Everyone in the beta reporting that dungeons are REALLY easy :(

[AeneasBK]

You don't go into dungeons in classic for XP, you go there to get loot that will carry you 10 levels while leveling in the world. leveling through dungeons is the absolute slowest you can do, including just grinding mobs.

Not sure what part of my post referenced going there for XP. By your own argument it's better to get the instance done as soon as the quest for the blue reward becomes available, so lvl 14 for DM and lvl 24 I think for Gnomer (as the examples chosen), because the rewards are pretty strong for, like you say, 10 levels or w/e. Those instances can get tricky towards the end if approached at that level, and it is *there* that the only "difficulty" in low level dungeons occurs. Going into a low level dungeon at the "appropriate" (i.e. over levelled judging from dev standards - 20 for DM wtf?) level is a walk in the park in every case. Basically right up until endgame.

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So although there may be some objective metric by which the raids were easier, in practice they were actually rather challenging.

Quite - who had a harder time raiding heroics and then mythics, the dude in the guild of other mythic level players or the mythic level player in the guild of scrubs? Particularly relevant to healing I felt (although not raided since WoD maybe the landscape is far removed).

[Tarx]

It’s better to be easy so we can geared faster and start raiding.

[deniter]

They never were hard, they were simply gear checks since most of your tanks mitigation is just having high enough armor/def stats. Same as your healer, all dependent on gear. The dungeon will be as easy/hard as your group is equipped. Mechanics are non existent.

And that's how the game was designed. You played content to get gear, so you could play higher level content and get gear for even higher level content. The game was never about learning dance moves around the bosses or doing a somersault when the floor turns red under your feet. Classic is not an action game.

[justandulas]

Yes and no. Yes, it’s true mechanic wise live wow has more to deal with than all of vanilla dungeons combined. However, they were more difficult than live in one important aspect...being unforgiving.

Example: in live as a MT I can screw up half a dozen times and we can overcome it. I can forget my cds and I’ll be a ok. It’s way more forgiving, even with more mechanics and dangers.

Classic is more dark souls in a way where it’s firm but fair in its difficulty and there’s not much forgiveness if they screw up you die and wipe

So yes and no. Mechanics wise no, practically yes

[Marston]

Blizzard confirmed the numbers are correct. If I have to choose someone in this argument I kind of have to side with Blizzard even if they are the evil empire. They have an actual database. PS admit to educated guesses. The outdoor mobs to show confirmation that PSers were wrong in the educated guesses, even if they were decent, and usually on the lower end. It might not be a direct answer to elites in 5 mans but it is a pattern that's recognizable at the very least. It gives me comfort enough to project benefit of the doubt and I see no reason to tinfoil hat on the matter. In either case I am happy people reported it for Blizzard to check because thats a good thing. But the matter is pretty much put to rest. Unless we want to enter the realm of conspiracy which I guess you might.

Don't get me wrong, I am on Blizzard's side here.

[Shaetha]

But low level dungeons were easy? We'd wade through wailing caverns killing random shit with voidwalker pet tanks and no proper healers.

BRD hall with the stupid fires might be a bit challenging at low gear levels, and doing the UD Strath gauntlet with only 5 people was a challenge. But if you expected wailing caverns to sodomize you, well you might be expecting too much.

Yo, the lyceum(the room you're talking about) in BRD was super annoying. Far and away the hardest thing in that dungeon. I actually look forward to doing a Dire Maul North tribute run. Though it does remind me that very few items helped mages more than making them a better water cooler before dire maul or raids.

[Qnubi]

Not sure what part of my post referenced going there for XP. By your own argument it's better to get the instance done as soon as the quest for the blue reward becomes available, so lvl 14 for DM and lvl 24 I think for Gnomer (as the examples chosen), because the rewards are pretty strong for, like you say, 10 levels or w/e. Those instances can get tricky towards the end if approached at that level, and it is *there* that the only "difficulty" in low level dungeons occurs. Going into a low level dungeon at the "appropriate" (i.e. over levelled judging from dev standards - 20 for DM wtf?) level is a walk in the park in every case. Basically right up until endgame.

