Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

Did you honestly though you could take advantage of my ban to say whatever you wanted and not get a response?...

No, I presumed once your ban expired you would respond. And you have proven me correct. If you've spent the past two weeks seething over this I could suggest you try and get less enforced absences in future. In all honesty it feels as if your status is about 50% here and 50% away, and leaving your flawed point unanswered at the time didn't sit well with me.

Then you procede to post a video where you can't find anything related to races, because, guess what, races are not determined by the faction, the faction are determined by it's members. And also guess what, high elves are alliance.

High elves are alliance, they have pride for it as much as a blood elf can have pride for the horde, if not more.

Remember that blood elves, like forsaken, are the ones that give this impression of being there out of convenience, high elves demonstrates more pride to the alliance than blood elves do, who, remember, were the ones that wanted to defect to the alliance instead of publicly opposing Garrosh, thing that Vol'jin did.

The video I posted was to demonstrate that Blizzard cares about the factions being in opposition to each other. They built the marketing campaign for this expansion around it. Ion Hazzikostas revealed that Alliance High Elves were rejected because of the desire to keep the factions separate. In recent interviews he shot down a fairly widespread belief that the end of this expansion would see a loosening of the restrictions on grouping between Horde and Alliance players precisely because they believe the faction divide is so intrinsic to the game, both systems wise and lore wise. They clearly value the faction divide.


As for 'races are not determined by the faction, the faction are determined by it's member', why do you wish to prove my point? Yes, exactly, the factions are tapestries woven from the individual member races, the character and identity of the faction shaped by the combinations of the races that constitute each side. Sharing part of the Horde tapestry with the Alliance diminishes the uniqueness of the Horde tapestry and dilutes it's identity.

In regards to the spiel about High Elves, no. The majority of the 'high elves' are Horde in the form of the Blood Elves. Blood Elves are High Elves, as Blizzard has confirmed from Chris Metzen back in 2006 to the statements given by Ion Hazzikostas in the present day. A few high elves, the Alliance High Elves, are a part of the Alliance.

As for 'High elves are alliance, they have pride for it as much as a blood elf can have pride for the horde, if not more' you cite Lor'themar's actions in MOP, which of course went nowhere due to Alliance treachery and ignores that the entire Horde was falling apart at the time. It is fortuitous that as a similar situation arises, in 8.2 Lor'themar takes an opposite path, which I shall not get into due to potential spoilers. I can, in counter, cite Veressa Windrunner, the single Alliance High Elf left with any meaningful development and how she was willing to betray the Alliance you claim she has a lot of pride in for a shot at petty vengeance, the result of which would have been her leaving the Alliance to join the Horde.

High elves are alliance, they demonstrate alliance pride, they -are- alliance pride, and that's what bothers you, because it is your pretty race that you don't want the alliance to have, because you feel that if HE become playable your little Kairos would feel less special.

Is it an attempt at intimidation that you reveal you've determined my character's identity? Not as if I was trying to hide it, it's the name I use on discord also, particularly the Vulpera discord which I recommend for all supporters of the Vulpera race being added to the Horde.

And no, I don't want the Alliance to have a Horde race. I would be as vehemently against requests for Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, Goblin or Undead. Looks are unimportant, but the sense of uniqueness is. Blood Elves are a Horde race. Blood Elves are the High Elves of the Warcraft universe, as attested by Blizzard. If you want to play that race, you must commit to the Horde faction, just as anyone who wants to play a Human or a Dwarf must commit to the Alliance faction. That is fair.

Of course, nobody is out there arguing for Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, Goblins or even Undead. The Lightforged Undead idea exists only as an idea rather than a community, and one I heavily against. But only Alliance High Elves have this hardcore of a few hundred people who refuse to take 'no' for an answer, even when provided with a clearly distinguished variant of that race as their very own. What motivates me is the preserving the integrity of the Horde faction and the identity of the Blood Elves.

What seems to motivate most Alliance High Elf supporters is that demand for that 'pretty' race. A suspicion long ago confirmed, and still confirmed to this day, by the parallel attempts to 'fix' Void Elves by giving them normal skins. It would still be a Void Elf in the end of course but so long as it's white skinned and blond I figure most of the usual suspects would declare a win. I think that would be a mistake to give that to Void Elves, but I would feel a sense of complete validation at the same time.

Accepting Void Elves with normal-ish skins proves me right.

Never forget the Pandaren, which, even if you don't like what i'm going to say, are not a mistake in Blizzard's eyes. Taking that into assumption by a little commentary from Ghostcrawler and some haggard conspiracy connecting points without basis is everything but factual...

