Everyone in the beta reporting that dungeons are REALLY easy :(

[Fascinate]

Err, live servers do have the option of much more difficult dungeons than anything that was in classic.

Obviously, but lets keep in mind these are lvl 30 dungeons people are running with full blues/bis gear for their level. When classic comes out in a few months and random groups go into strat/scholo/dm there are going to be lots of wipes. Also the streamers we are watching right now are either private server players who have been playing vanilla for a really long time or are highly skilled retail players with many rank 1 glad titles. The overall difficulty of vanilla will not be able to be gauged until full release and we get to see how nubs fare, and i think its going to be fine.

[arkanon]

Err, live servers do have the option of much more difficult dungeons than anything that was in classic.

Just remember, they change it very quickly to "leveling dungeons" to compare like with like, while pretending heroic, mythic, and m+ dont exist at max level. Leveling dungeons in retail are "easy" because they are there for story, and for completing the zone quest. They are not supposed to provide any meaningful challenge. The dungeons in Vanilla however, although often being a part of a bigger story, will mostly not be repeated at all at max level, so their difficulty needs to be relevant at the appropriate level, and that really isn't the case. It is however how it was, and it should be again this time around. Dont know how many times i can say this but if you want challenging content, Vanilla / Classic is NOT for you.

As most have already said, Vanilla dungeons were very easy, with the only challenge coming from a lack of knowledge, lack of experience, time consuming group formation and travel, some maze like dungeons taking a very long time with punishing waits if someone went the wrong way, which often resulted in some kid leaving because "mum said its bed time".

All of this is not an issue - its how it was, its how it should be again - one more time - if you are playing Classic for challenging content, you are going to be very, very disappointed.

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Obviously, but lets keep in mind these are lvl 30 dungeons people are running with full blues/bis gear for their level. When classic comes out in a few months and random groups go into strat/scholo/dm there are going to be lots of wipes. Also the streamers we are watching right now are either private server players who have been playing vanilla for a really long time or are highly skilled retail players with many rank 1 glad titles. The overall difficulty of vanilla will not be able to be gauged until full release and we get to see how nubs fare, and i think its going to be fine.

ABSOLUTE garbage. Only multi rank 1 players are streaming beta? what an absolute load of steaming garbage. And no, we dont have to wait - the game was out 15 years ago, many of us were there, have done it, and dont need to wait to find out that the dungeons are easy. Just excuse after excuse, Multi glad....ffs. what an absolute steaming pile of garbage.

[Fascinate]

Just remember, they change it very quickly to "leveling dungeons" to compare like with like, while pretending heroic, mythic, and m+ dont exist at max level. Leveling dungeons in retail are "easy" because they are there for story, and for completing the zone quest. They are not supposed to provide any meaningful challenge. The dungeons in Vanilla however, although often being a part of a bigger story, will mostly not be repeated at all at max level, so their difficulty needs to be relevant at the appropriate level, and that really isn't the case. It is however how it was, and it should be again this time around. Dont know how many times i can say this but if you want challenging content, Vanilla / Classic is NOT for you.

As most have already said, Vanilla dungeons were very easy, with the only challenge coming from a lack of knowledge, lack of experience, time consuming group formation and travel, some maze like dungeons taking a very long time with punishing waits if someone went the wrong way, which often resulted in some kid leaving because "mum said its bed time".

All of this is not an issue - its how it was, its how it should be again - one more time - if you are playing Classic for challenging content, you are going to be very, very disappointed.

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ABSOLUTE garbage. Only multi rank 1 players are streaming beta? what an absolute load of steaming garbage. And no, we dont have to wait - the game was out 15 years ago, many of us were there, have done it, and dont need to wait to find out that the dungeons are easy. Just excuse after excuse, Multi glad....ffs. what an absolute steaming pile of garbage.

If you are refering to your post history i would agree, you are way too angry of a person to have a reasonable conversation with. Thinking that there aren't going to be new players to classic and how they are going to struggle the same way people did in vanilla is short sighted, many of the streamers on classic beta are multi r1 glads and have the technical foundation that all those new players will not.

[Najnaj]

Classic WAS fucking easy, people were just clueless back then.

IF done right. It sounds like this is a round em up and aoe them down sort of scenario and that was absolutely not vanilla.

[arkanon]

If you are refering to your post history i would agree, you are way too angry of a person to have a reasonable conversation with. Thinking that there aren't going to be new players to classic and how they are going to struggle the same way people did in vanilla is short sighted, many of the streamers on classic beta are multi r1 glads and have the technical foundation that all those new players will not.

name 10. ill wait.

[Fascinate]

name 10. ill wait.

Do you not watch twitch my dude?

Snutz
Sodapoppin
Cdew
Venruki
Pikaboo
Trillebartom
Zico
Sonii
Xaryu
Jellybeans


Thats just off the top of my head.

The skill level of these players is wayyy beyond whats going to be the norm in classic.

[arkanon]

Do you not watch twitch my dude?

Snutz
Sodapoppin
Cdew
Venruki
Pikaboo
Trillebartom
Zico
Sonii
Xaryu
Jellybeans


Thats just off the top of my head.

