Mythic+ is terrible for the game

[De Lupe]

Infinite scaling and repeatability mixed with titanforging and e-sports gogo mentality produced one of the worst features in recent memory. It promotes a toxic wannabe elitist attitude, relies on a quick fix of dopamine that has no place in MMORPG, and severely diminishes the importance of raiding.

This...

the only part of it that bothers me to no end is the timed factor. i really dislike timed dungeons. the occasion mount run is fine, but MoP CM... and Mythic+ today, having a timed concept is just horrible. im just a very methodical player, and would appreciate challenges that allow for that. the constant rush rush rush.. you must be this class... blah blah. hate it. wont do Mythic+ because of it.

...plus this.

[Voidwielder]

How are you implying that a group would know their skill level before entering?

Even if you claim by raider.io, that's hardly a good measure either of skill, it just shows whether or not you've done it before.

7 out of 10 times RIO can be trusted. The rest is my gut feel, inspections and small chat with people. Sometimes works, sometimes fails.

[Jester Joe]

7 out of 10 times RIO can be trusted. The rest is my gut feel, inspections and small chat with people. Sometimes works, sometimes fails.

With how popular it is to sell +10 carries?
And how easy it is after that to sneak into pugs that will just deal with you because they don't want to lose the key even if your dps is low?

I'd disagree. Hell, I've helped people myself get +10s done that wouldn't have been able to on their own, talking about pulling as much or less damage than a tank even (no, not warrior aoe, prot paladin with a lower ilvl than the DPS even).

Either way, you can't look at someone's io score and decide "they suck". Too many people go by that blindly, only saving grace I've had is that I had a group of friends I ran with up to 1.4k on my paladin, so when I reroll other toons now I can link them to my main's score.

[ceall]

Fixed that for you.

Raider.io is made by people. So it's still Raider.io being the problem.

There could be a much better, less toxic in-game measurement for m+. I mean look what gearscore did back in wrath.


Oh and by the way, I'm not a salty casual getting declined 24/7, I just see the negative side of this third party program.

[TheVaryag]

Why do you half of you treat this site like your personal blog to vent on?

Because he's making a good point, If you're uninterested don't reply to the OP. If you are, then listen even If the way he says It might not be the most constructive or explains much very well.

The glorified Diablo 3 greater rift system, now renamed to "Mythic+", is an un-MMO like feature that completely ruined ANY other way of gearing. It's literally a system taken from a non-MMORPG. It does not belong here.

The fact that you get the same ilvl from M+ as raiding is just awful. Why would anyone raid? Even Method has only defeated Jaina 2 times. Why farm her more? They get better gear from M+.

I was serious about raiding during this expansion for the first time since MoP. I was farming the heroics and then we started raiding as a Heroic raiding guild. It was fun. Then M+ unlocked. Guild leaders going "We expect you to farm M+ for gear and get +x ilvl by next raid"... I hate doing the same dungeons over and over again with scaled hp and dmg. Also raiding don't even give a single Tier set that looks cool... I quit raiding 3 weeks after M+ unlocked.

Raiding gear can't compete with M+. PvP gear can't compete with M+. Nothing can comete with M+.

I tried to cap on Conquest points each week to get that kind of gear but it's still miles worse than what M+10 gives.

How about making a dungeon system that can feel rewarding all expansion long without any scaling, while still giving incentive to raid? PS: Vanilla managed to do it, see dungeons set 1 and 2.

The game has gone from "raid or die" to "m+ or die", and I for one, rather die then.

Despite how blunty and kind of aggresively you put It. You are right, I've been saying this since I tried the system out In Legion, M+ Is going to ruin the game. And now It's the second expansion with M+ In It. This quote from Blizzcon 2017 I will remember forever. "We've designed the Dungeons in Battle for Azeroth with Mythic+ In mind" my first reaction was "Oh god, you designed dungeons to be rushfests? Why..." I mean they ALREADY WERE rushfests, people were rushing dungeons like there's no tommorow.

If you asked people If there was a roof In their dungeon they couldn't tell you, because they'd be looking straight and pressing W all the time withuut bloody stop. This mentality Is really bad for the game. It's easy to take Classic Beta and compare It to WoW Retail and how you Invest your time and effort Into going Into a dungeon, by foot for one thing, with people you supposedly trust to distribute loot with you fairly and so on. There's going to be consequence for ninjaing loot, for leaving mid-dungeon and so on. It's -your- time lost, nobody is forcing you to do Dungeons, you don't -have- to do dugneons to get to Endgame If that's your goal.