I have never said Pandaren were a mistake. I said neutral races were a mistake. Your assertion that Blizzard doesn't view neutrality as a mistake is based on...well your desire to have Alliance High Elves and if Blizzard does regard neutral races as a mistake, well then that's a massive blow to your arguments isn't it. So denying the obvious, that they regard neutrality as an error, is one of two coping mechanisms. This is in spite of

GHOSTCRAWLER's tweet while he worked at Blizzard stating that he wasn't a fan of how neutral races worked out.

The lack of any neutral races since Mists of Pandaria.

The Allied race system, a system which includes the benefits of neutral races in terms of costs without the drawbacks in terms of faction identity.

And Blizzard continually hammering away at how important the faction divide is, by building the ad campaign for this expansion around it, by rejecting Alliance High Elves on the grounds they undermined faction identity and by recent comments where they set themselves against the idea of weakening grouping restrictions because they want to maintain the Alliance and Horde as distinct entities.

What you have failed to comprehend is that this is indistinctive of whether the Blood elves are on the horde or not.

High elves are not playable, then people in the alliance ask for them, period.

It takes a certain level of chutzpah to state your opinion as fact and to willingly ignore the mountain of evidence against you. Still doesn't make you less wrong. I could less all the occasions where Blood Elves are described as high elves, but frankly I've done that before and you've seen them so what would be the point. If you're willing to ignore Chris Metzen himself, what would posting the video of Chris talking about Blood Elves being High Elves accomplish?

Also... exactly nobody is saying Blood elves are not from the race of the High elves. What it seems that is failing when looking at your constant retort of Blood elves are High elves is that you completely fail (surely on purpose, how not...) to tell between the name of the race and the name of the group.

Which, duh, it's the same, High elf is the name of the race, Blood elves renamed themselves as... Blood elves... but their race is High elf, and High elves are High elves, their group is called the same way their race does, not like Blood elves who Changed their name to be another thing and do not use the name High elf unless they are specifically talking about their past.

Which proves me wrong, how? The 'last act of the high elves ' (Lady Liadrin in the heritage quest) was the fall of Silvermoon. After that, they were redefined as Blood Elves. Even some of those you claim as Alliance High Elves must have been Blood Elves for a time as they had to be exiled by Lor'themar from Silvermoon once they rejected the teachings brought by Rommath. These individuals show that that is the sole difference, the terminology.

Why are you so bothered to the idea that this is just a matter of... Oh, i see, your answer to @Traycor shows it all.

Because it isn't a matter of time. Believing that all you have to do is wait long enough for the other side to give up so you win is one of the great mistakes people make, so sure are they of the righteousness of their goal that victory becomes inevitable.

Frankly I've been hearing the same prediction for the better part of the past decade and I'll probably here it for a few years yet. Always the same eye on Blizzcon, waiting with breathless anticipation for a reveal that never comes, the crushing disappointment, the recriminations and then the reset as the rallying cry goes out 'next year, in Anaheim!'

Yet you have still to show evidence that HE got ruled out, replaced, or denied.

Leaving evidence aside, which does exist you just don't want to acknowledge it, Void Elves are an existing, playable thalassian elf in the Alliance. That they are the intended replacement for Alliance High Elves is self evident.

That's what you want to believe, love.

So from a light attempt at intimidation to an attempt at creeping me out. Well, your attempt at creeping me out has succeeded, you have made my skin crawl.

That most of this is under the precise scrutiny of our opinions. And that dev word are dev opinion, not necessarily fact.

Cheers!

Dev word is fact. It is your inability to accept this that leads to most of this debate. Frankly, I am happier that my side of the argument can draw on all this evidence from the developers. If you had anything of value from within Blizzard on your side, you wouldn't castigate dev commentary as merely opinion because you would be denigrating your own evidence. You are only free to make the comment because you have nothing of substance in support for your goal.

- - - Updated - - -

snip

Your post is far too long to respond to on a point by point basis. I have already made one substantial post today and cannot do another at this time.

Nevertheless, the consistent thread running through your response can be summed up in the word 'reinterpretation'. You seemingly view all dev commentary as not being inimical to your goal, but as actively facilitating it. Clear no's become maybes. Maybes become sly affirming winks. There is an elemental of the fantastical in your responses, that you can seemingly discern a clear path to Alliance High Elves where nobody else can.

Perhaps you are not right? Perhaps your esoteric reinterpretation of what was said was wrong?