The skill level of these players is wayyy beyond whats going to be the norm in classic.

Only seen 3 of them streaming at all? Just to stay on topic, and to clear this up - you are argueing that players will find dungeons in Classic challenging, yes? I just want to be very clear about what you are saying. Because you seem to be twisting it to say those 10 ppl are finding it easy because they are "multi glad r1 players". But your claim is that the dungeons are genuinely hard?

[Tojara]

There are three type of people in this thread.

People who say that the dungeon content is easy, but also want the game to do bad, for unknown reasons.

People who think WoW classic dungeons are really hard and that if people are finding them easy, well, they are wrong and the game is possibly bugged.

People who don't care and just enjoy the game for what it is.

I have to ask though, why do people get so defensive when people call 15 year old entry level dungeon content easy? Some people in this thread are literally frothing at the mouth and come to the defense of the game, like the difficulty of dungeons is exclusively why people play it. It's pretty sad to be honest. Here's a big newsflash for everybody. When you play a game, and then play it again, it's usually easier. Whats harder in WoW? Progression or farm? Not saying Vanilla is exclusively farm, but if you've experienced it before, it's going to feel pretty close to that.

PvE content doesn't need to be mega difficult to make it an enjoyable experience. I'm certainly not playing it exclusively because of that, I'm playing because it's fun to play two different versions of the game (Yeah, I like both the live and classic versions of the game, for different reasons).

I'll repeat something I said earlier in this thread too. One of the main reasons dungeons are easy is simply because there's no mystery anymore. The biggest reason dungeons felt challenging when I played 15 years ago wasn't because they were hard, it was because we almost always entered the fucking dungeons way under leveled. Without any prior knowledge, it was super common to be baited into a dungeon at the lower level thresholds, only to get to the last half of the dungeon and realize that the mobs in this part of the dungeon are 4-5 levels higher than you. Anybody that knows how crushing blows, critical strikes, resists, hit chance, dodge/parry and glancing blows can tell you why fighting mobs over 4 levels higher than you is generally a lost cause (Hunters being the only exception). Mob health actually doesn't scale that fast, but boy when you start fighting mobs 4 levels higher it becomes pretty painful.

[Tech614]

Do people really don't remember that wow at that time was the casual version of MMO? I'm still surprised a guy that claims he played vanilla open this type of threats vanilla=time consuming, I bet my paycheck that if they don't do the fights mathematical impossible the raids will fall with crazy speeds

Of course they will. Raid bosses in vanilla usually had less mechanics then dungeon bosses have in retail.

Do you have 40 people(really only for later nax bosses you can underman almost everything else lol)?

Can your install a threat meter?

Can your healers use proper ranks and not OOM?

Can your dps not stand in bad?

Congrats you will clear all content in classic regardless of if your entire raid is players that put up green parses on live.

[Fascinate]

Only seen 3 of them streaming at all? Just to stay on topic, and to clear this up - you are argueing that players will find dungeons in Classic challenging, yes? I just want to be very clear about what you are saying. Because you seem to be twisting it to say those 10 ppl are finding it easy because they are "multi glad r1 players". But your claim is that the dungeons are genuinely hard?

It's a combination of things that is going on here:

1. The baseline of knowledge and skill for most beta testers is well beyond an average level for classic, like multitudes. The amount of things these guys know about vanilla WoW mechanics (especially private server players) trivializes so much about what made vanilla hard in 2004-2006. New players will not have this baseline from years of playing this game.
2. These players are not only veterans and skilled players but are running LEVEL 30 DUNGEONS, in BiS lvl 30 gear lol. You are not going to see this level of gearing with random people leveling in classic.
3. Once you get higher level the dungeons spike in difficulty, strat/scholo/dire maul are going to be very challenging on classic for new players.

The first one really is the main point tho, the sheer amount of things you pick up over time cannot be understated and new players will have none of that....which is a good thing for the experience.

[arkanon]

There are three type of people in this thread.

People who say that the dungeon content is easy, but also want the game to do bad, for unknown reasons.

People who think WoW classic dungeons are really hard and that if people are finding them easy, well, they are wrong and the game is possibly bugged.

People who don't care and just enjoy the game for what it is.

I have to ask though, why do people get so defensive when people call 15 year old entry level dungeon content easy? Some people in this thread are literally frothing at the mouth and come to the defense of the game, like the difficulty of dungeons is exclusively why people play it. It's pretty sad to be honest. Here's a big newsflash for everybody. When you play a game, and then play it again, it's usually easier. Whats harder in WoW? Progression or farm? Not saying Vanilla is exclusively farm, but if you've experienced it before, it's going to feel pretty close to that.

PvE content doesn't need to be mega difficult to make it an enjoyable experience. I'm certainly not playing it exclusively because of that, I'm playing because it's fun to play two different versions of the game (Yeah, I like both the live and classic versions of the game, for different reasons).

Nice bait - suggesting that anyone who says they are easy wants the game to do bad. Many of us accept the dungeons were never hard, but that is totally ok and the game will do fine regardless. Sure, those thinking the game was going to have the equiv of high end M+ keys for dungeons will be pretty let down, but i would like to think they are a tiny minority.