But in Retail WoW, you hop Into a dungeon and can have the entire group change all of It's 5 members, twice before you even get to the last boss. That's not a dungeon to me, that's a mindless boring rushfest. Not only that the mantality of people Is to rush, If people stay still for even 15 seconds one group member be like "I think XXX Is afk, kick him" while all they did was just take a sip of water or something. But because people are In such a fucking rush, they don't care. It'll be quicker to ltierally kick that afk person than to wait for them because you're not Invested In the group run, not really. Yes that guy might be suddenly fighting with his mum or whatever, but you gotta wait for him because he's your tank and you know how hard that Is to find back In the day.

To me, subjectively that Is much more appealing, Investing your time Into a dungeon with randoms you find, and NOT through a queue system that promotes elitism and this rush mentality we've had going since Cataclysm onward.

Lastly to Illustrate the OP's point. Mythic + -is- literally taken from Diablo 3, you can't say It hasn't with half of the WoW team being "Bolstered" by Diablo 3 devs back during Warlord times. Same goes for the rift system or whatever It's called on Argus, which again Is like a mini version of a Rift from Diablo but not randomly generated all the time. Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure It's a fine feature In a top-down brawler like Diablo 3, but not In an MMO. Doing the same annoying dungeon over and over again. It also does break the progression, I mean I know gear progression is basically useless now, replaced with "ARTIFACT POWAH" as cringy as that Is to even write.

And this artifact power while being the shittiest system I've ever seen since Legion, alongside It's mythic+, World Quest and Legendary System still pales In comparison to the shit It's culminated Into In BfA.

Where Is the NORMAL gear progression we've had even in WoD? For all It's fault, the questing, the zones, the story (Although cringy and star trek time travelling bullship-y) wasn't that bad. And the gear progressed well enough, even in PvP. You went from Normal Dungeon - Heroic Dungeon - LFR Raid/Normal Raid - Heroic Raid - Mythic Raid (Although I don't believe Mythic raids are nececery at all, too many difficulties. Where does Blizzard take this Idea? Definitely not other MMOs that are succesful, i dont' see any of the top MMos doing that kind of system and doing well)

Where are RIGHT NOW, In BfA and to some extent In Legion the progression was so bad with gear. You could do a Normal Dungeon..... and just do anything else, whatever. World Quests give you epic helmets of tree growing and boots of nut kicking. Why do a heroic or mythic dungeon If you can do a simple and easy WORLD QUEST! Or even better, loot a legendary ring of the Nathrezim sex appeal right from a Boar's Gut, HOW LEGENDARY IS THAT?!

No seriously, get rid of Mythic + Blizzard. You tried your best with it, but just like the rest of the game's systems right now, It's really bad. It serves nothing but give everyone free welfare loot for running up to mythic +10 that's It. And we've got enough welfare gear for the last two expansions.

[Katie N]

While you're not wrong technically about certain classes being better, that's the mentality of the groups you're finding is the issue not that it's not doable.

Yes, I know. I had the same issue on my druid when I wanted to play it because it's feral. Nobody wants a feral druid. It's ultimately Blizzard's fault for making mythic plus what they are. With next patch, it'll only get worse with the introduction of smoke bomb again to rogues, they'll be the supreme class for mythic plus, why even take anything else? You can effectively pull out in the open without having to LoS, just smoke bomb when you pull. You can effectively stop spellcasters from casting on your group, just smoke bomb and they'll be forced to run into close quarter. Same with ranged physical mobs.

It's not like brewmasters are high in demand right now so I'm a bit confused on that comparison, but I've healed guardian druids before and I've never seen them as taking insane amounts of damage unless they overpull or aren't using their AM properly.

I had a guardian druid in king's rest with fortified die on the 3-pack after the first boss because he didn't have rage to use ironfur as we engaged. Brewmaster monks? They don't need rage, they just pop their damage reduction and they have passive reduction in the form of stagger. Paladins? They just pop their damage reduction. I've never had any tank but guardian druids die to that pack. We did the pack again after he used SI but that's so fucking overkill to have to use SI on that pack when neither monks or paladins have to use their big CDs to survive the pack.

[Tech614]

With how popular it is to sell +10 carries?
And how easy it is after that to sneak into pugs that will just deal with you because they don't want to lose the key even if your dps is low?

