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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    The people of the Horde (or at least enough of a majority) are still behind the war for now, but they've literally never mattered before and are unlikely to matter now. The rebellion is a pretty hush-hush thing as of now, Baine being the only one who openly defied Sylvanas, and the lamba Horde soldier likely has no idea that Saurfang is even still alive let alone what he's been doing. Lor'themar and the rest only joined recently for a covert mission.

    By the time that the rebellion goes loud, however, expect the plot to conspire to make Sylvanas unpalatable to most, likely via Old God corruption or something.
    Sylvanas should execute all of them. They are as unloyal and conniving as Baine and Saurfang.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Throw Anduin in there to (and Jaina).

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by mario710 View Post
    Sylvanas should execute all of them. They are as unloyal and conniving as Baine and Saurfang.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Throw Anduin in there to (and Jaina).
    Don't hold your breath for Blizzard killing literally all of the Horde's leaders except 3, in favor of a character that is already being villain batted to hell and back.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    The bit in regards to 8.2 is not even half of my post though. The rest of it has been about piece of lore that has been in game (well, technically on YouTube) for whooping 6 months and 3 weeks by now.

    Oh, right, since it's technically not in game I guess I can't blame you for knowing about it either, I guess.
    I've only watched it like 30 times. Sometimes I take a minute to build my post as ideas come to me. Sylvanas's paranoia is the only reason this thread is even being proposed. Without it, Thrall would be on his farm, Saurfang would be chilling in a swamp in a similar self-imposed exile....and I don't know what I can say for Baine. At the least, he'd probably still be in jail, but wouldn't have shaken everyone at the meeting after Sylvanas straight up executes Zelling for no good reason. That's kind of paranoia, since she did it to scare the other Horde leaders into subservience.

    "Remember your loyalties."
    -Someone who clearly values the other Horde leaders and respectfully considers their input

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Sylvanas's paranoia is the only reason this thread is even being proposed.
    hardly paranoia when Saurfang joined a rebellion against a reigning warcheif not too long ago

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    At the least, he'd probably still be in jail, but wouldn't have shaken everyone at the meeting after Sylvanas straight up executes Zelling for no good reason. That's kind of paranoia, since she did it to scare the other Horde leaders into subservience.
    he was actively part of the quest chain to free proudmoore.

    Albert Einstein wldnt have gotten just a slap on the wrist for leaking nuclear research to the Japanese
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post

    hardly paranoia when Saurfang joined a rebellion against a reigning warcheif not too long ago

    - - - Updated - - -
    he was actively part of the quest chain to free proudmoore.

    Albert Einstein wldnt have gotten just a slap on the wrist for leaking nuclear research to the Japanese
    -that Sylvanas was also a part of.
    -he didn't confess to anything, unlike Baine. (Also unlike Baine, he didn't kill anyone. He was literally just the ride.)
    -Sylv. could have easily arrested both of them at the same time.

    In every scenario so far Sylvanas had an opportunity to not be evil and things would have gone more smoothly.
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2019-05-22 at 11:12 PM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    I've only watched it like 30 times. Sometimes I take a minute to build my post as ideas come to me. Sylvanas's paranoia is the only reason this thread is even being proposed. Without it, Thrall would be on his farm, Saurfang would be chilling in a swamp in a similar self-imposed exile....and I don't know what I can say for Baine. At the least, he'd probably still be in jail, but wouldn't have shaken everyone at the meeting after Sylvanas straight up executes Zelling for no good reason. That's kind of paranoia, since she did it to scare the other Horde leaders into subservience.
    The reason this thread exists is because the OP pays no attention, as this thread was made after the two recent interviews talking about how Sylvanas has the loyalty of the people and how Horde has had enough of Thrall's (and his clones') worthlessness.

    Also, Thrall already returned from his self-imposed exile once before, and it was to dismantle Kor'kron's lawful martial law over Sen'jin Isles. Like a complete hypocrite playing favorites with his Darkspear buddies no less, given how he himself issued a Kor'kron martial law on Undercity for less. Thrall's self-imposed exiles have a precedent of not being permanent and he has proven himself to be a subversive to the Horde.