After all, the totality of responses on this matter from Blizzard is simple if taken at face value. They believe Blood Elves are identical to High Elves. When considering allied race candidates, this led them to reject Alliance High Elves on the grounds of faction diversity. Void Elves were created as a compromise, a high elf with's own flavour for the Alliance. Blizzard may change their minds on Alliance High Elves in the future, but their continuous restatement of how important the faction divide is means this is a remote possibility. They MIGHT do something in regards to Void Elves, but that would still be a Void Elf and the possibility was acknowledged, nowhere near confirmation.

That is not an esoteric interpretation on my part. That is what most people believe. Even pro High Elfers believe it, given their rage at the comments and attempt to change Blizzard's mind. But to attempt to change Blizzard's mind, you first have to accept their mind is made up in a way other than what you want. Attempting to argue they are open to the idea when they clearly aren't means you handicap yourself in every debate, as you have here.

[Aldo Hawk]

No, I presumed once your ban expired you would respond. And you have proven me correct. If you've spent the past two weeks seething over this I could suggest you try and get less enforced absences in future. In all honesty it feels as if your status is about 50% here and 50% away, and leaving your flawed point unanswered at the time didn't sit well with me.

That doesn't change the fact that you have taken a dirty advantage at an impossibility of retort.

The video I posted was to demonstrate that Blizzard cares about the factions being in opposition to each other. They built the marketing campaign for this expansion around it. Ion Hazzikostas revealed that Alliance High Elves were rejected because of the desire to keep the factions separate. In recent interviews he shot down a fairly widespread belief that the end of this expansion would see a loosening of the restrictions on grouping between Horde and Alliance players precisely because they believe the faction divide is so intrinsic to the game, both systems wise and lore wise. They clearly value the faction divide.

A faction divide that HE are incapable of destroy, since you could not play with the other faction while at the same time you would be playing with a character that would be exclusive from the faction you created in, amirite?

If that was not the case, you would not even need the same race, you could play a forsaken in the alliance, which is not the case. But guess what, forsaken are horde, high elves are alliance, and blood elves are horde, you cannot destroy a faction divide with a high elf character.

As for 'races are not determined by the faction, the faction are determined by it's member', why do you wish to prove my point? Yes, exactly, the factions are tapestries woven from the individual member races, the character and identity of the faction shaped by the combinations of the races that constitute each side. Sharing part of the Horde tapestry with the Alliance diminishes the uniqueness of the Horde tapestry and dilutes it's identity.

In fact, it completely destroys your whole idea that factions are determined by the races that compose them, and not the other way around.

Did the horde went into being not the horde anymore when Blood elves got introduced into it? forsaken did that? Nightborne? Zandalari?

Did the alliance went into being not the alliance anymore because they introduced Draenei, Night elves, Void elves, Worgen?

Did any of the former factions went into not being itself anymore when Pandaren went into both factions at the exact same time with the exact same everything?.

No.

In regards to the spiel about High Elves, no. The majority of the 'high elves' are Horde in the form of the Blood Elves. Blood Elves are High Elves, as Blizzard has confirmed from Chris Metzen back in 2006 to the statements given by Ion Hazzikostas in the present day. A few high elves, the Alliance High Elves, are a part of the Alliance.

You really want to hold onto the hot nail of them being few huh? it was demonstrated again and again that population is not that big of an issue as many want to portray.

It's crazy to think that you come here spouting that we don't have anything to hold our argument while at the same time you just handwave it all because you don't like it.

High elves have done military effort in alliance storylines and also have civilian life. You -cannot- have those when your population -is- lower than a literal crack squad. It doesn't hold any ground, accept it.

Also, you are correct, High elves are alliance and they -are- faction pride of the alliance. The video you posted is about faction pride, not racial pride, since the races that conforms the factions are just members of it.

Is it an attempt at intimidation that you reveal you've determined my character's identity? Not as if I was trying to hide it, it's the name I use on discord also, particularly the Vulpera discord which I recommend for all supporters of the Vulpera race being added to the Horde.

Intimidation? You can't be serious...

The idea. -Obviously-. It's to show from where you come from. A Blood elf player that is afraid that his little Blood elf will get less special in his eyes if HE get added.

I was contrary to this idea that most of the anti side of the request came from Blood elf players, but day after day it has proven correct. That's why i link my character in my signature, a Blood elf from Silvermoon, with pride for the horde. And also a link to this same thread giving my support to it.

That's why i feel your stance on maintaining a made out sense of Blood elves being special snowflakes is completely flawed, since it evades facts as High elves being members of the Alliance and a rightful allied race and it steps on other players that just want to have a complete, lore-friendly world of warcraft.

And no, I don't want the Alliance to have a Horde race.

They are Alliance.

Blood Elves are a Horde race. Blood Elves are the High Elves of the Warcraft universe, as attested by Blizzard.

