Mythic+ is terrible for the game

[Tweedzz]

Everyone wants to blame a particular system or change, one they dislike, for WoWs decline. Wow has been declining for a long time through many new systems and changes. Sure, some of those caused people to quit but I think WoWs real enemy was always time. The game is really old at this point and when it first came on the scene there were not anywhere near the number of other MMOs. I bet most people left not over any one system, but because there are enough MMOs out there to find a niche specifically for themselves.

Don’t like M+? The devs will never hear you on this forum. Speak to them how they will hear and go find and give your money to that niche MMO that fits you perfectly.

[barackohmama]

M+ is way more fun than raiding so I don't see the problem really.

[Kaver]

The glorified Diablo 3 greater rift system, now renamed to "Mythic+", is an un-MMO like feature that completely ruined ANY other way of gearing. It's literally a system taken from a non-MMORPG. It does not belong here.

The fact that you get the same ilvl from M+ as raiding is just awful. Why would anyone raid? Even Method has only defeated Jaina 2 times. Why farm her more? They get better gear from M+.

I was serious about raiding during this expansion for the first time since MoP. I was farming the heroics and then we started raiding as a Heroic raiding guild. It was fun. Then M+ unlocked. Guild leaders going "We expect you to farm M+ for gear and get +x ilvl by next raid"... I hate doing the same dungeons over and over again with scaled hp and dmg. Also raiding don't even give a single Tier set that looks cool... I quit raiding 3 weeks after M+ unlocked.

Raiding gear can't compete with M+. PvP gear can't compete with M+. Nothing can comete with M+.

I tried to cap on Conquest points each week to get that kind of gear but it's still miles worse than what M+10 gives.

How about making a dungeon system that can feel rewarding all expansion long without any scaling, while still giving incentive to raid? PS: Vanilla managed to do it, see dungeons set 1 and 2.

The game has gone from "raid or die" to "m+ or die", and I for one, rather die then.

Current WoW = Diablo 3 + Raiding

It's not an MMORPG anymore.

[Jester Joe]

Hey, I raid with a few guilds and I'm in a few "Blizzard communities". In every single place I go, I hear people saying in chat that if it wasn't for the cool group of people they play with, they would quit WoW". Not ONCE have I heard anyone say "If it wasn't for m+, I would quit wow". In fact, a lot of them hate m+.

Just last week, the raid leader was talking on discord about how his favorite moments were the funny people that made him laugh in discord. THAT'S the draw. The draw is PEOPLE. SOCIALIZING. Playing with others. Blizzard does NOT understand this.

WoW should be about facilitating the ability of people to get together, laugh, and share good times. The actual game should be in the background. The game should provide opportunities for large groups of people to make friends and have fun. Retail is designed BACKWARDS, with the game up front and barriers all over the place to prevent social interaction.

That is why WoW keeps declining.

Er, what.

Do you think people do M+ in complete silence? That's one of the best parts of M+, is doing them with friends and joking and screwing around along the way.

If it wasn't for M+ giving me that ability to do that in a small group, I would have quit WoW myself.

[Redroniksre]

That was the case in Legion before they decided to destroy Tier sets. Argus tier sets were so strong that without them you had no business pushing highest keys. They should bring that back. That's when raiding still had an incentive and was relatively above M+ in terms of rewards (few trinkets don't count).

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Now you're a psychic as well.
Pft, get lost.

I will always be against being a raider somehow means your content must make you overpower all other content. Im more in agreeance that we should segregate gear to its content so that if you want to be good at dungeons you cant just raid and get that handed to you.

[Tweedzz]

Er, what.

Do you think people do M+ in complete silence? That's one of the best parts of M+, is doing them with friends and joking and screwing around along the way.

If it wasn't for M+ giving me that ability to do that in a small group, I would have quit WoW myself.

Truly. My best memories throughtout wow have always been during small group content. I still have a picture of myself and four friends on the throne in BRD from vanilla. I have had a lot of fun with my mythic+ group through legion and bfa. We are loud and goofy enough to bug my wife.

[Jester Joe]

Truly. My best memories throughtout wow have always been during small group content. I still have a picture of myself and four friends on the throne in BRD from vanilla. I have had a lot of fun with my mythic+ group through legion and bfa. We are loud and goofy enough to bug my wife.

Part of why I stopped caring to push higher honestly too.

I won't deny that as the keys went higher into the 15-17 range, people just started to get silence except for call outs. And that was just draining to me.