    And Saurfang, Baine and Zelling are literal traitors to the current Warchief. On top of that, there's nothing indicating Saurfang was just going to chill in Swamp of Sorrow's mud just after he left Alliance prison with SI:7's support. On top of the other top, he's the one who initiated the fight with the force that was there to apprehend him by refusing to cooperate with Horde's law enforcement, robbing him of any high ground (that he didn't have to begin with).


    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    -that Sylvanas was also a part of.
    And she (and Ji) joined only after Garrosh kicked the unworthy out of his Old Horde redux.


    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    -he didn't confess to anything, unlike Baine. (Also unlike Baine, he didn't kill anyone. He was literally just the ride.)
    It's a good thing then than the loyalist version of the questline exists, where actual Horde players witness Zelling's treason first-hand and report it to the Warchief. In regards to him being just the ride: https://youtu.be/rPrtWSzRyYw?t=106


    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    -Sylv. could have easily arrested both of them at the same time.
    But she was under no obligation to do. Especially since as even Baine himself (I wonder how many times this will need to be repeated in such threads) argued, treason against the Warchief justifies the use of the death penalty. Even when delivered in the manner we've seen in the Dagger in the Dark scenario.


    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    In every scenario so far Sylvanas had an opportunity to not be evil and things would have gone more smoothly.
    Punishing Zelling's treason isn't evil by any stretch of the word. His treason, on the other hand...
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    And Saurfang, Baine and Zelling are literal traitors to the current Warchief. On top of that, there's nothing indicating Saurfang was just going to chill in Swamp of Sorrow's mud just after he left Alliance prison with SI:7's support. On top of the other top, he's the one who initiated the fight with the force that was there to apprehend him by refusing to cooperate with Horde's law enforcement, robbing him of any high ground (that he didn't have to begin with).
    -Yes there is. Who the hell takes the time to build an entire house with a bunkbed if you're just camping there for an afternoon on the way to commit some more treason? He would have been stupid to deny their support in escaping. (and don't bring up the time we tried to break him out, he was still in maximum self-loathing mode of "as long as I'm stuck in here I can't be forced to be complicit in more evil warcrimes.")
    -game wise it's ambiguous. IIRC he says something to the extent of "if you're here to kill me, come at me then." and then the player initiates the fight. I took that to mean the dark rangers started it if the player didn't, but it's left ambiguous, especially on the loyalist route where the player isn't there to witness it.

    What did not happen:
    Saurfang: ...and that's how we're absolutely going to work together to depose Sylvanas now that I've renounced all ties to the Horde!
    Anduin: Good to hear, Saurfang! Down with Sylvanas!
    Dark Rangers: AHA! We have caught you red-handed, Saurfang!
    Anduin: Later, dude! * bubble hearths because he's basically a paladin now *
    Saurfang: Die, Horde scum! For The Alliance! * attacks the dark rangers unprovoked *
    Saurfang: Well, I'm off to go recruit Thrall into the Alliance! I think I'll say this as loudly as possible and leave an obvious trail to intentionally trick Thrall into thinking the dark rangers were after him before I gave them the idea!
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2019-05-22 at 11:34 PM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Iambackagain666 View Post
    Mag'har: They seem to be the only race that really dont know any history or whats going on so there loyalty is still good but if Thrall talks to them.....
    If Thrall were to talk to the Mag´har, they will probably think hes weak and would tell him to GTFO.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    -Yes there is. Who the hell takes the time to build an entire house with a bunkbed if you're just camping there for an afternoon on the way to commit some more treason? He would have been stupid to deny their support in escaping. (and don't bring up the time we tried to break him out, he was still in maximum self-loathing mode of "as long as I'm stuck in here I can't be forced to be complicit in more evil warcrimes.")
    -game wise it's ambiguous. IIRC he says something to the extent of "if you're here to kill me, come at me then." and then the player initiates the fight. I took that to mean the dark rangers started it if the player didn't, but it's left ambiguous, especially on the loyalist route where the player isn't there to witness it.

