not to betray sylvanas and be a hero forever

We are a collection of every fantasy villain race made; embrace it. The true horde is the wc1-2 horde. Not thralls hippy band of gutless weinies

I feel for you. When i start playing Blood Elf we have quest about burning human holy places with spells like "Seal of Blood" and we used Naaru as lolipop to suck. Then Liadrin goes full fanatical holy crazy in Sunwell and now every player who play BE is "manifestation of the light" and hero of all goodness.

I want my Seal back.