[Tyrilion]

Literally turned to into Op getting torn to pieces

[Fred Skinner]

If designers find their remaining customers are doing content just for the reward, not for the enjoyment, then maybe they need to rethink their game design and reward structure.

That is because i do no dungeons. No matter what they drop. Because i dont think dungeons are enjoying. The last time i played dungeons was in Catacylsm. Before that they were fun.

[Aphrel]

The fact that you get the same ilvl from M+ as raiding is just awful. Why would anyone raid? Even Method has only defeated Jaina 2 times. Why farm her more? They get better gear from M+

The vast majority of methods gear coems from buying boe drops and doing the easier mythic raid bosses with splitruns.

Mythic+ is only really farmed for specific itemslots like trinkets.

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they should remove the weekly item. Its enough to get residium from the chest. getting a 410 from a piss easy m+10 dung is just laughable.

[Argorwal]

i played Disc Priest until Zandalari Trolls were released and i'm playing monk now
my friend played Guardian Druid, now Prot pala

so yes i know your pain and its alot more easier now with mistweaver/pala

so ya i know exactly what you are talking about, Disc wouldn't even be invited for a key with grievious on it and some others affixes but Holy is totally doable because i played both specs

your problem with holy priest in higher keys is not the spec, its the mentality of the people wanting only the best healer that brings good heal+utility and in this case nothing beats Resto Druid because of combat ress

if the other healers had combat ress we would see alot more variety on the healer boards but Blizzard can't see this simple thing

Yay more homogenizing of classes!

[Soon-TM]

Yay more homogenizing of classes!

The problem is that we as players have to choose between high end content (mythic raids, high M+, I'm not going to open the PvP can of worms) or proper class design, each with its own strengths and weaknesses.

[Dakara]

I agree, Mythic+ is garbage. Grinding the same dungeons for 2 years just to get the same loot at a new ilvl each season has got to be the the laziest game design I've seen in WOW.

But I'm no longer in the target demographic, and that's why the topic is often so hotly debated.

Blizzard is slowly transitioning WOW into a Seasonal Esport game, and those of us who came here for the raiding will slowly be replaced by the new target audience. The Mythic+ crowd.

The RPG in MMORPG was lost from WOW a very long time ago, although it's debatable how much it was even there to begin with... I sometimes think modern WOW has more in common with MOBA's than it does with the MMO's that came before it.

It caters more to the instant gratification and fast paced action (for an RPG) crowd than it does to the old school MMORPG gamers who enjoy the journey as much as the destination. Perhaps that's why they're finally pushing classic? To get us old bastards out of their "Modern WOW" so they can complete the transition and kill off raiding entirely? Who knows.

I keep asking myself why Blizzard would push 5 man Content in a game with 36 specs, likely more to be added, but then I look around. It's World of Alt-Craft... many players swap class/spec depending on the Affixes each week. Again, it's like a Moba except instead of buying a new character you level one with Heirlooms and XP pots. But give it time, once the raiding crowd is pushed out, not doubt you'll be able to buy pre-made characters for M+ pushes. /shrug

[Aggrophobic]

I agree, Mythic+ is garbage. Grinding the same dungeons for 2 years just to get the same loot at a new ilvl each season has got to be the the laziest game design I've seen in WOW.

But I'm no longer in the target demographic, and that's why the topic is often so hotly debated.

Blizzard is slowly transitioning WOW into a Seasonal Esport game, and those of us who came here for the raiding will slowly be replaced by the new target audience. The Mythic+ crowd.

The RPG in MMORPG was lost from WOW a very long time ago, although it's debatable how much it was even there to begin with... I sometimes think modern WOW has more in common with MOBA's than it does with the MMO's that came before it.

It caters more to the instant gratification and fast paced action (for an RPG) crowd than it does to the old school MMORPG gamers who enjoy the journey as much as the destination. Perhaps that's why they're finally pushing classic? To get us old bastards out of their "Modern WOW" so they can complete the transition and kill off raiding entirely? Who knows.

I keep asking myself why Blizzard would push 5 man Content in a game with 36 specs, likely more to be added, but then I look around. It's World of Alt-Craft... many players swap class/spec depending on the Affixes each week. Again, it's like a Moba except instead of buying a new character you level one with Heirlooms and XP pots. But give it time, once the raiding crowd is pushed out, not doubt you'll be able to buy pre-made characters for M+ pushes. /shrug

Then again, in the past you got pretty much nothing new for 2 years and you were content with that. Whats the harm in having something to do for a longer period of time? The amount of extra stuff added in patches has not be reduced so I fail to see the big issue here.