I'd disagree. Hell, I've helped people myself get +10s done that wouldn't have been able to on their own, talking about pulling as much or less damage than a tank even (no, not warrior aoe, prot paladin with a lower ilvl than the DPS even).

Either way, you can't look at someone's io score and decide "they suck". Too many people go by that blindly, only saving grace I've had is that I had a group of friends I ran with up to 1.4k on my paladin, so when I reroll other toons now I can link them to my main's score.

You can see if someone was carried on IO. Look at their runs, if they got their score by running with players in a much higher score range chances are they got carried.

[Aggrophobic]

The glorified Diablo 3 greater rift system, now renamed to "Mythic+", is an un-MMO like feature that completely ruined ANY other way of gearing. It's literally a system taken from a non-MMORPG. It does not belong here.

The fact that you get the same ilvl from M+ as raiding is just awful. Why would anyone raid? Even Method has only defeated Jaina 2 times. Why farm her more? They get better gear from M+.

I was serious about raiding during this expansion for the first time since MoP. I was farming the heroics and then we started raiding as a Heroic raiding guild. It was fun. Then M+ unlocked. Guild leaders going "We expect you to farm M+ for gear and get +x ilvl by next raid"... I hate doing the same dungeons over and over again with scaled hp and dmg. Also raiding don't even give a single Tier set that looks cool... I quit raiding 3 weeks after M+ unlocked.

Raiding gear can't compete with M+. PvP gear can't compete with M+. Nothing can comete with M+.

I tried to cap on Conquest points each week to get that kind of gear but it's still miles worse than what M+10 gives.

How about making a dungeon system that can feel rewarding all expansion long without any scaling, while still giving incentive to raid? PS: Vanilla managed to do it, see dungeons set 1 and 2.

The game has gone from "raid or die" to "m+ or die", and I for one, rather die then.

But what you're saying here is that the gear system is wrong, not M+.
But who says raids should be the only way to gear up in MMOs? Clearly more people enjoy M+ than mythic raiding and Blizzard even amanged to creat a sort of esport around it.

M+ is a great success and thats coming from a person that raided at a rather high level for years. M+ is not as fun for me but for the majority, it probably is a better and more fun option.

[Katie N]

You can see if someone was carried on IO. Look at their runs, if they got their score by running with players in a much higher score range chances are they got carried.

People just look at the score in the in-game addon. They don't check the page.

[Tech614]

People just look at the score in the in-game addon. They don't check the page.

And if they do that, they deserve no right to complain when they end up invited someone that doesn't perform as expected. Especially since the addon literally links you to their IO pages.

[scaphism]

imo if they want to fix the game. just take it back to vanilla. No personal loot, raid bosses drop less loot, 2 or 3 endgame dungeons but make them very expansive like brd, ubrs/lbrs. remove daily quests that are tied to gear rewards rep, gold, cosmetic, or profession related. If they wanted to go to a token system for sets again Im actually fine with that. m+ is fine but it should really only reward your weekly chest and should just be about being the highest ranking/doing them the fastest.

[Kemsa]

You are wrong, M+ its the best thing since "Challenge mode" dungeons on Pandaria or the "heroic" version of dungeons. Sadly M+ are only tied to the "expansion at turn" instead of all the dungeons going to max lvl with the affixs, but well, one day my dream of Tyrannical Maraudon will happen.... one day.

[Polarthief]

415s are worse than 400s?
Maybe it's the fact that raiding is stuck on a weekly lockout is the worse thing (especially Mythic being tied to an ID lockout system instead of personal progression), and literally nothing else but raiding and M+ matter. WQs, Emissaries, hell even crafting (you can only make 2 415 pieces that never even WF/TF, roll sockets, or roll tertiary stats, and one of the mats are FROM THE RAIDS) are all flat out inferior unless they roll ridiculously high TFs.

[SirBeef]

Raider.io is made by people. So it's still Raider.io being the problem.

There could be a much better, less toxic in-game measurement for m+. I mean look what gearscore did back in wrath.


Oh and by the way, I'm not a salty casual getting declined 24/7, I just see the negative side of this third party program.

No, people are the problem, not the mechanisms they create. That's like blaming a gun for a murder someone comitted.

[Jester Joe]

Yes, I know. I had the same issue on my druid when I wanted to play it because it's feral. Nobody wants a feral druid. It's ultimately Blizzard's fault for making mythic plus what they are. With next patch, it'll only get worse with the introduction of smoke bomb again to rogues, they'll be the supreme class for mythic plus, why even take anything else? You can effectively pull out in the open without having to LoS, just smoke bomb when you pull. You can effectively stop spellcasters from casting on your group, just smoke bomb and they'll be forced to run into close quarter. Same with ranged physical mobs.