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It's a combination of things that is going on here:

1. The baseline of knowledge and skill for most beta testers is well beyond an average level for classic, like multitudes. The amount of things these guys know about vanilla WoW mechanics (especially private server players) trivializes so much about what made vanilla hard in 2004-2006. New players will not have this baseline from years of playing this game.
2. These players are not only veterans and skilled players but are running LEVEL 30 DUNGEONS, in BiS lvl 30 gear lol. You are not going to see this level of gearing with random people leveling in classic.
3. Once you get higher level the dungeons spike in difficulty, strat/scholo/dire maul are going to be very challenging on classic for new players.

The first one really is the main point tho, the sheer amount of things you pick up over time cannot be understated and new players will have none of that....which is a good thing for the experience.

you didn't answer the question.

[Sting]

Nice bait - suggesting that anyone who says they are easy wants the game to do bad. Many of us accept the dungeons were never hard, but that is totally ok and the game will do fine regardless. Sure, those thinking the game was going to have the equiv of high end M+ keys for dungeons will be pretty let down, but i would like to think they are a tiny minority.

You fall into that third group he was describing.

[Bodonius]

I admit, noone knew what they where doing but at the same time it demanded sheep and less fuck ups and took more time

[arkanon]

You fall into that third group he was describing.

well no, i dont. I do care - i do have expectations based on my previous experience of Vanilla - i expect the dungeons to be simplistic, with almost 0 trash mobs having any mechanics at all, and the same going for many "bosses". I expect the absolute vast majoirty of players to walk straight through 90% of their dungeon runs, with the only exceptions being overexcited tanks (or hunters, lets be honest) grabbing that extra pack when things are going smoothly only to find they have no "oh shit" buttons, limited access to CC, and every second class doesnt have a massive aoe stun to save them. I expect most classes to hav ea 1-2 button "rotation" taking most of the pressure off their performance.

Otherwise it will be smooth sailing for most groups through all this content.

But i dont want the game to fail, i want people to enjoy it, i just want some honesty about difficulty, because even Blizzard is banging their head against a wall wasting time having to constantly explain to "experts" that no, their game isnt bugged, it really just is that easy.

[Tojara]

You fall into that third group he was describing.

Yeah I don't know why he purposely categorized himself in the wrong section LOL.

I don't care that dungeon or raid content will be easy, I expect it to be easy. Apparently you do too. That's also totally okay, I'm still going to enjoy playing it.

[Sting]

well no, i dont. I do care - i do have expectations based on my previous experience of Vanilla - i expect the dungeons to be simplistic, with almost 0 trash mobs having any mechanics at all, and the same going for many "bosses". I expect the absolute vast majoirty of players to walk straight through 90% of their dungeon runs, with the only exceptions being overexcited tanks (or hunters, lets be honest) grabbing that extra pack when things are going smoothly only to find they have no "oh shit" buttons, limited access to CC, and every second class doesnt have a massive aoe stun to save them. I expect most classes to hav ea 1-2 button "rotation" taking most of the pressure off their performance.

Otherwise it will be smooth sailing for most groups through all this content.

But i dont want the game to fail, i want people to enjoy it, i just want some honesty about difficulty, because even Blizzard is banging their head against a wall wasting time having to constantly explain to "experts" that no, their game isnt bugged, it really just is that easy.

I honestly have no idea what to expect, and that's perfectly fine with me. It's been almost 15 years since I played Deadmines and those low level dungeons for the first time. I also do remember some bosses in the later raids like AQ40 or Naxxramas being incredibly difficult. The first phases will probably be a cakewalk though.

[arkanon]

I honestly have no idea what to expect, and that's perfectly fine with me. It's been almost 15 years since I played Deadmines and those low level dungeons for the first time. I also do remember some bosses in the later raids like AQ40 or Naxxramas being incredibly difficult. The first phases will probably be a cakewalk though.

There are absolutely some bosses in RAIDS that will cause inexperienced raids or raids with a decent percentage who lack experience some headaches, no doubts about that. But i really dont expect those players to make up very much of the raiders at all. Mostly logistics, but i really dont see any of that at all in 5mans.

[Bhanzai]

Dungeons are as hard as they were back then. The players aren't as dumb as they were back then, so yes, dungeons are "easy" now. Just like mythic is easy for people who have done it several times over. Classic is old content, not new. Why on earth would anyone think it's hard?

[Nobleshield]

So according to Blizzard's own tests based on people saying elites were hitting less than expected, they found that the average damage was identical. In other words, the private servers were off as usual and people's memory was faulty.

[frapes]

Time consuming yes.
Particularly difficult, no.

However, if people go for equal level or lower level dungeons just because, modern community, well then yes, they are easy. But this is quite stupid because it is trivializing the content and the rewards (and gives shitty xp).

Back in the day it was about reaching the minimum required level to enter, bring your cool buddies and get it done.

Also, lets talk about ST, ZF later, and we ll see if easy or not.

Most difficult dungeons to date, were the TBC heroics pre-nerf, only followed by TBC late normals before kara gear was widely available.