China arrests filmmaker Deng Chuanbin because of Tweet

[Corvus]

He has no connection to China, he just hates the West. He sees China and Russia as being anti-west so he defends whatever they do.

The funny thing is that both Russia and China are turning out far more fascist that the West that he derides. But fascists were one party states as well so I guess that it makes sense.

[Leyre]

He chuanbin there.

you are an ass, and i want to be friends with you

[Triceron]

I mean say whatever the fuck you want about the West and I will agree a lot of the time, because we have issues, but at least we don't have fucking life-long presidents. That shit is such a dead giveaway of an oppressive state and it has been for hundreds of years.

That's because we live in relatively new nations with only hundreds years of history rather than thousands, 1/4 the population, triple the economy and living in a nation built on the backs of slaves and stolen land. I mean we're well in recognition of this, so that's why we have the freedom to criticize our own governments and whatnot. That's why immigrant families come here, it's technically a better life. But at the same time we also face the unique (dare I say first-world) problems granted by all this freedom - freedom to spread misinformation, freedom to change the government around and tear down systems that were voted in just 4 years prior, freedom to go forwards while going backwards. There's no true suffering faced here, few of us living here have faced actual terrorism or actual war (at least in NA). Hell, an epidemic is one of our least concerns, all things considered.

When we're talking about a country that has such a high population where people can freely move around within the nation, the fear of terrorism is substantial and true. With a history of being exploited by foreign powers and division of the country from internal politics and strife going back centuries, even millenia, it's no wonder that China has reinvented itself the way it has. I mean if you delve into Chinese history, it's been taken over by outside powers and inside powers hundreds of times over. The current government is probably the strongest ever seen in the history of their nation, but it becomes very fragile if left open to the same freedoms we have in the west. We bicker amongst ourselves by favouring left/right ideals and tear at the foundations of our own government every time there's a shift. That already happened in China and they saw the results of internal strife- it allowed the Japanese to invade China. They aren't going to make the same mistake again after the revolution, and it's why they're so zealous in stomping out any religious-based terrorism they deem a threat to their society, be it Falun Gong, Uyghur muslims or others. It's totalitarian and it's strict, and it works. We see this resocialization as a bad thing only, and it's a terrible thing, but in the context of the Chinese government it's working towards a unified country, not one separated by culture or creed and left with radical ideals that can tear away at the systems they've worked so hard to build.

Their stance comes from a deep rooted history of internal conflict and having seen how internal politics lead to a complete fracture of their nation. What we observe here from the West is through tinted glasses - How can we judge a nation that is clearly tackling its own issues when we're unable to tackle our own? A handful of refugees enter the country and the government and society flips out. One terrorist event in the US turned the country around. Well, this is what China has been dealing with internally since... forever. It's a damn shame this is what is happening, but at the same time at least they're dealing with the terrorism problem rather than pretending upping security and diplomacy has lead to anything constructive. Unfortunately there is no sure-fire solution to religiously-fueled terrorism. That's the simple truth.

Bad example incoming, but I feel like it's looking at a zombie apocalypse. We're all treating zombies like they're a threat we have to contain, while China is trying to stomp it out completely through extreme means and breaking whatever human rights to do it. We're judging them now for their methods, but who will win out in the long run? We don't know if we can cure the zombies, even if we try our best to do so. But there might never be a cure, so we might be the losers in the long run and it would be our hubris and foolishness that leads us to our demise. We're not even thankful that we are a nation far from conflict.

[Corvus]

That's because we live in relatively new nations with only hundreds years of history rather than thousands, 1/4 the population, triple the economy and living in a nation built on the backs of slaves and stolen land. I mean we're well in recognition of this, so that's why we have the freedom to criticize our own governments and whatnot.

The US isn't the only nation in the West. Europe is old and wasn't built on slavery and stolen land.

[shadowmouse]

The difference between the aftermath of Kent State and Tiananmen Square should be pretty evident for anyone not engaging in whataboutism.

You are capable of being more nuanced than that. Each was a tragedy, each was a symbol in it's time, both are now old enough that there are adults who did not live through those days. Yet somehow it seems people who have at best a loose understanding of events in China (for example, Tank Man wasn't killed in the moments after that picture) keep pushing the old regime change dialogue. Since there aren't exactly a lot of Chinese, or even Asian posters here, Hubcap's threads are basically playing into hyping up the echo chamber -- look at the responses in them to South Korean or Vietnamese posters who don't fall in line. Was the aftermath different? In a way, but mainly because Kent State got swept under the carpet and is barely remembered. Tank Man too, really. Perhaps Huang Huang really believes, but I don't discount that this was a stunt to keep him in the good graces of foreign donors

You spent your activity in the inflatable sculpture thread you mentioned convincing people how totally chill China is about Tienanmen square and how they don't suppress information about it.

One point three billion people and a history of warlords and cults of personality, China is the social equivalent of a crowded theater. If your reading of my words was that China is totally chill about it you're trying to see things as black and white when they aren't.

Since I'm told you're from Poland, I don't particularly have a dispute with you. I wasn't there, but I watched the early stories about Solidarity. Those were important events that fit their times, and you would be rightly proud of them. China is working with a larger population, spread over a lot more land, and based on different cultural values, but I can understand if you choose to discount those factors.

Is what I said inconsistent? No, things aren't really as two dimensional as internet squabbling tends to be. The US is "chill" with dead baby jokes, jokes about terrorists, or jokes about bombs. They aren't illegal on their face, but tell a bomb joke in the wrong place at the wrong time and don't be surprised if you end up on some lists and possibly having some nice folks talk to you. I've already had class discussions about Tank Man and other topics. Nobody bothers to give a damn because bungee isn't much of a public figure, but Huang Huang tries to be and that puts him much more under the lens.