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A blue drop from a dungeon is gonna be relevant regardless if you are at the appropriate level or not. Classic WoW was generally "gear matters" philosophy, some items last you for a very long time. That's why a group of +4 levels and has green mobs is still gonna get relevant rewards. XP is not a relevant reward even if all mobs are yellow-orange, except the Dungeon Quest(s).

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And thats how it should be. Gear should be huge factor. Also retail have lot of mechanics but you can pretty much ignore them all and aoe pull pretty much nonstop.

Live Classic will be vastly different to the BIS lvl 30 characters they have right now in beta. A full green/white equipped tank is gonna get crushed and if the healer is also in DPS gear it's gonna be very tough with lots of CC and most likely some wipes. And yes, I agree that's how it makes sense. There will be a lot of "tanks" and "healers" that just equip a shield and go tank. That's where the difficulty will come from during lvling.

[Orbusg]

Blizzard confirmed the numbers are correct. If I have to choose someone in this argument I kind of have to side with Blizzard even if they are the evil empire. They have an actual database. PS admit to educated guesses. The outdoor mobs to show confirmation that PSers were wrong in the educated guesses, even if they were decent, and usually on the lower end. It might not be a direct answer to elites in 5 mans but it is a pattern that's recognizable at the very least. It gives me comfort enough to project benefit of the doubt and I see no reason to tinfoil hat on the matter. In either case I am happy people reported it for Blizzard to check because thats a good thing. But the matter is pretty much put to rest. Unless we want to enter the realm of conspiracy which I guess you might.

Many pservers apparently made elites/dungeon mobs and bosses deliberately harder too, probably because a lot of people remember them being a lot harder their first time than they really were.

It's easy to forget that everyone was once a noob keyboard turner when you're chest deep in end game raiding.
And some people.... unfortunately never leave that stage.

[deniter]

Blizzard confirmed the numbers are correct. If I have to choose someone in this argument I kind of have to side with Blizzard even if they are the evil empire. They have an actual database. PS admit to educated guesses. The outdoor mobs to show confirmation that PSers were wrong in the educated guesses, even if they were decent, and usually on the lower end. It might not be a direct answer to elites in 5 mans but it is a pattern that's recognizable at the very least. It gives me comfort enough to project benefit of the doubt and I see no reason to tinfoil hat on the matter. In either case I am happy people reported it for Blizzard to check because thats a good thing. But the matter is pretty much put to rest. Unless we want to enter the realm of conspiracy which I guess you might.

I've watched quite a few old vanilla videos on youtube and it really seems the tuning in beta is about right. I believe it looks so easy in beta because those streamers have run every single dungeon and are very well geared, and they overleveled some of the dungeons by 5+ levels. Some of them are terrible players or they are focusing more on streaming, not playing, yet they can recover from severe mistakes without wipe quite often. This also supports my theory of them being just very well geared rather than mobs being too weak.

[Thundering]

Harder than live.

[Qnubi]

I've watched quite a few old vanilla videos on youtube and it really seems the tuning in beta is about right. I believe it looks so easy in beta because those streamers have run every single dungeon and are very well geared, and they overleveled some of the dungeons by 5+ levels. Some of them are terrible players or they are focusing more on streaming, not playing, yet they can recover from severe mistakes without wipe quite often. This also supports my theory of them being just very well geared rather than mobs being too weak.

Gear matters so much in Classic, player skill is maybe 20% of the equation. A well equipped tank just standing in everything, never LOS or never interrupt anything will take significantly less damage than a tank that is doing everything he can but is crappy equipped. That's just how it was. Gear > Skill.

The whole "gear matters" originates from gear being more important than skill.

[AeneasBK]

A blue drop from a dungeon is gonna be relevant regardless if you are at the appropriate level or not. Classic WoW was generally "gear matters" philosophy, some items last you for a very long time. That's why a group of +4 levels and has green mobs is still gonna get relevant rewards. XP is not a relevant reward even if all mobs are yellow-orange, except the Dungeon Quest(s).

Again, you're the only person bringing up the relevance of XP rewards. Stahp.