I expect to not have the need to clear this twisted statement again.

Chris Metzen said: 'Blood elves are our High elves'

And the -literal- interpretation from that is that Blood elves are the playable High elves of world of warcraft taking into account what a High elf in most fantasy media is.

That was back in 2007, at the presentation of the new expansion, the burning crusade, which portrayed Blood elves in the horde and the developers explaining what approach they made into it. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's completely shameless that you, again and again, come up with a twisted statement as that while trying to pass it as truth.

Next time try to not dismiss the context of what you present, since it doesn't make any good to anyone. Starting with yourself.

If you want to play that race, you must commit to the Horde faction, just as anyone who wants to play a Human or a Dwarf must commit to the Alliance faction. That is fair.

What humans and Dwarves have been in the horde all this time, Obelisk? May you enlighten us with that lost knowledge?

May you try to bring up points that are not out of touch?

Of course, nobody is out there arguing for Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, Goblins or even Undead. The Lightforged Undead idea exists only as an idea rather than a community, and one I heavily against. But only Alliance High Elves have this hardcore of a few hundred people who refuse to take 'no' for an answer, even when provided with a clearly distinguished variant of that race as their very own. What motivates me is the preserving the integrity of the Horde faction and the identity of the Blood Elves.

Nobody is out there maintaining Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, Goblins, Undead or Lightforged Undead because there is no basis at all. And the most near are Lightforged Undead who just falls apart when knowing that there is only one of them.

May you try to bring up points that are not out of touch?

Also, you said in last page that HE are definitely ruled out and by any strange reason you, the enlighten, are the only one here who sees it.

If that's the case, i don't understand why you have been in here all this time. If that's the case, you could let us, the dirty ignorant, alone discussing something that is not going to happen.

Maybe you were not that honest with it? Maybe you perfectly know that HE are not ruled out forever and ever?

What seems to motivate most Alliance High Elf supporters is that demand for that 'pretty' race. A suspicion long ago confirmed, and still confirmed to this day, by the parallel attempts to 'fix' Void Elves by giving them normal skins. It would still be a Void Elf in the end of course but so long as it's white skinned and blond I figure most of the usual suspects would declare a win. I think that would be a mistake to give that to Void Elves, but I would feel a sense of complete validation at the same time.

Accepting Void Elves with normal-ish skins proves me right.

Accepting Void elves with normal-ish skins is a rushy attempt to have the request fulfilled, is not a desirable path for most of the community. But how not, you are again taking that out of context by taking all the people who request for HE under one single thing.

May you try bring up points that are not out of touch?

I have never said Pandaren were a mistake. I said neutral races were a mistake. Your assertion that Blizzard doesn't view neutrality as a mistake is based on...well your desire to have Alliance High Elves and if Blizzard does regard neutral races as a mistake, well then that's a massive blow to your arguments isn't it. So denying the obvious, that they regard neutrality as an error, is one of two coping mechanisms.

Small nuances.

You maintain that idea because Ghostcrawler said something in one tweet one day. A little opinion that has not been repeated since, but whatever dude it's your faith and faith is a powerful weapon huh?

This is in spite of

GHOSTCRAWLER's tweet while he worked at Blizzard stating that he wasn't a fan of how neutral races worked out.

'I'm not a fan'. That's it. Never been repeated or expanded by anyone.

The lack of any neutral races since Mists of Pandaria.

Are you a developer? Can you please remember how many times you felt that you knew what's going on inside the kitchen and been proven wrong by the results? What are your sources stating that this is a fact or even a proof?

The Allied race system, a system which includes the benefits of neutral races in terms of costs without the drawbacks in terms of faction identity.

Nice opinion, where can i find something that prove this?

And Blizzard continually hammering away at how important the faction divide is, by building the ad campaign for this expansion around it, by rejecting Alliance High Elves on the grounds they undermined faction identity and by recent comments where they set themselves against the idea of weakening grouping restrictions because they want to maintain the Alliance and Horde as distinct entities.

Aaaaand this is another quote taken out of context and twisted to make it seem another thing.

Ion Hazzikostas refers explicitly about gameplay.

Not lore.

Gameplay. Factions. Playing horde and grouping with alliance and vice versa. Not lore. Not races. Factions in the context of gameplay.

It takes a certain level of chutzpah to state your opinion as fact and to willingly ignore the mountain of evidence against you. Still doesn't make you less wrong. I could less all the occasions where Blood Elves are described as high elves, but frankly I've done that before and you've seen them so what would be the point. If you're willing to ignore Chris Metzen himself, what would posting the video of Chris talking about Blood Elves being High Elves accomplish?

