A Fun Look to the Past - Old Blue Posts about Talent Tree Evolution

[Big Thanks]

In the majority of cases, no not really.
Unless you see something as the TBC Destro lock as a successful hybrid build, but i doubt shadowbolt spam is what you have in mind.

Even your lovechild called DK's had barely any changes, because as said earlier, the rotation betwen each spec was rather similiar.



I doubt Rift is a good example when looking at its overall state.

You simply dont understand us "snowflake customizers".
We are homeless because there isnt any game on the market right now like WotlK kinds of customization...or old Rifts customization.

[ManiaCCC]

In the majority of cases, no not really.
Unless you see something as the TBC Destro lock as a successful hybrid build, but i doubt shadowbolt spam is what you have in mind.

Even your lovechild called DK's had barely any changes, because as said earlier, the rotation betwen each spec was rather similiar.



I doubt Rift is a good example when looking at its overall state.

I am talking mostly from PvP perspective, but changing just few talents here and there changed basically whole gameplay plan for me. One most notable difference was my weird take on Warlock.. My Destro build gave up Conflagrate for Curse of Exhaustion. Just changing 5 talents I went from this burst based caster to more control oriented caster. It was like day and night in PvP.

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HOLY shit the talent trees were bigger than i remembered ahah

I loved your post Lythelia, thank you so much for posting, i just didnt know what to say as a reply.
When i saw Rifts talent trees i had a boner, but decided to never play the game

Problem with WotLK trees is, that hybridization is actually quite limited. IMO, TBC had the best tree. There was enough options but also you were able to hybridization your build. You really can't do that in WotLK in some meaningful way.

[Kralljin]

I am talking mostly from PvP perspective, but changing just few talents here and there changed basically whole gameplay plan for me. One most notable difference was my weird take on Warlock.. My Destro build gave up Conflagrate for Curse of Exhaustion. Just changing 5 talents I went from this burst based caster to more control oriented caster. It was like day and night in PvP.

To quote myself:

This is why most people that want the talent system back come from the following classes:
Rogue
Warlock
Death Knight
Mage

[ManiaCCC]

To quote myself:

Add Warrior. I had a lot of fun with my funky builds with warrior in PvP

[Selah]

To quote myself:

Don't forget Shaman, had some fun builds there. I forgot when the Shadow/Disc priest build was... TBC?

That said though, this isn't much of an argument because we just don't have the stats to support this. I don't doubt that the DPS classes or specs with two DPS trees looked back on them more fondly than others. Lets say that's the case though and that is the majority of people enjoying it, wouldn't it make more sense to have the trees of the other classes worked on instead of pushing us all into such rigid classes?

[Kralljin]

Don't forget Shaman, had some fun builds there.

Nope, they didn't, speaking from experience here.

For Elemental, there were no really decent talents buried within Resto / Enhance, same story for Resto, Elemental had decent talents for Enhance, but those deep in Enhancement were just flat better.

I forgot when the Shadow/Disc priest build was... TBC?

Vanilla, died because:
1.SP became viable
2.Both Disc and Holy got more output talents

One of the many things people overlook in this discussion, in Vanilla, talents were way less impactful than they were in TBC / Wotlk, meaning you could still do respectable output just being wearing the correct gear for a given role.

With each tree however getting more and more powerful talents, your "baseline" ability to perform a given role (such as healing) became way worse than in Vanilla, because the game was designed around having all the powerful talents from the healing tree.

That said though, this isn't much of an argument because we just don't have the stats to support this.

That argument kinda goes both ways.
At the end of the day, you have to draw the line somewhere, unless you want to seriously argue over something like a 20/20/21 build on any given class.
Simply because it was possible, doesn't mean it was good, not even close.

Add Warrior. I had a lot of fun with my funky builds with warrior in PvP

Nope.

[ManiaCCC]

Nope.

Than I believe you don't understand why people are asking for old talent system as much as you think

[Aggrophobic]

I played several years with one system and several years with other system and for me personally, the first system, while it was flawed, it was actually much more fun for me.

Current system is still flawed and removed options from me..basically made whole system just boring. Don't try to argue fun part, because that's subjective. You can tell that you prefer current system, but you can't argue that current system is still same fun for me as the previous one.

์It removed the talets you had to pick in order to not suck. Nothing changed unless you actually sucked at the game. Well, you got more actual options now, that did change I guess.

[ManiaCCC]

์It removed the talets you had to pick in order to not suck. Nothing changed unless you actually sucked at the game. Well, you got more actual options now, that did change I guess.

That's BS but whatever floats your boat.

[Aggrophobic]

That's BS but whatever floats your boat.

No, the passive ones that gave you extra damage were baked into the classes themselves. No "BS" there at all.

[ManiaCCC]

No, the passive ones that gave you extra damage were baked into the classes themselves. No "BS" there at all.

Maybe you would have a point, if they would not gut classes of their core skills. You have Shamans without totems, Hunters without traps and melee skills, Mages without frost spells, warlocks without curses.. but hey, you can choose between 3 different AoE skills..bravo..also, you can change them on the fly - such customization, much wow.

