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  1. #1

    "Minmax" is not black and white, it's a spectrum.

    tl;dr:

    1. Nobody is forcing you to "minmax". There are tons of casual guilds that will accept anyone just to fill a raid group.

    2. "minmaxing" is not black and white, it is a spectrum. There are various levels of "minmaxing". Not all of them are bad.

    3. There is no "correct" way to play vanilla.

    ---------------

    I constantly see people crying about "wahh elitsts, wahh minmaxers!!" around every Classic forum, usually in topics discussing viability of classes/specs. Every time someone points out that Ret paladins are awful raid DPS, it is met with cries of "REEE ELITIST MINMAXER REEE" and such.

    Uh...there's a big difference between "minmaxing" and "not wanting to bring an awful DPS". There are various levels of "minmaxing", it's not black and white.

    To give some examples of how minmaxing is a spectrum:

    • Kinda minmaxing
    Looking up the best talent spec for your class/role and BIS gear list

    • Decently minmaxing
    Not bringing hybrid DPS to raid, making sure everyone is properly specced

    • Really minmaxing
    Using full consumes on every boss, even farm content, getting DM buffs and world buffs for every farm raid

    • Insane minmaxing
    All healers are Priests or Paladins/Shamans, only 1 druid in the raid for mark of the wild, only 2 warlocks in the raid for curses, only 2 hunters in the raid for tranq, all other DPS are warrior/rogue/mage

    ---------------

    See what I mean? You can "minmax" and still be reasonable with it. "minmaxing" does not automatically mean going to insane lengths of no-fun-allowed. In my experiences on private servers over the past 4 years, most guilds are just "decently" minmaxing. They might have ONE enhancement shaman / ret paladin with Nightfall, but that's about it.

    On top of this, why is it a bad thing to want to play your character to its fullest potential? I don't understand why striving to be the best you can be is now "elitist" and deemed a bad, negative thing. This type of anti-improvement rhetoric tends to be thrown around by people wanting to play awful meme DPS, claiming that ret paladins and elemental shamans and balance druids are good DPS and should be brought to every raid.

    Again, I really don't consider it "elitist" or "minmaxing" to not want a Ret paladin in your raid. It's not just a matter of DPS, but also a matter of utility. Ret just doesn't bring anything that a Holy paladin can't. Same with Enh/Ele Shamans. A Resto Shaman can bring all the same buffs/totems, in addition to Mana Tide which is a huge boon to the other healers. Feral does okay DPS, but also buffs the melee with 3% crit and is an extra brez/innervate as well as an emergency offtank. Shadow Priest at least benefits the warlocks and can still bubble/dispel/emergency heal.

    In vanilla, you have to work as a raid/guild to clear the content, and as such, you should consider what is best for the raid group as a whole, not what is best for yourself. Shadow Priest at least benefits the warlocks and can still bubble/dispel/emergency heal, and Feral druids can do some decent DPS and also offtank, but Ret/Enh/Ele/Balance just can't really do enough DPS to justify their raid spot. Your only hope for raiding as Ret/Enh is to get a Nightfall and find a casual guild.

    And I know, a common response is going to be:

    "but vanilla raids are so easy, you don't need to have max DPS! a couple ret paladins won't hurt you!"

    Probably true, but the point is that by bringing a ret paladin, you are consciously choosing to bring a DPS that's going to do less than half the DPS of a warrior/rogue/mage/warlock, while bringing nothing to the raid that a holy paladin can't. If you're struggling to fill your raid, sure, a ret paladin won't hurt you, but if the choice is between a ret and a warrior/rogue/mage/warlock, there's really no reason to choose the ret, if all other variables are equal. Also, once you're in AQ40/Naxx, you're really going to want as much DPS as you can get. Having bad hybrid DPS is only going to make things harder.

    Just tired of people throwing around "minmaxer" as some kind of derogatory term, implying that people who strive to improve themselves and play to their fullest potential are wrong and bad.
    Last edited by anon5123; 2019-05-23 at 07:22 PM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    2. "minmaxing" is not black and white, it is a spectrum. There are various levels of "minmaxing". Not all of them are bad.
    Not really. Minima and maxima are extremes by definition, and minmaxing is an attempt to reach them. The spectrum is in how successfull people are at actually doing it, but the whole point is about reaching extremes.

    Agreed on the rest though. Minmaxing is actually highly unnecessary in Classic, and people were terrible at it in Vanilla.

  3. #3
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    When you see a BiS list for some spec that's not a spectrum.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  4. #4
    Two things:

    1. Most raids will be able to accept basically anything. 40 people is an entire fuckload, and it will be difficult to fill if you're very selective at all, and the first few raids you were able to carry a couple 20 potatoes.