Is it wrong that the HE request is indistinctive whether Blood elves exist or not? Would players, who know that HE exist, not ask for them if they are not playable? Even if Blood elves didn't exist? Do you have the necessity to go against a simple truth as that?

Simple, and i repeat: High elves are not playable, then people in the alliance ask for them, period.

Easy and clean.

High elves are not playable, then people in the alliance ask for them, period.Which proves me wrong, how? The 'last act of the high elves ' (Lady Liadrin in the heritage quest) was the fall of Silvermoon. After that, they were redefined as Blood Elves. Even some of those you claim as Alliance High Elves must have been Blood Elves for a time as they had to be exiled by Lor'themar from Silvermoon once they rejected the teachings brought by Rommath. These individuals show that that is the sole difference, the terminology.

It proves you wrong in those all many times you took advantage of the confusing nomenclature of the HE and BE to mix things up and go against simple trivia.

Because it isn't a matter of time. Believing that all you have to do is wait long enough for the other side to give up so you win is one of the great mistakes people make, so sure are they of the righteousness of their goal that victory becomes inevitable.

Whatever.

You answer with an unrelated thing just to jump with some kind of despite against the requesters... How about you stick with a related response instead of diverging just to make an attack on anything that is also completely unrelated?

Most of the discussion is about opinions. This includes you. Just look at what you bring up when writing about neutral races...

Frankly I've been hearing the same prediction for the better part of the past decade and I'll probably here it for a few years yet. Always the same eye on Blizzcon, waiting with breathless anticipation for a reveal that never comes, the crushing disappointment, the recriminations and then the reset as the rallying cry goes out 'next year, in Anaheim!'

And your intentions with this are...?

You are not speaking to a political party or a member of a political party. We don't have a consensus and the Alurna's manifest is not a doctrine of any sort. We don't know most of other requesters. Seriously, what are you on about?

Leaving evidence aside, which does exist you just don't want to acknowledge it, Void Elves are an existing, playable thalassian elf in the Alliance. That they are the intended replacement for Alliance High Elves is self evident.

'Is self evident'

Cool opinion.

Lacking evidence.

So from a light attempt at intimidation to an attempt at creeping me out. Well, your attempt at creeping me out has succeeded, you have made my skin crawl.

Funny.

Dev word is fact. It is your inability to accept this that leads to most of this debate. Frankly, I am happier that my side of the argument can draw on all this evidence from the developers. If you had anything of value from within Blizzard on your side, you wouldn't castigate dev commentary as merely opinion because you would be denigrating your own evidence. You are only free to make the comment because you have nothing of substance in support for your goal.

Of course not accepting everything as an immobile fact is inability to accept it. How not? It would be easier if we all just become yesmen amirite?

Dev commentary is not being 'castigated'. Is being put under scrutiny. Since they are human beings and not everything they say is holy word. Love.

[Ielenia]

All highborne lore was already property of the blood elves.

Good joke. Are you going to say that all elf lore is troll lore, too?

[Fetus Rex]

Are you not happy with how far back the shoulders are set for Blood Elves/Void Elves? I don't like that myself.

Yes, that's it. Their shoulders are fucking wrong! Disgraceful!

[matrix123mko]

Good joke. Are you going to say that all elf lore is troll lore, too?

No. Trolls don't build monuments for War of the Ancients combatants.

[Ielenia]

No. Trolls don't build monuments for War of the Ancients combatants.

You really don't know what you're talking about. I suggest you stick to just lurking this thread.

"All highborne lore was already property of the blood elves" is laughable at best.

- - - Updated - - -

I have never said Pandaren were a mistake. I said neutral races were a mistake. Your assertion that Blizzard doesn't view neutrality as a mistake is based on...well your desire to have Alliance High Elves and if Blizzard does regard neutral races as a mistake, well then that's a massive blow to your arguments isn't it. So denying the obvious, that they regard neutrality as an error, is one of two coping mechanisms. This is in spite of

GHOSTCRAWLER's tweet while he worked at Blizzard stating that he wasn't a fan of how neutral races worked out.

I hope, Obelisk Kai, that you're not conflating one man's opinion with the opinion of the entire WoW team. And no, him being the lead developer at the time doesn't mean squat.

If you read this tweet you mentioned, you'll understand that the question was directed at Ghostcrawler, not Blizzard, and the wording in his tweet was clear: he was not a fan, but Blizzard did not want to deny pandaren to anyone.

The lack of any neutral races since Mists of Pandaria.