No seriously, new system doesn't provide what the old one. They even said that in their post "Old system is too complex, we can hardly handle that". If you enjoy current system, more power to you, but it's not even close to old system.

[Selah]

Nope, they didn't, speaking from experience here.

As am I, a few builds there. You didn't always take them to whatever content you were doing that day but that was the case for every single class and build.

For Elemental, there were no really decent talents buried within Resto / Enhance, same story for Resto, Elemental had decent talents for Enhance, but those deep in Enhancement were just flat better.

Enhancement had better talents, yes. Doesn't mean it was the only tree you invested in.

Vanilla, died because:
1.SP became viable
2.Both Disc and Holy got more output talents

Just like every class to today. Builds come and go, the meta for each classes changes.

One of the many things people overlook in this discussion, in Vanilla, talents were way less impactful than they were in TBC / Wotlk, meaning you could still do respectable output just being wearing the correct gear for a given role.

That's a half accurate statement. Some of the specs just outright wouldn't function (not that they were super functioning to start) if you didn't invest a certain amount of points into them and picked up specific talents. Druids and Paladins were great examples of this.

With each tree however getting more and more powerful talents, your "baseline" ability to perform a given role (such as healing) became way worse than in Vanilla, because the game was designed around having all the powerful talents from the healing tree.

That's true, the game began to be built around players investing more points into an individual tree. That was an intentional change though and doesn't speak to what the game would've behaved like if they had built it intentionally another way.

That argument kinda goes both ways.
At the end of the day, you have to draw the line somewhere, unless you want to seriously argue over something like a 20/20/21 build on any given class.

A hybrid doesn't have to be a set amount of allocated points into trees. It doesn't have to be a fundamental change to rotation, that's far too restrictive. It can do those things, or maybe it allows you to tank dual-wielding instead of sword and shield. My standard for this has been a noticeable deviance from the intended play style.

Simply because it was possible, doesn't mean it was good, not even close.

This argument doesn't hold water, I'm sorry. This statement is true of every iteration of every class, spec, talent, glyph, and any way the players interact with their classes and has been true from the start of the game and it will be true until the end of the game. Something not being "good" (in whichever way you're defining it) doesn't mean it's "bad" to let the players have access to or support.

Right now, which classes are good for CoS? What about 3s? What if you're a BM Hunter?

What if your class is behind on DPS on every way we can measure it on live? Should we just cut the class from the game?

Again, as I've said before. Things are exactly the same now as they have been since the beginning. There's a meta, some classes are better than others. Some talents are better than others.

That said, the Wrath trees were large and clunky and unnecessary. If your trees are that large, something is wrong. Could you imagine what they'd look like today? I mean, we're talking 5 MORE ROWS PER SPEC of abilities.

As I suggested before though, I think there is a nice middle-ground that works.

[Kralljin]

Enhancement had better talents, yes. Doesn't mean it was the only tree you invested in.

The point is that "variation" or "costumization", let alone impactful one, wasn't a really thing.

Just like every class to today. Builds come and go, the meta for each classes changes.

...yes?
I don't get what you're trying to say as far as my original post is concerned.

That's a half accurate statement.

It isn't.
The discrepancy between a not specialized healer and a specialized healer grew with each expansion.

That's true, the game began to be built around players investing more points into an individual tree. That was an intentional change though and doesn't speak to what the game would've behaved like if they had built it intentionally another way.

The is problem again that you cannot design every tree with another one in mind, it doesn't work if those trees do not have a common ground as far as playstyle is concerned.

This argument doesn't hold water, I'm sorry.

It does, you have to draw a line between viable and nonviable somewhere.

This common ground is at least that every spec is viable within their certain role, perhaps not up to the highest difficulty, but you can play any spec up until Jaina Mythic without lagging extremely behind in terms of performance.

That said, the Wrath trees were large and clunky and unnecessary. If your trees are that large, something is wrong. Could you imagine what they'd look like today? I mean, we're talking 5 MORE ROWS PER SPEC of abilities.

Because Wotlk talent trees did essentially two things:
-They needed the talents in order to develop something resembling a unique rotation towards a spec. (Taste for Blood, Hotstreak, Brain freeze, etc.)
-Dumped basically random beneficial talents deep into the tree in order to combat hybrid specs.

In a way, Wotlk talent trees did what Blizzard has done in Cata but in a soft way, Hybrid specs were for the most part pretty dead because you gimped your character too damn hard by skipping over certain talents.

No seriously, new system doesn't provide what the old one. They even said that in their post "Old system is too complex, we can hardly handle that". If you enjoy current system, more power to you, but it's not even close to old system.

There is a world of difference between complexity for the developers or for the players.

[huth]

IMO
The current talent system was the "ultimate surrender" by Blizzard in admitiing Raiding and Arena 3x3 as the ultimate form...No...the ONE true form of WoW's content.
Everything must be balanced around this 2 things...therefore there is zero tolerance for "player created fun" in all other kinds of content.

It isn't, at least, not like that. It's their acceptance of the fact that the system was fundamentally unworkable, regardless of what content it is applied to, and would necessarily consist mostly of filler.