That still depends. Don't forget combat is getting their aoe trait nerfed a decent amount so they won't be as ridiculous for aoe anymore, and if the other essences are stronger for other classes it won't matter that rogues can bring smoke bomb if the flip side is having an essence that only brings smoke bomb.

Feral has always kinda been the punching bag of druid specs though, M+ doesn't really do much but amplify how obvious it is.

I had a guardian druid in king's rest with fortified die on the 3-pack after the first boss because he didn't have rage to use ironfur as we engaged. Brewmaster monks? They don't need rage, they just pop their damage reduction and they have passive reduction in the form of stagger. Paladins? They just pop their damage reduction. I've never had any tank but guardian druids die to that pack. We did the pack again after he used SI but that's so fucking overkill to have to use SI on that pack when neither monks or paladins have to use their big CDs to survive the pack.

Shift out of bear form, shift back in, gives you 20 rage, barkskin and bristling fur on pull?

Guardian druids have it a bit rougher on pull yes, but they also don't have an AM that's based off of a cooldown ability really, they can keep it rolling as long as they have the rage.

You can see if someone was carried on IO. Look at their runs, if they got their score by running with players in a much higher score range chances are they got carried.

Only works in the right situation though.

For example, the group I sold runs with we were all around 1.1k io, because no one bothered to push higher, they'd rather just downgrade keys and sell them.

So if we sold runs to someone repeatedly, slowly they'll look like they're just part of the group normally as IO isn't snapshotted per run.
If you go by gear levels even, it could just look like they were getting carried to get geared up at the time.

That being said, yes inspecting their actual page is a better idea but it's still flawed.

[Katie N]

Shift out of bear form, shift back in, gives you 20 rage, barkskin and bristling fur on pull?

That's what he did. It was not enough.

Guardian druids have it a bit rougher on pull yes, but they also don't have an AM that's based off of a cooldown ability really, they can keep it rolling as long as they have the rage.

A bit is an understatement. Just checking on my druid, ilvl 390 it has 6k armor in bear without ironfur up. My paladin, has 6.9k armor at 400 but my paladin can also block and has a self-heal that is reduced by using my mitigation. I don't have to choose between mitigation and threat on my paladin, like druid have to with maul or ironfur. Frenzied regen also only heals 24% of your hp while a heal with the paladins heal can restore more than 50% of your health and it has a lower CD than frenzied regen and you can reduce the CD on it by using active mitigation. Paladins low-cd mitigation also has a component which acts like guardian spirit death save, unlike barkskin. They also have a long-cd OH SHIT lay on hands, unlike druids.

Guardian druid is just shit tier compared to any other tank. Nobody wants a guardian druid. I don't want to heal a guardian druid on any character I heal with. I don't want a guardian druid to tank when I play DPS, because their threat generation is an issue.

That still depends. Don't forget combat is getting their aoe trait nerfed a decent amount so they won't be as ridiculous for aoe anymore, and if the other essences are stronger for other classes it won't matter that rogues can bring smoke bomb if the flip side is having an essence that only brings smoke bomb.

I don't play combat on my rogue, I still get priority over non-rogues due to shroud skips. With smoke bomb, it'll only be amplified. There's nothing for assassination that will be better than insane utility like smoke bomb.

[Tech614]

That being said, yes inspecting their actual page is a better idea but it's still flawed.

It's not flawed at all and no offense but I highly doubt a group capable of carrying ever had 1.1k scores. Claiming they had no desire to push higher isn't even an excuse because if you are strong enough to do carries you would eventually be timing 13s and probably even 14s just through natural progression without trying to push putting the score a lot higher then that.

Can you still find meh players? Sure. Are you gonna find literal door mats that are barely helping? Highly, highly doubtful. It's only flawed if you're looking for some perfect group, which you should only be doing at really high key levels anyways and the skill level at that point will be so high it doesn't matter.

My group doesn't optimize or try to push shit and we're timing 15s and 16s weekly now, just because that is where we got through natural progression 1 night a week for 2 hours. Hard SUS to the "I'm only 1.1k cause I don't want to push" crowd.

[Jester Joe]

That's what he did. It was not enough.

I don't see the issue with having to pop SI on pull honestly either. There's a reason druids gets two charges and one of the lower CDs on their big reduction.