This is completely irrelevant. Maybe... just maybe... they haven't found a way to fit another "neutral" race into the lore of the expansions they're developing, and it has nothing with this so-called "unwillingness to add more neutral races" idea you are so fond of.

[FlubberPuddy]

Your post is far too long to respond to on a point by point basis. I have already made one substantial post today and cannot do another at this time.

Hey no worries, take your time or not. Forums are a past-time. It's okay either way, debating and articulating posts can be fun but it can get very exhausting as well. Have a bit more free time opened up now that I've graduated but still a bit more to go and I wouldn't want it being all spent on online forums. I wanna get back to playing this game! lol

I do feel though that summarizing a huge response means a lot of details get left out, but again I understand that it can be pretty daunting. I get exhausted myself sometimes when I'm reading your posts and going "oh boy we're in for a long haul here bois!"

Nevertheless, the consistent thread running through your response can be summed up in the word 'reinterpretation'. You seemingly view all dev commentary as not being inimical to your goal, but as actively facilitating it. Clear no's become maybes. Maybes become sly affirming winks. There is an elemental of the fantastical in your responses, that you can seemingly discern a clear path to Alliance High Elves where nobody else can.

Perhaps you are not right? Perhaps your esoteric reinterpretation of what was said was wrong?

So there's just a few things here.

First, I'm not seeing dev responses as actively facilitating the High Elf request. I see the major thematic appears to be "it's possible, but not right now" right now being not in BFA. Does this mean when 9.0 drops I think we'll see High Elves? No, absolutely not does my mind go there. All I merely see it as is they're ruled out for BFA, but not ruled out for the lifetime of the game, the same as other Allied Races that don't make it into BFA that people have wanted for a long time such as Ogres, Forest Trolls, Wildhammer Dwarves.

Second, I don't see anywhere that is a "clear 'No'". If you would like to see Blizzard saying "clear 'No's" then you can watch their response to that one who dude who asked for Classic, or you can watch Ion continually, throughout the years, reiterate that Pathfinder is how they want to handle flying. I'm merely extending to you examples where Blizzard has given "clear 'No's".

Ion on the High Elf conversation has gone from they're a potential possibility when mentioning them alongside Mag'har Orcs during a WoD interview, to downplaying them and ruling them out for BFA once Void Elves released to then again saying "the door hasn't closed, just because they're not in BFA doesn't mean they won't be in WoW ever". Even Afrasiabi when discussing Void Elf customization to "get the High Elf feeling" begins with "it's possible" and emphasizes "don't give up hope". That is by definition not consistent answers from dev responses unlike how consistent they are with Pathfinder - and I don't see the developers continually encouraging people to give their thoughts on whether they think Pathfinder is the perfect solution. They firmly state this is the way they like it and will be continuing to use it across 2-3 years of having the topic brought up. Their High Elf responses? Within less than a year their response regarding the topic changes.

Again, feel free to confirm over Twitter with Ion on FarstriderRaven's meetup and response - at least that way you'll know (and presumably us too) whether it's true or not.

Lastly here, it's not that I see "a path to High Elves no one else can" it's that the discussion surrounding this request has changed. Before any kind of sub-race system (which is part of the Allied Races system) in the game, I always wanted playable High Elves but knew they were a long shot because the way Blizzard created new races they needed to have their own 1-10 starting zone, a plethora of mounts dedicated to them, and a ton of quests showcasing them specifically. That's definitely a tantamount of resources being devoting to what similarly looks like a Blood Elf. But now? AR system is here, where we would get 1 or 2 races, we have now received 8 with more coming, each getting unique customization, racials, A mount, 1 zone to spawn in. The work per 1 Allied Race is much smaller than one full-on race.

Not to mention that the organization surrounding the High Elf request has never been this elaborate before. It's not that "I see a path no one else does" it's that if the aim is to convince Blizzard that playable High Elves is worth doing, then the request has never been as strong as it is now. And this is definitely due in part to the existence of the AR system.

After all, the totality of responses on this matter from Blizzard is simple if taken at face value. They believe Blood Elves are identical to High Elves. When considering allied race candidates, this led them to reject Alliance High Elves on the grounds of faction diversity. Void Elves were created as a compromise, a high elf with's own flavour for the Alliance. Blizzard may change their minds on Alliance High Elves in the future, but their continuous restatement of how important the faction divide is means this is a remote possibility. They MIGHT do something in regards to Void Elves, but that would still be a Void Elf and the possibility was acknowledged, nowhere near confirmation.

Yes, it's not past me to know that there are people out there who feel with what all was said so far means High Elves will never happen (or pretty much never happen aka as close to not happening as possible without actually saying it won't happen). I know one can look at dev responses and believe it to be that way. I know one can look at dev responses and not believe it to be that way. Until Blizzard is explicit enough to rule out High Elves on Alliance forever then it truly is all interpretation from us players.