[ManiaCCC]

There is a world of difference between complexity for the developers or for the players.

I am aware of that, but even they said, it's doable, but they just don't want to. So we just went from one extreme, complex customization (at least for developers), to other extreme, no customization at all (aside of pvp talents I guess)..

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It isn't, at least, not like that. It's their acceptance of the fact that the system was fundamentally unworkable, regardless of what content it is applied to, and would necessarily consist mostly of filler.

It was workable for like 7 years. That wasn't problem at all. That system, while flawed, was still good. It's still used to these days in several other games

[Icechaosss]

I want to play my class.
I want one set of talents, that work in everything.
I do not want crap that only works in PVE.
I do not want crap that only works in PVP.

My class, I want to play it, whatever the tools, I want them to work all the time, not some of the time.

This crap in breaking talents into pve/pvp only drives me crazy.

This, I disagree with. I, personally, want choices. I want to make decisions.

I feel like what you're describing is something you'd see in Guild Wars, since your kit is available most of the time to always switch.

[ManiaCCC]

This, I disagree with. I, personally, want choices. I want to make decisions.

I feel like what you're describing is something you'd see in Guild Wars, since your kit is available most of the time to always switch.

How wanting both pve and pvp talents working all the time is removing the choice?

[Trumpcat]

I agree with these blue posts. Your ideas are bad and stupid. Old talents sucked. You are not getting them back on retail ever.

You want to play outdate game with outdated mechanics, classic will be soon there for you. Could you refrain from posting your horrible threads about "old good wow" and just piss off to classic forums? Thanks

What rainbow flag guy said.

Also the only problem I currently have with talents is that the rows or options haven't increased in a while and while we did have a bunch of new "talents" in Legion via the artifacts and legendaries we lost them and the passive azerite bonuses fail to deliver the enrichment and variety the classes desperately need.

Otherwise looking forward to people comparing the old talent trees with the current talent rows when both are live.

[Kralljin]

I am aware of that, but even they said, it's doable, but they just don't want to. So we just went from one extreme, complex customization (at least for developers), to other extreme, no customization at all (aside of pvp talents I guess).

"Not wanting" is probably putting it rather friendly, rather that they feared lots of balance and design issues going forward.

It's probably about as doable as classic servers before they announced them in 2017... doable yes, but not without massive issues on Blizzards end and possible downsides for the players themselves.

to other extreme, no customization at all (aside of pvp talents I guess).

Personally i think the bigger problem is that Blizzard dropped the ball on talent design.
Especially if they just decide to turn previous baseline abilities into talents, that's just bad design.

That aside, i think the MoP talent design still offers more options as far as playstyle is concerned, depending on the class / spec.

[Selah]

The point is that "variation" or "costumization", let alone impactful one, wasn't a really thing.

It was in niche ways, they just had limited uses and weren't common. Doesn't mean they didn't exist or weren't worthwhile when applied right.

...yes?
I don't get what you're trying to say as far as my original post is concerned.

I'm just highlighting my point here.

It isn't.
The discrepancy between a not specialized healer and a specialized healer grew with each expansion.

Correct, but your claim that you could do your role effectively in vanilla with just the right gear isn't right. They were extremely dependent on those talents in vanilla. Not that gearing made much sense in vanilla to start.

The is problem again that you cannot design every tree with another one in mind, it doesn't work if those trees do not have a common ground as far as playstyle is concerned.

Right, but the classes were built so that you would get your core kit just through leveling and buying ranks. From there you decided how you wanted to modify your class with talents. The problem there is that you were getting the base tool kit for your entire class (base toolkits for all three specs) and then you would pick your specialization, and within that spec you would get the toolkit to enable that play-style.

I'm suggesting a different way of applying the talent trees to the classes so that the core play-style of the specs isn't compromised but allows players to actually modify the class and how it plays.

It does, you have to draw a line between viable and nonviable somewhere.

Raiding isn't the only content in the game. I'm not suggesting making a million different types of hybrids viable for raiding. I'm suggesting leaving the door open for players to find these niche builds and enjoying them. Saying "oh, it's not good for raiding" isn't an argument against something being open to the players. Using that reasoning we should scrap anything PvP related.

This common ground is at least that every spec is viable within their certain role, perhaps not up to the highest difficulty, but you can play any spec up until Jaina Mythic without lagging extremely behind in terms of performance.

Right, exactly. You've just proven my point for me.

Because Wotlk talent trees did essentially two things:
-They needed the talents in order to develop something resembling a unique rotation towards a spec. (Taste for Blood, Hotstreak, Brain freeze, etc.)
-Dumped basically random beneficial talents deep into the tree in order to combat hybrid specs.

Yeah, and the funny thing is, they're still doing as much tuning each patch and expansion as they were before talents left.

In a way, Wotlk talent trees did what Blizzard has done in Cata but in a soft way, Hybrid specs were for the most part pretty dead because you gimped your character too damn hard by skipping over certain talents.

Yeah, this is the route Trion went too. Unfortunately for them, when you demolish a massive pillar of your game like that... it tends to bite you in the ass.