[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Dystemper]

I mean, that's how she always was.

"Your rulers oppress you, I will break the wheel. By becoming your oppressive ruler. If you step out of line, Dracarys."
"I oppose slavery. But now that you've bent the knee, you're mine forever, and you'll like it. Or else, Dracarys."
"My cause is righteous vengeance to undo the wrongs done to me and my family. If you're engaging in righteous vengeance against my wrongs done to you, Dracarys."

And so forth.

But in all if that she never deliberately targeted innocent women, children, old people etc. This time she did. She say women and kids running down streets and targeted them on purpose .

[Endus]

But in all if that she never deliberately targeted innocent women, children, old people etc. This time she did. She say women and kids running down streets and targeted them on purpose .

Except when she did. The leadership of Astapor and the slavers of Meereen. The witch-woman who was seeking to fight back against the Dothraki who had raped and murdered her people. And so on.

Like I said; you're ignoring all the times she did exactly that, because it didn't fit with the image of her you wanted to be true. But it was never true.

[Dystemper]

Except when she did. The leadership of Astapor and the slavers of Meereen. The witch-woman who was seeking to fight back against the Dothraki who had raped and murdered her people. And so on.

Like I said; you're ignoring all the times she did exactly that, because it didn't fit with the image of her you wanted to be true. But it was never true.

But the slavers, the rulers if astapor, the witch were not exactly innocent. Burning the ones who did not bend the knee, yes that was overboard. But she didn't target running and screaming women and kids. She even made a effort to chase them down on Drogon and fry them. They could have had her go mad and end up this way. But the way it was written was to abrupt. Poor writting

[buck008]

gonna have to press (X) to doubt that. DnD worked with the writer, they knew the thought process, the influences, and then completely fell off the rail in direction when they were tasked with holding the mantle of direction for the show. THEY fucked up. THEY ruined the show. THEY are to blame. THEY are responsible, not the execs of HBO. THEY were the ones who are aware of their capacity to emulate George RR Martin. Any critical thinker knows where they stand when taking over the project of someone else, if its writing, business direction, finances, coaching a professional team; any person taking over a major role, should be aware of the shoes being filled. It is sad knowing DnD have openly gone on record as saying they are getting drunk and staying far far away from GoT, because they are more than aware that they fucked up. that they are fucking morons, that they barely filled half of one of those metaphorical shoes.

Again, I think this is just the difference in talking to people that aren't involved in creative anything. The writers here didn't suddenly forget how to write. They weren't leaning on Martin because he flatly wasn't involved as much as people seem to think he was. They were working on an adaptation, not an original piece. Then they ran out of things to adapt. It's easier to interpret from a voice that is not your own than to try to invent things whole cloth. So they defaulted to their own style, and, at the same time, had to do a rush job on it. Even Martin said just recently, that a lot of the beats are the same but they are necessarily different because the adaptation left out or killed certain characters that the book did not. Martin also said that his last two books are like 3000 pages of manuscript and he could add more if he needed to, an option that TV guys don't have. I'm not saying it was well done, I'm saying no one would have done a good job and it's silly to blame the writers.

[Endus]

But the slavers, the rulers if astapor, the witch were not exactly innocent.

See, this is where you make excuses for her.

The people of King's Landing weren't innocent, either. They refused to bend the knee. Exactly what the Tarlys did.

Burning the ones who did not bend the knee, yes that was overboard. But she didn't target running and screaming women and kids. She even made a effort to chase them down on Drogon and fry them. They could have had her go mad and end up this way. But the way it was written was to abrupt. Poor writting

You keep assuming some morality-based position for Daenerys' past actions.

She's threatened to do exactly this, as far back as Season 2. She's threatened those same innocents. At Astapor, she orders the entire ruling class to be killed, men and women alike. She spares the children, but these children are now abandoned, without parents, without wealth or income, in a city filled with freshly-released slaves, none of whom will have any sympathy for their plight, and many of whom will take their past indignities out on the only targets remaining; those same children.

And let's consider the aftermath. After liberating Astapor and establishing a council to rule it, that council is almost immediately overthrown by Cleon the Butcher, who set himself up as an "Emperor". And then shortly after that, Astapor and Yunkai are retaken by slave masters, and the old ways are re-established. At the time, Meereen is still free, but we can likely assume that didn't last long, either.

She was never interested in lasting change in Essos. She was interested in pillage for resources and soldiers to fuel her campaign in Westeros.