Sorry I forgot to explain the bold: They're hyping up the faction divide right now because we're in a faction v faction expansion. Just as I've showcased they hyped up garrisons as wow's version of player housing when the garrisons were current. Come 6 years later we see mention that player housing is a big topic within Blizzard and "they're still working on how to implement them correctly" which is an indirect admission that garrisons are not wow's version of player housing. As I highly doubt whenever they do decide to implement player housing, they'll be having us go back to our garrisons in WoD.

That is not an esoteric interpretation on my part. That is what most people believe. Even pro High Elfers believe it, given their rage at the comments and attempt to change Blizzard's mind. But to attempt to change Blizzard's mind, you first have to accept their mind is made up in a way other than what you want.

We don't know if it is what "most people" believe. Can you point to me and give me evidence that "most people" believe High Elves aren't happening? Online I feel you will find the opposite. Also, this entire request is being made to change Blizzard's mind. Everyone here has accepted that right now Blizzard doesn't feel they're different enough. So all the contribution towards getting them playable is to show how they can be differentiated and unique in their own way.

Attempting to argue they are open to the idea when they clearly aren't means you handicap yourself in every debate, as you have here.

I'm not sure how devs acknowledging them being a community favorite, some giving their own personal support for the idea, and some commenting on how it's possible they can happen in the future can all be taken as "they clearly aren't". To me I often see the ones who say "they clearly aren't open to the idea" as going back to the one moment in time that post Allied Race system Ion's QA in April 2018 and taking his response of "No plans in the near-term to add High Elves as an Allied Race."

These players then seem to go on to believe the conversation is done and over and dealt with, yet for some reason seem to never move past that moment, never acknowledge the other responses said by Blizzard developers shortly before and shortly after Ion's QA, never acknowledge that BFA is going to end and the "faction v faction" thematic will also come to a close.

This entire topic is not a conversation that has ended, if it were it wouldn't have seen encouragement to continue from the Creative Director of World of Warcraft and also (again if FarstriderRaven's meeting is to be believed) a clarification of not being ruled out of WoW forever by the Game Director of World of Warcraft.

Let's look at it from a logical standpoint forum-wise. Classic for instance is happening yes, no doubt about it. Do you imagine Blizzard on their official forums are going to keep threads like "Classic will never happen!" open or do you imagine they will lock those threads?

Because you're speaking about High Elves getting "clear 'No's" which means this topic should be a done deal. Threads discussing their possible implementation shouldn't exist or should be locked if "clearly they aren't" going to ever add High Elves. Just like threads that are clearly impossible such as someone now making a "Classic will never happen" (when clearly it is) would get it 100% get locked.

And I'm talking about on the official forums, though I'm pretty sure MMO-C would also lock a thread that's "going against the obvious" like a Classic won't happen thread.

But clearly that isn't the case as the High Elf thread on official forums were given the okay to make a new one because the previous one got too big to handle in under just 2 months.

- - - Updated - - -

This is completely irrelevant. Maybe... just maybe... they haven't found a way to fit another "neutral" race into the lore of the expansions they're developing, and it has nothing with this so-called "unwillingness to add more neutral races" idea you are so fond of.

I actually like the way they did Tortollan and feel they could work better than Pandas did. Tortollan get convinced enough to help either side based on being able to get amazing stories told to them in exchange, they're almost mercenary-like in this way. Though I'm not sure if Blizzard would add a neutral race like that which has flimsy loyalty to the factions, despite some of the already playable races being that flimsy.

[Varx]

Ok ok i got the perfect compromise. Make blood elves neutral but unlike pandas you choose your faction as you create your character. This way alliance high elves can begin as the warcraft 2 elves.

Throw in a new horde race to compensate and bam there you go.

[Fetus Rex]

Get cereal with me man!

Only if they come with meat. And milk is sour. Khorne flakes, edgy enough to cause bloody diarrhea.

[FlubberPuddy]

Ok ok i got the perfect compromise. Make blood elves neutral but unlike pandas you choose your faction as you create your character. This way alliance high elves can begin as the warcraft 2 elves.

Throw in a new horde race to compensate and bam there you go.

You keep repeating this terrible idea. I think it's so terrible that people on both sides of the High Elf topic would actually be in agreement with how terrible this idea is.

[Obelisk Kai]

You keep repeating this terrible idea. I think it's so terrible that people on both sides of the High Elf topic would actually be in agreement with how terrible this idea is.