You just seem to make the argument that you should "level in crap(er) gear until you're way ahead of what the dungeon requires *then* go get the rewards from it", which seems retarded compared to "go get the rewards from it as soon as you are a high enough level to use them" which could result in some tricky situations because you're fighting mobs that are higher level than you. Your tricky situations seem to be "people will be retarded and undergeared therefore it's hard" which is a moot point, yes if you're bad at the game it will be difficult (??).

[Florena]

I don't remember dungeons being hard in vanilla. Granted I played mage maybe my job was just easy. Keep my mob sheeped, dps tank's target, occasionally aoe when it's called for.

But while vanilla dungeons had more use for crowd control I wouldn't really call them 'difficult' compared to today's heroic/mythic dungeons either, not even getting into mythic +.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I've watched quite a few old vanilla videos on youtube and it really seems the tuning in beta is about right. I believe it looks so easy in beta because those streamers have run every single dungeon and are very well geared, and they overleveled some of the dungeons by 5+ levels. Some of them are terrible players or they are focusing more on streaming, not playing, yet they can recover from severe mistakes without wipe quite often. This also supports my theory of them being just very well geared rather than mobs being too weak.

Like I pretty much said in my OG post.

[ChampionChains]

People keep saying nobody knew what they were doing like no videogames existed before WoW. And saying the average age of players was 8-10 LOL. Maybe you were 8 when it launched, but the majority of players had grown up with Warcraft and migrated from other games like EQ, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot, etc when WoW launched.

And yes, vanilla and BC were a lot less braindead than any xpac since. It got dumbed down over the years to cater to the casual crowd. Yes, it was a lot more tedious and time consuming as well. But one bad member in a group could end the whole run. Dungeons on live require no cc, barely require interrupts, cleave and aoe now ignore cc'ed mobs, etc. You can literally 2 man (and in some cases solo) most of the dungeons on live. That shit didn't work in vanilla. Vanilla require rogues to sap and stunlock, mages needed to sheep, hunters needed to trap and off-tank with a pet, same for locks banishing and occasionally off-tanking, etc. Threat actually mattered to tanks. Dispelling and cleansing mattered. None of this matters on live. Rush in, tank automatically holds threat with one thunderclap, everyone cleaves until nothing is standing, pull next pack with near full hp and mana. That's not an exciting evolution of dungeon gameplay compared to classic/TBC. TBC was the best iteration of dungeons in my opinion by a long shot.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Many pservers apparently made elites/dungeon mobs and bosses deliberately harder too, probably because a lot of people remember them being a lot harder their first time than they really were.

It's easy to forget that everyone was once a noob keyboard turner when you're chest deep in end game raiding.
And some people.... unfortunately never leave that stage.

Agreed. Not to mention the people playing are veterans of the game, are playing with at least B tier or above players, and for the most part have been though these places many times themselves. I am sure when it's fully released and any joe is playing it some will wipe and die.

People just put PSers on to high of a pedistal in terms of accuracy. I wont lie, they did a damn good job getting things close with the tools avalialbe. But some people cannot let it go.

[Big Thanks]

People just put PSers on to high of a pedistal in terms of accuracy. I wont lie, they did a damn good job getting things close with the tools avalialbe. But some people cannot let it go.

Arent you just creating a problem out of thin air?
I really dont see people demaning Classic to be like PS's.

I could be wrong...but...really?

Everyone informed knows those servers were 50% guesses, 40% research, 10% to make the game harder.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Arent you just creating a problem out of thin air?
I really dont see people demaning Classic to be like PS's.

I could be wrong...but...really?

Everyone informed knows those servers were 50% guesses, 40% research, 10% to make the game harder.

Just look at the title of this 17 page post. That I only responded to. Looks like air is thicker than you assume it is.

[Big Thanks]

Just look at the title of this 17 page post. That I only responded to. Looks like air is thicker than you assume it is.

People are demanding Classic to be like PS's?????????

Or are people demanding things because they THOUGHT PS's were right?

Its different.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

People are demanding Classic to be like PS's?????????

Or are people demanding things because they THOUGHT PS's were right?

Its different.

I said They used them as the base line comparison. You seem to want to make it out go people ranting it to be like PS. What exactly are you on about with this?