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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Garrosh is more competent than Sylvanas in his stint as Warchief on all fields except PR, I think that's pretty much inarguable. Garrosh was winning until 5.3, had an actually understandable goal and motive and had said motive presented to us from the start from an out of story view instead of stringing us along to reveal nothing. When Garrosh had a leader assassinated he ensured he'd be isolated in a cave, checked his capacity to betray him and then set people with a weapon specific to him to kill him. He also did so on grounds that even Baine was unable to argue against. Sylvanas sent two morons where an entire battalion failed on a guy uninvolved in anything for no reason.
    Most of Horde's victories in the previous faction war come from Sylvanas though. Garrosh spent most of his time locked in an eternal stalemate in Ashenvale, where he fucked around without making any significant progress in three years (whereas Sylvanas steamrolled it in an afternoon). So he pulled a Vol'jin, with Ashenvale being his Zalazane. Garrosh's personal achievements of note are Theramore campaign and him fucking up the Alliance fleet after Theramore. And he managed to lose both of the things that allowed him to achieve those things (i.e. the Focusing Iris and the krakens) almost instantly.
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  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Most of Horde's victories in the previous faction war come from Sylvanas though. Garrosh spent most of his time locked in an eternal stalemate in Ashenvale, where he fucked around without making any significant progress in three years (whereas Sylvanas steamrolled it in an afternoon). So he pulled a Vol'jin, with Ashenvale being his Zalazane. Garrosh's personal achievements of note are Theramore campaign and him fucking up the Alliance fleet after Theramore. And he managed to lose both of the things that allowed him to achieve those things (i.e. the Focusing Iris and the krakens) almost instantly.
    Yeah, there's a reason I kept it to their tenures as Warchief. Prior to her BFA-induced addiction to stupid pills, Sylvanas was fairly successful.

    Garrosh did end up nabbing Azshara, not that it was very difficult and half of Ashenvale, being defeated only because of Varian's hitherto unmentioned god powers, but yeah, his main successes are after Cataclysm in retaking the Barrens and expelling the Alliance from Dustwallow, then took out much of their fleet. When he was foiled it wasn't because of circumstances he'd set up. Garrosh did send people to collect the Focusing Iris from the remains of Theramore after it was deployed, he just got foiled because Rhonin saved Jaina.

    Why was Rhonin even there though? Not because of Garrosh, but because his entire support there consisted of either rebels or outright saboteurs. Garrosh had no means of preventing Aethas from voting counter to the Horde's interest to have the Kirin Tor support Theramore and even planned for this eventuality. If Aethas hadn't done this, no Rhonin, no Rhonin means no Jaina surviving the mana bomb which means those guys could've calmly picked up the Iris. Even then, it's a logical assumption to make that the bomb would've killed everyone. He couldn't have known about the true potential of humans.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-05-24 at 11:19 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Fully claiming Azshara, Stonetalon, reversing all Alliance gains in the Barrens, Theramore, gaining allies close to alliance lands with the Blackrock and the Dragonmaw. And all the fights Garrosh fought, he did against the Alliance fully opposing him. Sylvanas won a pyrrhic victory in Gilneas (she never actually held the land or its ports which was the entire point of the campaign) against the remnants of a human state completely devastated by a magical disease and the Cataclysm, got killed by a rebellion and almost lost Arathi where she had a massive advantage if not for the adventurer.
    He didn't fully claim Azshara, Alliance continued to fight there and agreed to fuck off only after Garrosh was defeated, with the agreement being made with Vol'jin's Horde. Alliance questline in Stonetalon continues past the bombing of the Druid school and there's been no mention anywhere it was ever fully claimed by the Horde. He didn't reverse Alliance gains in the Barrens as they still control Honor's Stand to this day (it's even mentioned in one of the mission table's missions). Besides, going through Barrens was part of the Theramore campaign so this isn't a counterargument to what I said. Neither the Dragonmaw nor Blackrocks achieved anything of note against the Alliance in their local areas. And Sylvanas' additions to the Horde completely dwarf what Garrosh has recruited.

    Also, Forsaken ultimately won in Gilneas before Cataclysm's end, UVG states it was abandoned, meaning Alliance ultimately withdrew. And Genn talked about how his homeland is filled by the Forsaken at some point in BtS. Also, Sylvanas fought against the Seventh Legion and won. She also fought against Stormpikes and Stormwind's expedition to WPL. Sylvanas didn't even personally go against Arathi and it was conquered in her name by a Forsaken expedition fitting in one tent.