I think this is the first time we are in agreement on something.

- - - Updated - - -

Ok ok i got the perfect compromise. Make blood elves neutral but unlike pandas you choose your faction as you create your character. This way alliance high elves can begin as the warcraft 2 elves.

Throw in a new horde race to compensate and bam there you go.

Varx that's not a compromise. It was never a compromise. The point of the anti High Elf position is that Blood Elves are High Elves and the option is available on the Horde. Your proposal gives the Alliance identical high elves.

What exactly does my side of the debate gain out of this...or how do we lose less as compromises by their nature are imperfect?

[Aldo Hawk]

Ok ok i got the perfect compromise. Make blood elves neutral but unlike pandas you choose your faction as you create your character. This way alliance high elves can begin as the warcraft 2 elves.

Throw in a new horde race to compensate and bam there you go.

Again with this?

You have been told why this is a terrible idea a hundred times.

In fact... Go to the official forums and create a megathread about it, gather people who thinks it is a good request and create a discord and all the jazz.

I hope good luck for you.

[Frenchvince]

Most of the allied races that became playable were very different when they were simple NPCs.
The biggest physical changes were for the 2 breeds below:

- Dark Iron Dwarves, new hairstyles, hot hair type, facial tattoos, fiery eyes
- Nightborne, for them everything is different from the NPC version.

High elves should have the same treatment to be very different from blood elves.
It's not the ideas that are missing in this thread.

So the excuse "the high elves are the same as the blood elves" is not valid because you have the NPC HE for reference.


For the second allied elf race pack, the san'layn will be good candidates to join the horde, if the HEs are in the alliance. Here is the equitable compromise that blizz should do.

[FlubberPuddy]

FlupperPubby, I don't think we have to worry about that happening lol ... I'm pretty sure something we want may be happening soon.

What would that something we want be?

[Varx]

Hey now, before i was saying to revamp silvermoon and start a new intro for neutral elves.

Now im just saying skip all that jaz and have the ability to choose the faction at the start of the creation process.

This way high elves from warcraft 2 can still be those same elves, which isnt what you guys want?

And obelisk what we gain is an entire new race. I know belves = helves and if you wanna play a helf then the horde is waiting for you, believe me im all behind that.

However the truth is that the alliance does have pure thalassian elves in their ranks, that's undeniable. So unless all high elves get wrecked they will always be a legit request but as a neutral race imo. I mean the only differences between pandas and the elves is that the alliance splinter is not available to players and the lore origins.

So since what they want are the same elves from wc2 and not a revamp of eversong then just skip the intro and have players choose the faction at the start. If you choose alliance then you'd start in allerian strong hold or wherever as a helf with blue eyes.

Give the horde a new race that can be paladins and GG. How is that not a fair compromise.

Wtf is the obession with making them their own AR? It's like making those horde kt human pirates their own AR.

[FlubberPuddy]

I'm pretty sure you have their attention! I'm hoping a few of Blizzard's crew have taken heed of your thoughts!

Thanks for the vote of confidence. We'll see though, I don't imagine getting any type of answer soon.

[DeicideUH]

I don't imagine getting any type of answer soon.

I'm actually dreading whatever answer we may end up getting.

[Strippling]

After the next round of ARs (likely to be mechagnomes and vulpera), I don't think we'll see much more in the way of races for a while unless the parent race AR trend continues, then that leaves worgen and undead.. apart from that though I think the next expansion won't focus on new races much (if at all). So it could be several years before we see any new playable races (whether AR or full fledged race) after this round of ARs is complete.

[DeicideUH]

After the next round of ARs (likely to be mechagnomes and vulpera), I don't think we'll see much more in the way of races for a while unless the parent race AR trend continues, then that leaves worgen and undead.. apart from that though I think the next expansion won't focus on new races much (if at all). So it could be several years before we see any new playable races (whether AR or full fledged race) after this round of ARs is complete.

My bet is on 4 more allied races ahead.
Vulpera + Junker gnomes
Then another pair that I think will be ogres or mok'nathal (modified kul tiran model) + the "redeemed" (light undead).

Next expansion won't focus on races and I doubt any will be announced for it, but I think allied race system will keep existing, and we will see like one ocasional pair, like once per expansion or so, released in patches rather than at the beginning of the expansion.

[Strippling]

Next expansion won't focus on races and I doubt any will be announced for it, but I think allied race system will keep existing, and we will see like one ocasional pair, like once per expansion or so, released in patches rather than at the beginning of the expansion.

That's a reasonable assumption. It'd be a pity though if we never get full fledged races again with their own starting zones etc... guess we'll have to wait and see.