[Gorsameth]

Again, I think this is just the difference in talking to people that aren't involved in creative anything. The writers here didn't suddenly forget how to write. They weren't leaning on Martin because he flatly wasn't involved as much as people seem to think he was. They were working on an adaptation, not an original piece. Then they ran out of things to adapt. It's easier to interpret from a voice that is not your own than to try to invent things whole cloth. So they defaulted to their own style, and, at the same time, had to do a rush job on it. Even Martin said just recently, that a lot of the beats are the same but they are necessarily different because the adaptation left out or killed certain characters that the book did not. Martin also said that his last two books are like 3000 pages of manuscript and he could add more if he needed to, an option that TV guys don't have. I'm not saying it was well done, I'm saying no one would have done a good job and it's silly to blame the writers.

When every day a dozen fan replacements hit the internet that are better then the final product? Fuck yes I will blame the writers.

Could they have replicated what GRRM did in the earlier seasons? Probably not, the books are a much more detailed works, a result of being a book rather then a tv show, so without 300 pages to distil from things were always going to be lacking.
But they could have done better then this, so so so much better then this.

I will bring it up again because I find its such a clear example. D&D were confronted with a situation, Jon has killed Dany, and needed to progress from that point to the finale, the election of king Bran.
But there is a problem in the way, a big big problem. A problem several thousand men strong named Dothraki and Unsullied who's Queen, to who'm they are fanatically loyal, just got murdered in cold blood.
How do you solve this problem? By ignoring it completely, never referencing it once and just skipping time ahead a few weeks to the election meeting.

Ignore a problem and pretend it never happened. The single worst tool a writer can use.
No, the writing was simply shit and I would trust any 2 people plucked from this thread to come up with a better storyline for episode 6 when you give them the key points they need to hit along the way.

[Byuiso]

Got, the show that was famous as a masterpiece, And in 6 episodes turned into garbage. I mean the last episode, the script,writing, everything.....I never knew i could feel this much disappointed/sadness from a tv show.

Even the freaking actors are disappointed.

I mean how could it even come to this, did they not have meetings,discussions?debate over anything? how did it come from the writing table to the stamp of approval?
I guess som low level worker did try to argue with the directors and was shutdown. Did they even know there were 7 seasons before s8? nothing makes sense.

Did the success/fame of game of thones go to their heads? Whatever they did nothing could be bad with "the got!!"...

Yes David Benioff, D.B. Weiss, you sure proved that you could create one of the best shows the world had ever seen, "as long you had the books to guide you"...and with no books? yeah you sure showed your full potential. they will alway be remembered as the ones that destroyed game of thrones.

Season 7 and 8 are two peas in a pod. This is when D&D truly decided to rush for the finish line. If I was Disney I would take a step back and look at GoT objectively and ask yourself "They struggled mightily toward the end of the series and it greatly harmed the quality." There was a slight drop in quality once they passed the books but it wasn't drastic. Season 7 was when they decided to sprint for the finish line and never mind the story.

I personally would be worried if I was Disney.

I will always ask myself why HBO did not continue without D&D? Why allow them to do this when clearly they aren't the best writers in the world. They could have gotten with GRRM and brainstormed. Especially when HOB and GRRM wanted 10 full seasons not this outcome.

For a 2 year hiatus and 13 episodes within 3 years they did an extremely poor job. Great cinematography and amazing score both sullied by poor writing. I say poor because episode 1 & 2 were unnecessary. It was essentially the same episode twice, the build up for The Great War.
I believe episode 3 did take all that time but they could've given The Great War episode 2 and 3.

[maulgryve]

See, this is where you make excuses for her.

The people of King's Landing weren't innocent, either. They refused to bend the knee. Exactly what the Tarlys did.



You keep assuming some morality-based position for Daenerys' past actions.

She's threatened to do exactly this, as far back as Season 2. She's threatened those same innocents. At Astapor, she orders the entire ruling class to be killed, men and women alike. She spares the children, but these children are now abandoned, without parents, without wealth or income, in a city filled with freshly-released slaves, none of whom will have any sympathy for their plight, and many of whom will take their past indignities out on the only targets remaining; those same children.

And let's consider the aftermath. After liberating Astapor and establishing a council to rule it, that council is almost immediately overthrown by Cleon the Butcher, who set himself up as an "Emperor". And then shortly after that, Astapor and Yunkai are retaken by slave masters, and the old ways are re-established. At the time, Meereen is still free, but we can likely assume that didn't last long, either.

She was never interested in lasting change in Essos. She was interested in pillage for resources and soldiers to fuel her campaign in Westeros.