    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Garrosh did end up nabbing Azshara, not that it was very difficult and half of Ashenvale, being defeated only because of Varian's hitherto unmentioned god powers, but yeah, his main successes are after Cataclysm in retaking the Barrens and expelling the Alliance from Dustwallow, then took out much of their fleet. When he was foiled it wasn'tWhy was Rhonin even there though? Not because of Garrosh, but because his entire support there consisted of either rebels or outright saboteurs. Garrosh had no means of preventing Aethas from voting counter to the Horde's interest to have the Kirin Tor support Theramore and even planned for this eventuality. If Aethas hadn't done this, no Rhonin, no Rhonin means no Jaina surviving the mana bomb which means those guys could've calmly picked up the Iris. Even then, it's a logical assumption to make that the bomb would've killed everyone. He couldn't have known about the true potential of humans.
    Azshara was ceded to the Horde only at the end of MoP when Garrosh was kissing the floor. And you're wrong about the potential of humans. Stormwind became a global superpower after being flattened three times (twice by complete jokes) in less than a century, under the reigns of three consecutive kings. Human potential should be obvious to anyone in-story, not just to the players.
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  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    He didn't fully claim Azshara, Alliance continued to fight there and agreed to fuck off only after Garrosh was defeated, with the agreement being made with Vol'jin's Horde. Alliance questline in Stonetalon continues past the bombing of the Druid school and there's been no mention anywhere it was ever fully claimed by the Horde. He didn't reverse Alliance gains in the Barrens as they still control Honor's Stand to this day (it's even mentioned in one of the mission table's missions). Besides, going through Barrens was part of the Theramore campaign so this isn't a counterargument to what I said. Neither the Dragonmaw nor Blackrocks achieved anything of note against the Alliance in their local areas.
    The Alliance did contest Azshara but they lost in the questing. They just surrendered their political claim to it after the end of the war. Their factual claim on it had ended already. The mission table quests are largely non-canon, given that everything that they state about Darkshore is contradicted by the actual warfront which has the Horde exercise factual control over all of it until Tyrande returns, it's full of dead npcs who've been cleared in Cataclysm coming back to life and was pretty clearly done by an intern glancing over the names of relevant areas from a flying mount. See also Teldrassil Evacuation considering all evacuation was by portal and everyone still in the tree was torched alive.

    UVG is (sadly) non-canon from recent blizz statements. That said yeah, I think the current canon version is that the Forsaken hold it, given that Genn mentions the dead rule his kingdom in BTS and Rastakhan taunts him over it. Yet another point as regards the mission tables being non-canon since armies stem from there in there. No disagreement on the rest of Sylvanas' record though, and it should be noted that she did won conventionally in Silverpine in the questing, it's just her forces in Gilneas that got taken out. She was beating Crowley conventionally by the time she extracted his surrender, she just forced the terms on him to prevent guerilla fighting and splinter him from the Bloodfang.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Alliance did contest Azshara but they lost in the questing. They just surrendered their political claim to it after the end of the war. Their factual claim on it had ended already. The mission table quests are largely non-canon, given that everything that they state about Darkshore is contradicted by the actual warfront which has the Horde exercise factual control over all of it until Tyrande returns, it's full of dead npcs who've been cleared in Cataclysm coming back to life and was pretty clearly done by an intern glancing over the names of relevant areas from a flying mount. See also Teldrassil Evacuation considering all evacuation was by portal and everyone still in the tree was torched alive.
    Hmm, I do recall fighting continuing on Alliance side, but maybe I'm projecting Ashenvale. As for mission table, I know they are wonky to say the least, but in this case that's irrelevant. Honor's Stand isn't mentioned among in Tides of War among Alliance outposts conquered on Horde's way to Theramore. Only Fort Triumph and Northwatch are. And given how we learn about that when Baine betrays the Horde and informs Theramore about it, we can be sure he got all Alliance outposts conquered by the Horde. Had he failed to divulge all of the relevant information to his human masters, he'd have committed sudoku. Yet he's still alive.