    What did not happen:
    Saurfang: ...and that's how we're absolutely going to work together to depose Sylvanas now that I've renounced all ties to the Horde!
    Anduin: Good to hear, Saurfang! Down with Sylvanas!
    Dark Rangers: AHA! We have caught you red-handed, Saurfang!
    Anduin: Later, dude! * bubble hearths because he's basically a paladin now *
    Saurfang: Die, Horde scum! For The Alliance! * attacks the dark rangers unprovoked *
    Saurfang: Well, I'm off to go recruit Thrall into the Alliance! I think I'll say this as loudly as possible and leave an obvious trail to intentionally trick Thrall into thinking the dark rangers were after him before I gave them the idea!
    Look, around the time the guy's freedom is solely depending on being freed by the leader of the Alliance. He bitches impotently to said leader about how he intentionally spared his life so that Anduin could defeat Sylvanas and thus by proxy the Horde in what Saurfang believed at the time was a war of extermination. He agrees to work together with him, i.e with the Alliance to do their work in ensuring the Horde loses the war. The Dark Rangers who come to arrest/shoot him for treason are 100% correct in their assessment of his motives and actions. We can argue whether these actions are moral or not, but that's what they factually are.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Look, around the time the guy's freedom is solely depending on being freed by the leader of the Alliance. He bitches impotently to said leader about how he intentionally spared his life so that Anduin could defeat Sylvanas and thus by proxy the Horde in what Saurfang believed at the time was a war of extermination. He agrees to work together with him, i.e with the Alliance to do their work in ensuring the Horde loses the war. The Dark Rangers who come to arrest/shoot him for treason are 100% correct in their assessment of his motives and actions. We can argue whether these actions are moral or not, but that's what they factually are.
    But how can you be certain without Afrasiabi personally carving all of that into your forehead?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    But how can you be certain without Afrasiabi personally carving all of that into your forehead?
    You're right, I'm not entirely sure. I'll need at least two more sadorc cinematics before I fully comprehend.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  12. #52
    On the note of proving "In every scenario so far Sylvanas had an opportunity to not be evil and things would have gone more smoothly."

    Sylvanas: Despite Saurfang's weakness leaving us at a disadvantage, at least it removed Malfurion and Tyrande from the battle. I'll have to keep an eye on him. Still, proceed as planned, let's invade that tree.

    Sylvanas: Perhaps you're right, Baine. Leaving Saurfang alone to face the Alliance was the wrong move. It sounds like Saurfang is being taken prisoner out there. Should we encounter him in the Stockades, we'll take him with us whether he wants to or not. He shouldn't resist, since we haven't done any supervillainous warcrimes that would leave him jaded and self-hating or anything.

    Sylvanas: Baine, you are under arrest. Zelling, you will be taken in for questioning. Your concerns about my plans should have been spoken instead of scheming behind my back. We cannot afford to splinter as victory against the Alliance stands before us. Dismissed.

    Sylvanas: My spies indicate that Thrall was last spotted in Nagrand. Your orders are to recruit him to the Horde once more. We need everyone we can get.
    Saurfang: Of course, Warchief. I trust your judgement. It's not like you've given me any reason not to.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    He agrees to work together with him, i.e with the Alliance to do their work in ensuring the Horde loses the war.


    You could rewatch the cinematic where that doesn't happen.



    Or the 20 minute breakdown where every 5 seconds he pauses to thoroughly analyze the symbolism, implications, and emotional musical direction of every individual shot and action, where that also does not happen.

    Rub my face in it if I'm wrong come the final version of 8.2, but I'm talking about what's in the story now.
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2019-05-23 at 12:07 AM.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Or the 20 minute breakdown where every 5 seconds he pauses to thoroughly analyze the symbolism, implications, and emotional musical direction of every individual shot and action, where that also does not happen.

    Rub my face in it if I'm wrong come the final version of 8.2, but I'm talking about what's in the story now.
    The cinematic states with blinding clarity that he intentionally spared Anduin's life in the vain hope that Anduin will unseat Sylvanas for him.
    Anduin Wrynn: Saurfang... Tell me why you spared my life.
    Varok Saurfang: I hoped... you... would stop her.
    This by default requires the Horde to have lost the battle and tons of Horde to have died. Saurfang's internal monologue where he says that this was now a war of extermination is at the tail end of A Good War.
    This was not a war that would end in a stalemate. Not now. The Alliance and the Horde would both understand that the only choices were victory or death. Lok-tar ogar. Darnassus would not be the last city to burn. The loss of life on both sides would tower over this
    atrocity. And it would all rest on his shoulders. Every moment would be a nightmare.
    He literally can't exit his cell unless Anduin freed him and he can't flee into the swamp for the express purpose of triggering his revolution who's aim is to result in the Horde's defeat without SI:7. Everything he does is contingent on Anduin's support. This is obvious by the most basic logic, such as how if you remove the Alliance from this scenario Saurfang mopes in prison like a whinging bitch, unable to undertake any further action, because the Alliance are both the ones spurring him to act and the ones without whom he can't be freed since he refused to be freed by the Horde earlier.