    2. No one but the world first race is truly minmaxing. Everyone else is just playing at it.

  5. #5
    Mechagnome Krekal's Avatar
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    Is there somewhere I can see how well each spec does in dps? I was going to play shadow but I heard you have to farm every single consumable to stay relevant which was offputting... thinking about hunter or mage now.
    im cool pls respodn

  6. #6
    There's only one spectrum in this thread and it isn't minmaxing.
    You're not to think you are anything special. You're not to think you are as good as we are. You're not to think you are smarter than we are. You're not to convince yourself that you are better than we are. You're not to think you know more than we do. You're not to think you are more important than we are. You're not to think you are good at anything. You're not to laugh at us. You're not to think anyone cares about you. You're not to think you can teach us anything.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    When you see a BiS list for some spec that's not a spectrum.
    I never said "BIS list is a spectrum"

    Using / not using a BIS list, is part of the spectrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krekal View Post
    Is there somewhere I can see how well each spec does in dps? I was going to play shadow but I heard you have to farm every single consumable to stay relevant which was offputting... thinking about hunter or mage now.
    Spriest is not there to do DPS, you're just there to apply Shadow Weaving for the warlocks. Even if you go full tryhard with consumes (which involves farming lots of dark runes and potions because your mana usage is fucking awful), you'll still get smoked by mages/warlocks on meters.

    Also, each raid only needs one(1) shadow priest, so finding a guild can be kinda tough.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Not really. Minima and maxima are extremes by definition, and minmaxing is an attempt to reach them. The spectrum is in how successfull people are at actually doing it, but the whole point is about reaching extremes.

    Agreed on the rest though. Minmaxing is actually highly unnecessary in Classic, and people were terrible at it in Vanilla.
    Except that's the point this thread is trying to make lol. There's a spectrum by having the choice of doing it "till a certain point", sort of.

  9. #9
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    I never said "BIS list is a spectrum"

    Using / not using a BIS list, is part of the spectrum.
    But BiS lists are tools to achieve min/max definitions for a spec.

    By definition min/max is not really a spectrum. If you're not going for min/max values, you're not min/maxing.

    I understand what you're saying. I agree that the smarter way to play is to set a goal for your character that meets your needs and work to achieve that. That's not min/maxing either except in one special case: the case where you do everything you can to maximize strengths and minimize everything else.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  10. #10
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    If you're not min/maxing then you're not min/maxing. It's not a spectrum - you either go 100% all out or you're not doing it.

    The trouble is that people think that paying attention to certain things but not others still counts as partially min/maxing, when by definition you cannot partially min/max.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  11. #11
    I am Murloc! Sting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrinningMan View Post
    There's only one spectrum in this thread and it isn't minmaxing.
    Heh, I was thinking the same
    ( ° ͜ʖ͡°)╭∩╮

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    The fun factor would go up 1000x if WQs existed in vanilla

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    by definition you cannot partially min/max.
    It's like the expression "almost certain"
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Posting here is primarily a way to strengthen your own viewpoint against common counter-arguments.

  13. #13
    Immortal Nnyco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    I never said "BIS list is a spectrum"

    Using / not using a BIS list, is part of the spectrum.
    You use bis list or you dont, theres nothin in between like some people who be like "i just farm the cape and nothin else".
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  14. #14
    Min/max is not a spectrum

    Your spec is 100% effective with X set up
    There is no Y

    BiS and the correct talent set up are your min/max set up along with a rotation or priority.

    In vanilla it was pretty important

    Technically min/maxing your raid in vanilla had a minimal effect since you could clear MC with half a raid afk
    Last edited by Revamp Man; 2019-05-23 at 09:51 PM.

  15. #15
    Raid progress is also a spectrum, you can find your home anywhere between MC and Naxx.

  16. #16
    I don't think you understand how Mathematics work.

    The reason we have BiS lists, best raid setups and other such knowledge is because some kind soul took it upon themselves to do all the number crunching to get use those values. When you reduce the problem to an equation there can be only one answer. You're either at the theoretical max, or you're not. There's no "spectrum" of correct answers.

    That being said, the main thrust of your thread was "Hybrid DPS aren't welcome in raids unless the alternative is an empty spot or you're in a casual guild". You've simply taken a very long winded method of stating your point. If you wanted to start (another) discussion about that, why not lead with it? There's really no need to bring Minmaxing into the argument at all.

  17. #17
    It seems to me that the content will be easy enough, especially early since we have 1.12 with 16 debuff slots and new talents, that if you min-max at all you'll absolutely crush the content and do stuff like kill Ragnaros before he even submerges.

    Therefore if you want to have fun with the content at all you don't want to min-max at all. I remember in vanilla in guilds I was in basically no one flasked until Loatheb. Using flasks in Molten Core? Ridiculous.
    Last edited by Nitros14; 2019-05-23 at 10:23 PM.

  18. #18
    I think what you mean is performance optimisation is a spectrum,"min-max" is loosely used but it's pretty clear in what it actually means from a literal point of view (which is not a spectrum). In an ideal world you could rely on people to understand your point of view but a lot of people will just turn it into semantics.

    The discussion of Naxx has already been raised, but the kind of people getting upset over Ret paladins being left out because they are completely useless are not going to be raiding Naxx to begin with.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  19. #19
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrinningMan View Post
    There's only one spectrum in this thread and it isn't minmaxing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sting View Post
    Heh, I was thinking the same
    Don't go there.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  20. #20
    This thread needed to exist

    You want to know what will be my "minmax" of Classic WoW?

    1) Get one complete tier set (still dont know wich one)
    2) Get both fist weapons from Zul Gurub
    3) Find a PvP spec to accommodate both my fist weapons
    4) Spam PvP activities

    4)I have zero intentions of raiding AQ or Naxx

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