The people of King's Landing were not given a choice. They were inside the city walls because a scary lady with a dragon was flying around the countryside ready to roast people. It's not like Dany went around on a political campaign telling the smallfolk about all the good she will do.

[Endus]

The people of King's Landing were not given a choice.

Neither were anyone else she killed. She's not big on asking for people to defend their actions, you'll note.

[buck008]

When every day a dozen fan replacements hit the internet that are better then the final product? Fuck yes I will blame the writers.

Could they have replicated what GRRM did in the earlier seasons? Probably not, the books are a much more detailed works, a result of being a book rather then a tv show, so without 300 pages to distil from things were always going to be lacking.
But they could have done better then this, so so so much better then this.

I will bring it up again because I find its such a clear example. D&D were confronted with a situation, Jon has killed Dany, and needed to progress from that point to the finale, the election of king Bran.
But there is a problem in the way, a big big problem. A problem several thousand men strong named Dothraki and Unsullied who's Queen, to who'm they are fanatically loyal, just got murdered in cold blood.
How do you solve this problem? By ignoring it completely, never referencing it once and just skipping time ahead a few weeks to the election meeting.

Ignore a problem and pretend it never happened. The single worst tool a writer can use.
No, the writing was simply shit and I would trust any 2 people plucked from this thread to come up with a better storyline for episode 6 when you give them the key points they need to hit along the way.

Yeesh. No, the overwhelming majority of the shit that people advertise as being miles better than the crap on TV was utter garbage that I hate myself for wasting my time with. Most people can’t write and that’s fine. We all have different talents. But no, I wehemently disagree that any rando could do better because I’ve read a bunch of randos are they are universally shit. And the ones that are ok are mostly prosaic story summaries or rough outlines. No dialogue, stage direction, any of the shit script writers do. So there’s that.

[Black Goat]

It's just weird that those have been your only posts. There is plenty of reason to think that people who exist in an analogue to a time in which physical ailments were often thought to reflect personal failures would not embrace a king in a wheelchair. Someone earlier cited FDR as an example of a population doing so, but FDR worked extremely hard to hide his disability precisely because a 1930s population would have a hard time accepting a president who couldn't/could barely walk. You're the one making arrogant assumptions.

It's just weird? It's just weird that some of you obsess over post count and how new an account is, as if it's important or pertinent to the discussion.

Tell me, was Bran ever accused of failure for being pushed out of the window by Jaime, the Kingslayer? No. Would the realm sympathize with him, as the Lannisters weren't generally favored from time to time, and the information was well known in the context of the show and novels? Yes. Are those assumptions? No, those points can be demonstrated throughout the show.

Other leaders and their adversity aren't relevant to the point I'm making. This is a GoT discussion, in a GoT thread.

But by all means, defend the person who claimed Bran was autistic. That person really knows their stuff.

[Ihavewaffles]

Is this howland reed?

[Dystemper]

Is this howland reed?

Think so. Wonder what ever happened to his daughter

[Zaktar]

It's just weird? It's just weird that some of you obsess over post count and how new an account is, as if it's important or pertinent to the discussion.

Tell me, was Bran ever accused of failure for being pushed out of the window by Jaime, the Kingslayer? No. Would the realm sympathize with him, as the Lannisters weren't generally favored from time to time, and the information was well known in the context of the show and novels? Yes. Are those assumptions? No, those points can be demonstrated throughout the show.

Other leaders and their adversity aren't relevant to the point I'm making. This is a GoT discussion, in a GoT thread.

But by all means, defend the person who claimed Bran was autistic. That person really knows their stuff.

Who is obsessing? It's a question and an interesting place for you to jump into the conversation for the "first time." Who am I defending? I am disagreeing with you and suggesting that you make unwarranted assumptions.

Understanding historical leaders helps us to understand how human beings make decisions, which is relevant to this series which purported to offer a realistic perspective on the politics of a low fantasy world. Hilarious suggestion that the realm would give a shit about Bran, or that their sympathy would somehow lead to their making an untested, inexperienced child with no claim to the throne their king. Leaving out the fact that he can't walk, and the list of historical rulers who could not walk is not long. I'm trying to find any examples and struggling, though I suspect there must be at least one. Should the ability to walk be relevant to rule? Of course not, it's moronic, but humans =/

I'm not unhappy with the concept, it's a great idea to have Bran as king, the writers just did absolutely nothing to earn it. Tyrion's speech should have been laughed at as hard as Sam's.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

Think so. Wonder what ever happened to his daughter

So yet another North representative to this ridiculous council?