    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    UVG is (sadly) non-canon from recent blizz statements. That said yeah, I think the current canon version is that the Forsaken hold it, given that Genn mentions the dead rule his kingdom in BTS and Rastakhan taunts him over it. Yet another point as regards the mission tables being non-canon since armies stem from there in there. No disagreement on the rest of Sylvanas' record though, and it should be noted that she did won conventionally in Silverpine in the questing, it's just her forces in Gilneas that got taken out. She was beating Crowley conventionally by the time she extracted his surrender, she just forced the terms on him to prevent guerilla fighting and splinter him from the Bloodfang.
    Can you post a link? Wowpedia mentions nothing about that. But UVG canon status aside, its statements were already corroborated by Cata content that came after it. In 4.3 Gilneas city is controlled by Worgen under Black Dragonflight's influence with Alliance forces nowhere in sight. Then there's Forsaken naval blockade lasting since Cata to Legion. Then there's BtS. And yes, you're right about Silverpine. Also something to add is that the Seventh Legion is largely among the forces defeated through those conventional means prior to giving Crowley the ultimatum. And then, shortly prior to the ultimatum, Crowley's own forces are easily pushed to the Greymane Wall.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2019-05-24 at 12:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
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  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Hmm, I do recall fighting continuing on Alliance side, but maybe I'm projecting Ashenvale. As for mission table, I know they are wonky to say the least, but in this case that's irrelevant. Honor's Stand isn't mentioned among in Tides of War among Alliance outposts conquered on Horde's way to Theramore. Only Fort Triumph and Northwatch are. And given how we learn about that when Baine betrays the Horde and informs Theramore about it, we can be sure he got all Alliance outposts conquered by the Horde. Had he failed to divulge all of the relevant information to his human masters, he'd have committed sudoku. Yet he's still alive.
    It's probably that. There's no Azshara stuff Ally-side, and them giving it up at the end of SoO is mostly just an admission of what was already reality, one they lose nothing out of since the land wasn't theirs in the first place and they got to keep all of Ashenvale. It does look like Honor's Stand stays ally-side, but the rest of the outposts in the area get steamrolled and/or become impossible to maintain when Theramore is taken out of the picture, so it's still in practice the securing of the Barrens after the Horde lost large portions in Cataclysm.

    I could hold Garry not just having Aethas offed against him, but both he and Sylvanas are guilty of letting obvious enemy patsies like Aethas and Baine hang around.

    Can you post a link? Wowpedia mentions nothing about that. But UVG canon status aside, its statements were already corroborated by Cata content that came after it. In 4.3 Gilneas city is controlled by Worgen under Black Dragonflight's influence with Alliance forces nowhere in sight. Then there's Forsaken naval blockade lasting since Cata to Legion. Then there's BtS. And yes, you're right about Silverpine. Also something to add is that the Seventh Legion is largely among the forces defeated through those conventional means prior to giving Crowley the ultimatum. And then, shortly prior to the ultimatum, Crowley's own forces are easily pushed to the Greymane Wall.
    I was sure it was on wowpedia, but in retrospect I may have been conflating a lot of things in it as being non-canon as the whole book being non-canon. I can't find any source on Blizz taking any stance or another, but it's in any case overwritten by Chronicle which sidesteps this issue and BTS, which sets up Gilneas as either abandoned or Forsaken occupied depending on how you interpret the comment about it being 'filled with the dead'. Hopefully this gets cleared up in the upcoming worgen heritage armor. Having an entire part of the world in limbo is a bit of an annoyance. Can you toss me the source for the naval blockade?
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It does look like Honor's Stand stays ally-side, but the rest of the outposts in the area get steamrolled and/or become impossible to maintain when Theramore is taken out of the picture, so it's still in practice the securing of the Barrens after the Horde lost large portions in Cataclysm.
    Alliance recaptures Northwatch already at the end of Tides of War though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I could hold Garry not just having Aethas offed against him, but both he and Sylvanas are guilty of letting obvious enemy patsies like Aethas and Baine hang around.
    True. It's one of the biggest flaws of "super amazing Horde civil war" storylines. I.e. that the "right" Horde members face no repercussions for their actions from the "wrong" ones even when those actions are taken long before there's an actual civil war and the "right" ones are protected by armies loyal to them and there's no reason for the "wrong" ones not to punish them. To think of it, this would fall under plot armor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I was sure it was on wowpedia, but in retrospect I may have been conflating a lot of things in it as being non-canon as the whole book being non-canon. I can't find any source on Blizz taking any stance or another, but it's in any case overwritten by Chronicle which sidesteps this issue and BTS, which sets up Gilneas as either abandoned or Forsaken occupied depending on how you interpret the comment about it being 'filled with the dead'. Hopefully this gets cleared up in the upcoming worgen heritage armor. Having an entire part of the world in limbo is a bit of an annoyance. Can you toss me the source for the naval blockade?
    Just happened to have my copy of Before the Storm on the relevant page from my last browsing. At the start of chapter 28, when the Alliance arrives at Stromgarde and Gathering is about to start, Genn tells Anduin that Gilneas is home to "them" while pointing at Thoradin's Wall, where Sylvanas and the rest of the Forsaken are stationed. As for the blockade, I can't seem to find it right now. It was at the start of Legion, on how the Forsaken fleet was sent to fight the Legion and as such was pulled from its blockade. Though I think it was of the entire Lordaeron and not just Gilneas. Maybe @Friendlyimmolation will recall the specific quest.
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  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Alliance recaptures Northwatch already at the end of Tides of War though.