    Sylvanas has no obligation to be lenient towards the people who've offed several Horde troops by this point to spirit away a Horde asset to the Alliance because Baine felt bad. Executions for treason, which this is, are standard in most states. In those they aren't, it's life imprisonment. She is however still lenient because she sticks Baine in the slammer instead of immediately executing him. People with more brains like Thrall and Garrosh didn't do this, they executed Burx and Krom'gar on the spot.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-05-23 at 12:25 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The cinematic states with blinding clarity that he intentionally spared Anduin's life in the vain hope that Anduin will unseat Sylvanas for him.

    This by default requires the Horde to have lost the battle and tons of Horde to have died. Saurfang's internal monologue where he says that this was now a war of extermination is at the tail end of A Good War.

    He literally can't exit his cell unless Anduin freed him and he can't flee into the swamp for the express purpose of triggering his revolution who's aim is to result in the Horde's defeat without SI:7. Everything he does is contingent on Anduin's support. This is obvious by the most basic logic, such as how if you remove the Alliance from this scenario Saurfang mopes in prison like a whinging bitch, unable to undertake any further action, because the Alliance are both the ones spurring him to act and the ones without whom he can't be freed since he refused to be freed by the Horde earlier.

    Sylvanas has no obligation to be lenient towards the people who've offed several Horde troops by this point to spirit away a Horde asset to the Alliance because Baine felt bad. Executions for treason, which this is, are standard in most states. In those they aren't, it's life imprisonment. She is however still lenient because she sticks Baine in the slammer instead of immediately executing him. People with more brains like Thrall and Garrosh didn't do this, they executed Burx and Krom'gar on the spot.
    I can see what you're connecting: This notion that Saurfang still believes this has to be a war of extermination when he says that, which would require the Horde to be totally destroyed alongside Sylvanas, and saying that remained his position ever since.

    Important context, and I considered it, but you're still wrong. Again, because of the very same cinematic, where he lays out everything in his rant.

    "I have given EVERYTHING for the Horde...and Sylvanas is DESTROYING it. She will destroy everything!"
    "What I WANT is my Horde back."

    He doesn't want the Horde gone. Anduin doesn't either, which Saurfang was forced to conclude. Anduin didn't let him out after any sort of agreement, just stated what he wanted and then had the faith that things would work out, as we've come to expect from Anduin.

  15. #55
    Mag'har are all on board with Sylvanas' style.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    I can see what you're connecting: This notion that Saurfang still believes this has to be a war of extermination when he says that, which would require the Horde to be totally destroyed alongside Sylvanas, and saying that remained his position ever since.

    Important context, and I considered it, but you're still wrong. Again, because of the very same cinematic, where he lays out everything in his rant.

    "I have given EVERYTHING for the Horde...and Sylvanas is DESTROYING it. She will destroy everything!"
    "What I WANT is my Horde back."

    He doesn't want the Horde gone. Anduin doesn't either, which Saurfang was forced to conclude. Anduin didn't let him out after any sort of agreement, just stated what he wanted and then had the faith that things would work out, as we've come to expect from Anduin.
    When Saurfang made that decision, we are not privy to his thoughts. I'll actually accept your point outright to tackle the steelman version of this argument. Suppose Saurfang thought that it wasn't a war of extermination after all, despite nothing having changed to lead him to this conclusion. He'd still have intentionally spared Anduin to allow him to win this battle and hopefully unseat Sylvanas, which would still have required many of the Horde to die for what was basically a crapshoot.