[Dystemper]

Who is obsessing? It's a question and an interesting place for you to jump into the conversation for the "first time." Who am I defending? I am disagreeing with you and suggesting that you make unwarranted assumptions.

Understanding historical leaders helps us to understand how human beings make decisions, which is relevant to this series which purported to offer a realistic perspective on the politics of a low fantasy world. Hilarious suggestion that the realm would give a shit about Bran, or that their sympathy would somehow lead to their making an untested, inexperienced child with no claim to the throne their king. Leaving out the fact that he can't walk, and the list of historical rulers who could not walk is not long. I'm trying to find any examples and struggling, though I suspect there must be at least one. Should the ability to walk be relevant to rule? Of course not, it's moronic, but humans =/

I'm not unhappy with the concept, it's a great idea to have Bran as king, the writers just did absolutely nothing to earn it. Tyrion's speech should have been laughed at as hard as Sam's.

Don't forget to most in the north, they thought Bran was dead and gone. Then suddenly shows up after svfew years and says he us the 3 eyed Raven. The north are supersticious I would bet many still don't trust him. Then you expect the rest of the kingdoms to accept him as king because he has stories. They would have been better off picking Gendry because " As a black Smith he knows what it takes to forge a strong Kingdom her DER her der"

[MikeBogina]

Yeah, its wierd that they really just pushed the trouble of foreign troops in Westeros aside.... Like what about the Dothraki? Are they just roaming the countryside and killing while they talk? O.o

And indeed, i really wanted to see that conversation where Grey Worm agreed to let Jon live. They really skipped something that could have been amazing, about all the lords debating how you deal with a queenslayer and a foreign army in the capital. Also, will the Dornish people really accept a northen king like that? O.o Like, generations of kings tried to get Dorne into the fold and it only works when there is a dornish in the royal family, yet they are alright with letting a cripple from the north, who have no relationship with any lord aside from Sansa, just take the throne? O.o

Yeah, the moment Sansa says the north is staying independent, but Greyjoy and Martell doesn't ask for the same, especially being that they were only loyal to Dany. Dothraki just walking around like nothing is also really stupid.

Just a lot of bullshit that makes no sense

[Independent voter]

That's the thing. Here's Dany's chain of thought;

The world needs saving.
I'm the only one who can save it.
I need to sit the Iron Throne to do so, first.
My people must have a reason to support me completely, or I will face constant questioning and rebellion.
That support must come through either love, or fear.
The people of Westeros do not love me, they reject me.
Thus, to sit the throne, and use it to begin my conquest of the known world, the people of Westeros must fear me.
So I'll burn King's Landing to ashes to show what happens to those who refuse to bend the knee. The rest will fall in line.

She's making a sacrifice to further her greater goal. That "sacrifice" is the innocent lives in King's Landing. It still serves her goals, the same goals she has always had. That she has told people, time and again. They have not changed. Neither has Dany. It's just that, until recently, the people refusing to support her were even worse, so you overlooked her response. You tried to see it as a response to their specific villainy, when it was almost always about refusing to fall in line in support of her cause.

So when presented with targets, like the Tarlys or the people of King's Landing, who aren't overtly villainous, her strategy doesn't change, because it was never about that.


And before you cite times when she claimed it was about that, these kinds of leaders always have inspiring words. Hitler had inspiring, motivating speeches. They were bullshit, and you shouldn't have ever given them the blind faith you did.

This is Dany after the bells ring and King's Landing surrenders. She's raging about what? Millisandre's execution? If she's insane then her actions don't need to be rational. There's no point in discussing them.

If she is sane, it's pure revenge.

She's definitely not making a cool and rational decision. She's not going to come up with a strategy when she's raging.

[Endus]

This is Dany after the bells ring and King's Landing surrenders. She's raging about what? Millisandre's execution? If she's insane then her actions don't need to be rational.

If she is sane, it's pure revenge.

She's definitely not making a cool and rational decision.

Where did I ever claim that Daenerys was "rational"?

I explained her reasoning, which is not the same thing.

[MikeBogina]

Actually who is to say that Bran didnt worg into or influence Dany to burn KL to the ground?

Well this is actually what I believe. We've seen that he's able to actually talk to people(DAD) and he can effect them mentally... but it's never shown again?

Why show Bran has that power, if he's never going to use it? And who would ever know that he's using? Bells ringing, he could have been whispering to her "Burn them all" or even repeating all those memories to her right at the moment.