[Dakara]

Then again, in the past you got pretty much nothing new for 2 years and you were content with that. Whats the harm in having something to do for a longer period of time? The amount of extra stuff added in patches has not be reduced so I fail to see the big issue here.

Not at all, the longest content drought iirc was SOO at the end of MOP which was slightly over a year.... and I don't think anyone was content with it.

But it's not about about the content per patch, more the clear push towards Mythic + and MDI, shifting the focus away from raiding. Some players will support this while others wont.

[Aggrophobic]

Not at all, the longest content drought iirc was SOO at the end of MOP which was slightly over a year.... and I don't think anyone was content with it.

But it's not about about the content per patch, more the clear push towards Mythic + and MDI, shifting the focus away from raiding. Some players will support this while others wont.

Indeed but it's pretty clear that more players are able to do M+ compared to mythic raiding. It makes perfect sense for Blizzard to put effort into M+.
Now, I've been a raider for years and if it wasn't for IRL getting in the way I would still be. I think raids are way more fun but they do take a silly amount of time and focusing so much of the content on so few players is not a smart move. Simple as that.

[Jastall]

Does M+ have issues? Yes, such as the overreliance on trash, lopsided affix difficulties, perfectible loot system, raider.io woes, and poor balance at the high levels due to disparity in throughput and (more importantly) class utility.

But as a core idea it's great, and in actual implementation it's a lot of fun that revitalized dungeons and made them viable content for everyone for the first time in this game's entire history. I do several keys/week for fun and to push my skills, unless the affixes are utterly awful that is. It's a lot more accessible on the fly than a dedicated raid is as well.

The people wanting content removed because they don't like it are a bigger plague on this game's design than anything Blizzard has ever done, as well.

[dacoolist]

Does M+ have issues? Yes, such as the overreliance on trash, lopsided affix difficulties, perfectible loot system, raider.io woes, and poor balance at the high levels due to disparity in throughput and (more importantly) class utility.

But as a core idea it's great, and in actual implementation it's a lot of fun that revitalized dungeons and made them viable content for everyone for the first time in this game's entire history. I do several keys/week for fun and to push my skills, unless the affixes are utterly awful that is. It's a lot more accessible on the fly than a dedicated raid is as well.

The people wanting content removed because they don't like it are a bigger plague on this game's design than anything Blizzard has ever done, as well.

I agree fully with everything you said EXCEPT Raider IO. The reason R IO works is that it's something people can use to determine if you've gone through everything.. basically the thick of it. Do I always care about RIO.. no. Does it get me into groups with ease: Yes. Is it hard to get 1000 RIO.. Hell NO lol: If I can easily do it, almost ANYONE in the WoW community can do it. You just have to run each dungeon, then start pushing your own key. After you start pushing you'll have a higher IO, eventually you'll be running 10's then eventually likely 11's, MAYBE even 12's.. (I have some 13's in time on those easy weeks)

My point is that R IO is the only THING showing someones dedication outside of iLvl.. and iLvl can be pure luck these days.. I've seen People have 418 ilvl and have NEVER stepped foot in any raid AT ALL.. just goes to show right

[Jastall]

I agree fully with everything you said EXCEPT Raider IO. The reason R IO works is that it's something people can use to determine if you've gone through everything.. basically the thick of it. Do I always care about RIO.. no. Does it get me into groups with ease: Yes. Is it hard to get 1000 RIO.. Hell NO lol: If I can easily do it, almost ANYONE in the WoW community can do it. You just have to run each dungeon, then start pushing your own key. After you start pushing you'll have a higher IO, eventually you'll be running 10's then eventually likely 11's, MAYBE even 12's.. (I have some 13's in time on those easy weeks)

My point is that R IO is the only THING showing someones dedication outside of iLvl.. and iLvl can be pure luck these days.. I've seen People have 418 ilvl and have NEVER stepped foot in any raid AT ALL.. just goes to show right

I do think RIO is a necessary evil, but it's an evil nevertheless due to community misuse. A Blizzard-made metric might hopefully curb some of the nonsense that comes with it such as people demanding ridiculous IOs for +10s or wanting to only run meta comps in +12s, but the misplaced elitism will always remain I'm afraid, in part because you can't replace players in M+ so your initial choices have to be good.

[Deaged]

High M+ keys are just as challenging as mythic raiding, so what's your problem? The real issue is, 10 should not be the cap. It should be +15 at minimum and it should award an item in your weekly chest equal to mythic raid tier, then they should DELETE warforging and titanforging from the game. I don't have time to raid on a schedule because I'm an airline pilot. But I have time on my days off to push a couple keys.