    True. It's one of the biggest flaws of "super amazing Horde civil war" storylines. I.e. that the "right" Horde members face no repercussions for their actions from the "wrong" ones even when those actions are taken long before there's an actual civil war and the "right" ones are protected by armies loyal to them and there's no reason for the "wrong" ones not to punish them. To think of it, this would fall under plot armor.




    Just happened to have my copy of Before the Storm on the relevant page from my last browsing. At the start of chapter 28, when the Alliance arrives at Stromgarde and Gathering is about to start, Genn tells Anduin that Gilneas is home to "them" while pointing at Thoradin's Wall, where Sylvanas and the rest of the Forsaken are stationed. As for the blockade, I can't seem to find it right now. It was at the start of Legion, on how the Forsaken fleet was sent to fight the Legion and as such was pulled from its blockade. Though I think it was of the entire Lordaeron and not just Gilneas. Maybe @Friendlyimmolation will recall the specific quest.
    Not necessarily.

  9. #109
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post



    Just happened to have my copy of Before the Storm on the relevant page from my last browsing. At the start of chapter 28, when the Alliance arrives at Stromgarde and Gathering is about to start, Genn tells Anduin that Gilneas is home to "them" while pointing at Thoradin's Wall, where Sylvanas and the rest of the Forsaken are stationed. As for the blockade, I can't seem to find it right now. It was at the start of Legion, on how the Forsaken fleet was sent to fight the Legion and as such was pulled from its blockade. Though I think it was of the entire Lordaeron and not just Gilneas. Maybe @Friendlyimmolation will recall the specific quest.
    By the time of the end of the Argus Campaign, the kingdom was referred to as fallen, with nothing but "wind, sorrow and ruin" in the land.[28] When Genn arrived at Stromgarde Keep before the events of the Gathering, he told Anduin that both kingdoms were now in ruins, with Gilneas being home to the Forsaken and Stromgarde being overrun with criminals, ogres, and trolls.[29]


    ^ Before the Storm, chapter 28


    Edit, misread what you wanted. I'll look for the quest.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mario710 View Post
    Not necessarily.
    What a brilliant argument.
    Last edited by Friendlyimmolation; 2019-05-24 at 02:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    By the time of the end of the Argus Campaign, the kingdom was referred to as fallen, with nothing but "wind, sorrow and ruin" in the land.[28] When Genn arrived at Stromgarde Keep before the events of the Gathering, he told Anduin that both kingdoms were now in ruins, with Gilneas being home to the Forsaken and Stromgarde being overrun with criminals, ogres, and trolls.[29]


    ^ Before the Storm, chapter 28

    - - - Updated - - -



    What a brilliant argument.

    What is your source? In-game Genn is still titled King of Gilneas. As far as we know, in-game is canon and the books are non-canon until they enter in-game. That sourced quote is cherry-picked and inaccurate.

  11. #111
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mario710 View Post
    What is your source? In-game Genn is still titled King of Gilneas. As far as we know, in-game is canon and the books are non-canon until they enter in-game. That sourced quote is cherry-picked and inaccurate.
    The source is the book which is canon. The fact that you either deny canon or simply didn't know that these books are canon doesn't matter.

    The only thing inaccurate here is your grasp on lore.

    just in case that was genuine confusion and lack of understanding on your part and not denial.

    Before the Storm is a novel written by Christie Golden taking place after the events of Shadows of Argus but before the Burning of Teldrassil. It serves as the lead-in novel for Battle for Azeroth and focuses on Anduin Wrynn and his role of High King of the Alliance,[1] and Sylvanas Windrunner.

    It is available as an audiobook and ebook.



    And Bonus so you never make this mistake ever again.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Novels
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by mario710 View Post
    What is your source? In-game Genn is still titled King of Gilneas. As far as we know, in-game is canon and the books are non-canon until they enter in-game. That sourced quote is cherry-picked and inaccurate.
    You are wrong.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Alliance recaptures Northwatch already at the end of Tides of War though.
    That's true, but I don't think it diminishes Garrosh's success all that much. It's isolated from everything else in the area and it's coupled with the destruction of the fleet, which if Blizzard didn't immediately forget about this when making the expansion would mean it'd be unable to supply itself and be surrounded by hostiles.