A bit is an understatement. Just checking on my druid, ilvl 390 it has 6k armor in bear without ironfur up. My paladin, has 6.9k armor at 400 but my paladin can also block and has a self-heal that is reduced by using my mitigation. I don't have to choose between mitigation and threat on my paladin, like druid have to with maul or ironfur. Frenzied regen also only heals 24% of your hp while a heal with the paladins heal can restore more than 50% of your health and it has a lower CD than frenzied regen and you can reduce the CD on it by using active mitigation. Paladins low-cd mitigation also has a component which acts like guardian spirit death save, unlike barkskin. They also have a long-cd OH SHIT lay on hands, unlike druids.

That's just an ilvl/gear issue though. The difference between a 390 and a 400 piece of gear adds up over each piece for armor, and tack on that ones a plate user.
Frenized Regen has a 33 second recharge with holding 2 charges, while baseline Light of the Protector has 15 second CD with no charges.

Only talent choices let you get it lower, it's not baseline. Also never have I felt pressured into having to use maul for aggro.

On the other side, a paladin has no way to push mobs away, to hold them in place as they kite, a brez, a proper charge ability, and a limited AoE aggro potential since consecration doesn't pull off of people and shield throw only bounces so much.

Guardian druid is just shit tier compared to any other tank. Nobody wants a guardian druid. I don't want to heal a guardian druid on any character I heal with. I don't want a guardian druid to tank when I play DPS, because their threat generation is an issue.

If you want actual trash, you could try Vengeance.

I don't play combat on my rogue, I still get priority over non-rogues due to shroud skips. With smoke bomb, it'll only be amplified. There's nothing for assassination that will be better than insane utility like smoke bomb.

Combat is what's considered the "meta" though, since not only does it bring the utility but it brings ridiculous aoe damage.

It's not flawed at all and no offense but I highly doubt a group capable of carrying ever had 1.1k scores. Claiming they had no desire to push higher isn't even an excuse because if you are strong enough to do carries you would eventually be timing 13s and probably even 14s just through natural progression without trying to push putting the score a lot higher then that.

My group doesn't optimize or try to push shit and we're timing 15s and 16s weekly now, just because that is where we got through natural progression 1 night a week for 2 hours. Hard SUS to the "I'm only 1.1k cause I don't want to push" crowd.

No offense, but you seem to have a problem often with thinking your opinion trumps reality.

Some people just genuinely do not care about going higher than an 11 because there's no point except e-peen. I get my +10 key on the next reset, I get my +10 loot, why go higher?
You can doubt it all you want, but we did it. Hell, I literally had a guild who refused to tank anything past an +11, and would only run his key if it could be downed to sell it.

These players exist. Some of us just don't care to push higher anymore. Just because we have a +13 or +14 doesn't mean we'll run it.

[Kokolums]

I have to laugh how you blame one aspect of the game for subs going down, when it has been stated that subs started going downhill after WoTLK, took a nose dive in early Cataclysm and has not been the same ever since..

Also I don't see how you can be blaming a single dungeon mode creating an antisocial community.. When I would say that LFD that was implemented during WoTLK would be more than likely the cause of this "antisocial community"..

For when you look at it if you are saying that a single dungeon mode is the cause of this phenomena, then all dungeon modes would be equally as guilty of contributing to this so called "antisocial community" phenomena.. Or maybe it is that people have changed in the time that the game has been running and are not as social as they once used to be..

Hey, I raid with a few guilds and I'm in a few "Blizzard communities". In every single place I go, I hear people saying in chat that if it wasn't for the cool group of people they play with, they would quit WoW". Not ONCE have I heard anyone say "If it wasn't for m+, I would quit wow". In fact, a lot of them hate m+.

Just last week, the raid leader was talking on discord about how his favorite moments were the funny people that made him laugh in discord. THAT'S the draw. The draw is PEOPLE. SOCIALIZING. Playing with others. Blizzard does NOT understand this.

WoW should be about facilitating the ability of people to get together, laugh, and share good times. The actual game should be in the background. The game should provide opportunities for large groups of people to make friends and have fun. Retail is designed BACKWARDS, with the game up front and barriers all over the place to prevent social interaction.

That is why WoW keeps declining.

[Battlebeard]

I absolutely agree. I think they should take away any gear rewards from M+, except ONE gear per week, from your chest. Though personally I hate M+ with all my heart and wish they will remove it next expansion.