    Saurfang wasn't forced to conclude anything. He already wanted Anduin to win prior to their chat in the cell and enabled the circumstances of his victory by not killing him. The fact that Anduin didn't give him a slip of paper to sign doesn't mean that Saurfang doesn't completely align with Anduin's goals for the Horde when he outright says that he sought Anduin to win. And again, to restate, Saurfang is incapable of taking any action without Anduin setting him loose and then SI:7 covering for him. Your last argument is a pointless one because this is only a relevant point if we're expected to believe that Saurfang would renege on the guy who he whined to about getting his Horde back and who's success he'd already worked to achieve. This isn't the case. We're beat over the head over and over and over again that Saurfang is muh honor incarnate. They come to an accord in that cell. His liberation is his agreement to help Anduin defeat the Horde, much like he initially aimed for the Horde's defeat by sparing him.

    If Saurfang only takes action because of his chat with the Alliance leader, he rebels as the Alliance leader wants him to, he spares the Alliance leader before to make sure the Alliance leader wins and his freedom and thus ability to take any actions at all is at the mercy of the Alliance, then Saurfang is an Alliance patsy, as all his actions are enabled or dependant on the Alliance. On top of this we factually know that Saurfang's opinion is in the minority as of 8.2, so he's effectively imposing his views on an unwilling populace through the idea of and on behalf of the Alliance. You can think that's a good thing and well enough, but that doesn't change the situation itself.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-05-23 at 12:55 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    They come to an accord in that cell. His liberation is his agreement to help Anduin defeat the Horde, much like he initially aimed for the Horde's defeat by sparing him.
    We're at a MUH HONOR impasse. If he went back on his unspoken agreement with Anduin to go live in the swamp rather than immediately get to work undermining Sylvanas, that comes off as dishonorable.

    But, if he DIDN'T go back on this agreement with Anduin, and had every intention of working with Anduin to destroy the Horde, that goes back on his word of saying he wanted to stop Sylvanas from destroying the Horde and thus ensure its long term survival. Rather than betraying Anduin, he would be betraying his remaining pro-Horde loyalties he has professed.
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2019-05-23 at 01:07 AM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    We're at a MUH HONOR impasse. If he went back on his unspoken agreement with Anduin to go live in the swamp rather than immediately get to work undermining Sylvanas, that comes off as dishonorable.

    But, if he DIDN'T go back on his word with Anduin, and had every intention of working with Anduin to destroy the Horde, that goes back on his word of saying he wanted to stop Sylvanas from destroying the Horde and thus ensure its long term survival. Rather than betraying Anduin, he would be betraying his remaining pro-Horde loyalties he has professed.
    I don't think Saurfang intended to actually stick around in that hut. He was already committed to action in the cell once Anduin recruited him to help him defeat Sylvanas. If the Dark Ranger hadn't showed up to try to arrest him he wouldn't have just moped there, the Swamp of Sorrows just happens to be on the way to the Blasted Lands and from there to Nagrand.

    The argument regarding Sylvanas is in any case a semantic one. Whether he viewed it in his own mind as toppling Sylvanas and enabling the Horde's defeat being separate things, in practice they're inseparable. For Anduin to have gotten rid of Sylvanas when Saurfang spared him that would've required the Horde's defeat. In fomenting an uprising, he's also enabling the Horde's defeat at the same time he's getting rid of Sylvanas. Further as already mentioned, Saurfang's beliefs are in no way representative of anyone except the like ten people in the leadership and Memeboi, at least until past 8.2 when her being an old god puppet would go public, which no one present knew and didn't form the basis of the rebellion so even in that regard he's imposing Anduin's views, with which he aligns, onto people who don't want or care in the process of the Horde's defeat.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  19. #59
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    Blizzard keeps dropping hints that the majority support Sylvanas but most of the leaders don't (Besides Geya'rah and Gallywix, the latter of who can be bought).

    Though I doubt it'll matter much in the end. The Horde is always reduced to it's shrinking cast leaders. Hopefully one day that cast will be gone entirely.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    -that Sylvanas was also a part of.
    irrelevant to the fact that Saurfang is likely to do so again with everyone knowing he has a hissy fit with Sylvanas as Warchief

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    -Sylv. could have easily arrested both of them at the same time.
    and?
    Arrest/killing traitors, whats the difference
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

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