Rogues should have Gouge

[Lodravel]

I think Shroud is a badly designed ability. It's obviously imbalanced in M+. With that said, I don't care about it, except for the fact that:

1. PvP Rogues asked Blizzard to give us our buttons back

2. Blizzard said "we hear you, we're going to give you a button back in 7.1"

3. That button was Shroud. Clearly, Blizzard did NOT hear us.

Am I hellbent on removing Shroud from the game? Nah, I don't care. I think it's a badly designed ability that creates a degenerate M+ meta of double Rogue compositions. If I were in charge of designing the class, I would probably consider removing it. But it's not my priority. I'm not starting threads about how Shroud should be pruned.

With that being said, when I am demanding Gouge be restored to its rightful position as my "4" keybind where it resided since early 2005, and people are saying "no you can't have that because you already have Shroud your class is so broken already!", I'm not going to sugarcoat my response or go out of my way to argue that Shroud should stay.

To be honest, that is a question the expansion after BfA will have to answer. Did they learn their lesson? They've heard the unanimous feedback about class design, no doubt. They know there is a no insubstantial part of the playerbase that craves complexity.
Part of that may be getting gouge back.
But we'll have to wait and see. Sit tight and then fill the beta forums, which they'll surely listen to this time, he.
As far as that is concerned, we need more people like Shoegazing. People that treat this like a holy crusade. Shoegazing lo vult, infidels! :P

[ymirsson]

Because Holy Crusades always go so well.

[Lodravel]

Because Holy Crusades always go so well.

Where the metaphor ends, foolery starts. :P

[shoegazing]

As far as that is concerned, we need more people like Shoegazing. People that treat this like a holy crusade. Shoegazing lo vult, infidels! :P

I greatly appreciate your kind and supportive words. And I agree, we as players need to understand that our voices matter.

This class is important to us. We need to speak up about it. It's never too late.

[Naiattavain]

Hunter should be only a ranged class.
DPS classes shouldn't be able to heal.
HEAL classes shouldnt be able to do damage.

Yeah there are things in this game which I can't understand.

rogue should have some range to it that barely works but still works. not broken to where it doesn't work. rogues should have heals recuperate was really good to heal after a fight. healers should be able to do less damage than other pure dps specs . pure dps should be greater damage roles. as healers have greater healing capability. warlords of draenor was a good balance everyone could have fun.

most of this has been taken out and probably why i stopped playing the game.

[FAILoZOFF]

Could not agree more, this is (IMO) a major issue with every class at the moment... The over-separation of specs that began in Legion will forever scar it as a bad expansion in my eyes.

The class/spec dynamic should be a whole package(the class) with the spec, well, specializing in a chunk of it and making that chunk better while retaining all of the base (like it was for the 12 years before Legion happened)... Right now They specialize in the chunk and throw away the rest and it feels awful.

They were close to that idea in WoD but then made a 180 degree turn and splitted everything to pieces.

[Schmilblick]

Cause rogues need more CC, yeah....

[shoegazing]

Cause rogues need more CC, yeah....

Rogues are a CC class and should get back the classic CC that their toolkit always had

And Dance uptime should be reduced to compensate for it, which means less Sap and Cheap Shot

Read the damn thread next time before you fire off a stupid, effortless response

[Schmilblick]

Rogues are a CC class and should get back the classic CC that their toolkit always had

And Dance uptime should be reduced to compensate for it, which means less Sap and Cheap Shot

Read the damn thread next time before you fire off a stupid, effortless response

No they don't.

[Kaver]

No they don't.

What are you saying "No they don't" to?

[toffmcsoft]

This thread shows exactly why CLASSIC is way better then retail.
Rogues should have Gouge by default.

Just like Boomkins should have Blink by default.

Blizzard has ruined the classes in retail, it's an absolute joke.

[Lodravel]

What are you saying "No they don't" to?

To the question whether the people in his life provide him with enough love or to the two bullet points from shoegazing. Beats me.

Concerning the latter, I disagree as well. Having this much access to dance is a lot of fun!
The problem of the overabundance of CC this entails should be solved differently other than reverting to the old state, if it really is necessary to get Gouge back.