    To think of it, this would fall under plot armor.
    It is plot armor. Sylvanas sends only two rogues to kill Thrall because they must fail. She doesn't send Nathanos and a whole squad of dark rangers to execute Saurfang immediately but instead one ranger and some henchmen because they have to fail. She doesn't execute Baine not because she has a (stupid) plan, but because if she killed Baine like she did Zelling for the same crime he'd be unable to become Peacechief at the end of this. It's why I don't hold these things too much against the characters since they're effectively trapped by the needs of the plot.
    @Friendlyimmolation

    Cheers on the source. In that case we can assume that as far as Blizzard are concerned Gilneas is currently Forsaken held and this'll likely be a plot point in the worgen heritage questline, unless it's like the tauren one and it's about Liam's son telling Genn to forgive all Forsaken or the dwarf one and it's about Genn finding the secret overcoat of his forefathers.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    That's true, but I don't think it diminishes Garrosh's success all that much. It's isolated from everything else in the area and it's coupled with the destruction of the fleet, which if Blizzard didn't immediately forget about this when making the expansion would mean it'd be unable to supply itself and be surrounded by hostiles.


    It is plot armor. Sylvanas sends only two rogues to kill Thrall because they must fail. She doesn't send Nathanos and a whole squad of dark rangers to execute Saurfang immediately but instead one ranger and some henchmen because they have to fail. She doesn't execute Baine not because she has a (stupid) plan, but because if she killed Baine like she did Zelling for the same crime he'd be unable to become Peacechief at the end of this. It's why I don't hold these things too much against the characters since they're effectively trapped by the needs of the plot.
    @Friendlyimmolation

    Cheers on the source. In that case we can assume that as far as Blizzard are concerned Gilneas is currently Forsaken held and this'll likely be a plot point in the worgen heritage questline, unless it's like the tauren one and it's about Liam's son telling Genn to forgive all Forsaken or the dwarf one and it's about Genn finding the secret overcoat of his forefathers.
    Or if it is like the Blood Elf one and consists on Gilnean remembering the loss of their homeland for the 144th time.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by MatthiasVonTzeskagrad View Post
    Or if it is like the Blood Elf one and consists on Gilnean remembering the loss of their homeland for the 144th time.
    Still better than the Forsaken heritage armor quest in next expansion that will be all about atonement for ever serving under Sylvanas and seeking Calia's forgiveness.
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    It would be the cheapest cop out ever made. A justification to the Lich Queens plans to end all life. Blizzard might as well end the game if that comes to pass cause noone would continue after that.
    Well, they already did pretty much that with Starcraft... And there is a distinct possibility of Sylvanas getting the Kerrigan treatment. I still hope though that writers won't be that moronic /pray
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Still better than the Forsaken heritage armor quest in next expansion that will be all about atonement for ever serving under Sylvanas and seeking Calia's forgiveness.
    You bet it will.
    And for some reason, armor will still look creepy to try and compensate, tho.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Well, they already did pretty much that with Starcraft... And there is a distinct possibility of Sylvanas getting the Kerrigan treatment. I still hope though that writers won't be that moronic /pray
    Kerrigan though has been built up for this redemption since her actions were influenced by Amon. In this case Sylvannas's actions are her own and she is too much deep now for redemption. Anything they do will simply end in disaster for the game.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    Kerrigan though has been built up for this redemption since her actions were influenced by Amon. In this case Sylvannas's actions are her own and she is too much deep now for redemption. Anything they do will simply end in disaster for the game.
    bold of you to assume that Sylvanas living would be disaster for the game, other than the other problems which people unsub for far before story.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  20. #120
    This embellishment of Sylvanas as some kind of "pragmatic, tactical genius, grand planner" is as laughable and pathetic as the embellishments put upon Thrall (post Wotlk) as some kind of savior or messianic figure. Sylvanas, like Thrall, and indeed pretty much every character, has been mangled to hell in back and placed in an absolute absurd position for absurd, laughable reasons."The spirits told me." It would be a mercy on both her and the playerbase to remove her as quickly as possible, and anything that expedites that process is welcome in my eyes. She has become an utterly Flanderised, hyperbolic character that inflicts the exact same death and suffering on others as was inflicted on her because...rhyming narrative beats. "It ryhmes, it's like poetry"--George Lucas

    The Horde cannot exist as a morally bankrupt purveyor of mass murder and ecological destruction, not with the established history of the faction post Warcraft III, or the logical consistency of its chief characters that originate from Warcraft III. The best thing to be done now is bite the bullet and get this utterly forced and contrived rehash over with, and hope that any future Warcraft product chooses to toss the story of World of Warcraft in the dumpster and start fresh. As forlorn a hope the latter is, it's the best we can hope for.

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