[shoegazing]

To the question whether the people in his life provide him with enough love or to the two bullet points from shoegazing. Beats me.

Concerning the latter, I disagree as well. Having this much access to dance is a lot of fun!
The problem of the overabundance of CC this entails should be solved differently other than reverting to the old state, if it really is necessary to get Gouge back.

You aren't appreciating the larger picture.

Having less access to Dance means more impactful Dance and also more incentive to play for restealths outside of Dance windows.

It means Garrote silence can return. It means Find Weakness can be buffed for bigger openers, and you'll have more incentive to restealth in order to get them, using tools like Gouge and Shiv.

On a fundamental level, Subtlety doesn't play like a Rogue any longer. It's just a vehicle for Shadow Dance. Shadow Dance is my single favorite ability in the history of WoW -- because it is special. It shouldn't be the mundane baseline of the rotation.

[hyad]

+1 After playing Vanilla it's actually crazy how much I miss it. I also miss First Aid though..

[shoegazing]

+1 After playing Vanilla it's actually crazy how much I miss it. I also miss First Aid though..

Imagine being a designer and thinking "it's a great idea to remove an ability that Rogues have had and loved since they dinged level 6 in 2004, that they probably had on the same keybind for 12 years. it will work out great."

[shoegazing]

It's time to ramp up this discussion. Ion Hazzikostas has admitted publicly that they went overboard with pruning, focused too much on button count, and damaged class identity in their pursuit of spec identity.

Some of you may think we have already won. This is the opposite of the truth. They are already working on 9.0. It is now more important than ever before to provide specific, actionable feedback about the future of the Rogue class.

[Naiattavain]

It's time to ramp up this discussion. Ion Hazzikostas has admitted publicly that they went overboard with pruning, focused too much on button count, and damaged class identity in their pursuit of spec identity.

Some of you may think we have already won. This is the opposite of the truth. They are already working on 9.0. It is now more important than ever before to provide specific, actionable feedback about the future of the Rogue class.

rogues need more power as a warrior does. this game feels weak sauce playing rogue. id like to see rogues winning 1vs1 duels to name a change worth subscribing too. the normal death spree of playing rogue does not interest me to play anymore. blizzard can go jump off a cliff for all i care. none seems to get what a consumer wants anymore.

[Eazy]

It's time to ramp up this discussion. Ion Hazzikostas has admitted publicly that they went overboard with pruning, focused too much on button count, and damaged class identity in their pursuit of spec identity.

Some of you may think we have already won. This is the opposite of the truth. They are already working on 9.0. It is now more important than ever before to provide specific, actionable feedback about the future of the Rogue class.

To be honest I'd like to see old Mut 41/5/25 spec in PvP. I know it's impossible right now in the current game state, but...

What if we made Preparation a PVP talent for all specs?
What if we got Cold blood once more?
I wouldn't like to be so bleed dependent as I'm right now. Without bleeds my energy regeneration isn't fast enough(just make rupture stronger and delete venomous wounds, it should be used just for dmg). I'd rather have stronger and slower attacks.

[Coldkil]

I'm not playing anymore, but while i like the idea of specs having more identity, the current systems is just bad. I just think we need more buttons, important ones, and that doesn't mean that every spec needs 35 different spells different from each other.

I mean, while it was tedious as hell, i'm fine with SnD being baseline for every spec as a buff to keep up for example. The problem is that we went from "all three specs are generator/snd/rupture" to "the specs feel more like different classes that need all a different setup and also dumbed down to hell/boring".

I can agree that stuff like Sub being a "shadow/magic combatant" archetype isn't appealing to everyone. But in the end it all boils down to gamneplay - if it isn't fun to play, calling a spell "awesomeness incarnate" or "wet spammy noodle" doesn't make any difference.

This is from a mostly PvE pov. Most stuff applies also to PvP though, with the difference that PvP is even more situational and stripping down all situational abilities in favor of streamlining everything had an even bigger impact.

TL;DR: players are bored, classes gameplay is shallow and not maningful. Adding just more buttons doesn't solve anything, class redesign and talnt redesign went down a road that just oversimplified everything for no actual reason.

[Volitar]

Yeah it just feels wrong. Can't wait to play classic again and get all my original Rogue love.