Since debate here tends to get sorted on some flavor of red team/blue team (or alt-right vs. whatever the current buzzword is) let me address my politics directly. I did my time in the American political system, in a pretty corrupt eddy of it (corrupt, as in the governor later got jailed for some of the things). My practice was focused on international law and international trade. I came here to see things first hand, and I stay because I enjoy the students. My interest in political systems of all stripes at this point can be summed up with a quote from Deng Xioaping "it doesn't matter if it is a cat is black or white as long as it catches mice". Personally, I find that China is increasingly going back to being a bureaucracy, with "the Party" filling in the traditional role of the Emperor sitting walled away in the Forbidden City. That seems to work for them though.

What I find missing from these threads is ironically a sense of individuality. China gets talked about as if it is a termite mound, with a queen, drones, and warriors. It isn't. The same regulation gets read and enforced different ways from province to province and often from city to city. The Party is no more monolithic than either the Democrats or the Republicans, both of which will tell you what their platform stands for while at the same time there are all sorts of internal factions.

"barely exists" is a weird way to try to hand wave. Especially when you go on to admit it is terrible and is in the works.

What should we call it then, Schroedinger's Directive? It is something that has been announced, it isn't really in effect although there are various experiments, and since it doesn't really exist it is as vague as similar attempts to address things like social media outside of China. I can't say I've heard of a single one where people think it is a great example of lawmaking.

Are you ethnic Chinese?

And right there, the Yellow Peril aspect of his posting becomes clear.

I know because I used to do the same until I learned about it. So much Western interpretation through filters.

Makes a difference doesn't it.

[NED funded]

They couldn't have just taken down the picture?

Just seems like another in the long line of China's government being comically thin-skinned about anything that could be interpreted as being critical of them, in doing so only reinforcing exactly why people are so critical of them.

How long can they keep this going before a revolt, seems like the only question worth asking. They're utilizing the modern advances in surveillance and human control to prolong it, but that's all I see it as, prolonging the inevitable. Would be funny if it backfired so hard that the resulting people declared technology evil and basically became Amish.

They are going to be fine as long as they can get those results, its going to be epic when China enters its first recession in a while. The party has been trying its best to prevent it at all costs with billions of stimulus and tons of CO2 emmited as a result, but it can't go on like that forever.

[infinit]

On average we have a thread bashing China every four days over the last 5 months.
Half of them come from Hubcap.

it deserves a lot more bashing

[P for Pancetta]

I visited China’s capital not six weeks ago for business. Assigned to me a whole team of people to make sure I was as happy as one can be, a personal driver, a guide, a translator (my PA speaks Chinese fluently but it’s always better to have people think we can’t hear what they say), some burly looking guys for security and waygu steak for breakfast. Gotta love communism.

- - - Updated - - -

On average we have a thread bashing China every four days over the last 5 months.
Half of them come from Hubcap.

Most of those threads are just news articles though, nationbashing is an enforced rule on this forum.

[Shalcker]

Democratic communism? AHHAHAHAHAHHAHA Or did you think that people would like to stay in union, no matter how much changed, which got them in there with force? Right...

It was communism in name only for long time anyway.

Majority wanted to stay in union - and considering all wars and nationalistic flare-ups this breakout created, not to mention economic collapse from broken supply chains, they were right.

It created millions of extra deaths. One of worst catastrophes of modern times.

Yes, the only way. Show me another. Let me guess, China's way? Where you are OK as long as you never speak up? xD

You know, Glasnost? Perestroyka? People were speaking up for long time already with no repercussions when breakdown happened.

[Mormolyce]

Obviously if size of population and economic potential are relevant -- which I haven't seen anyone try to establish (and would probably result in fewer posts from Finland) -- then we should have a hell of a lot more posts from India that aren't love and black magic spam. Come to think of it, I think I post most of the few we do see. This has very little to do with population and a great deal more to do with America having chosen China as our FOTM enemy. After all, we declared the USSR defeated, and ISIS too, so something has to keep the bucks rolling.

Or maybe it's due to China's consistent poor human rights record?

We most likely don't talk about it often enough. The biggest country on Earth, an up and coming superpower, is a corrupt dystopia. That should be bigger news than whatever outrage is sweeping Twitter today.

[ParanoiD84]

it deserves a lot more bashing

It's a nice change of pace from all the us bashing threads we have.

[shadowmouse]

Or maybe it's due to China's consistent poor human rights record?

Then let's have clear, rational discussions on matters instead of thinly veiled Yellow Peril stuff. Seriously, the guy posting most of these just whipped out "are you ethnic Chinese" in a reply and anyone who has actually visited China and had different experiences is automatically dismissed out of hand -- page back and look how @De thuong
gets blown off. It isn't about human rights, it is a stage for people to throw around stuff like "shithole" without getting infracted.

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

And right there, the Yellow Peril aspect of his posting becomes clear.

You should just leave.

No one wants you here.

[Independent voter]

Then let's have clear, rational discussions on matters instead of thinly veiled Yellow Peril stuff. Seriously, the guy posting most of these just whipped out "are you ethnic Chinese" in a reply and anyone who has actually visited China and had different experiences is automatically dismissed out of hand -- page back and look how @De thuong
gets blown off. It isn't about human rights, it is a stage for people to throw around stuff like "shithole" without getting infracted.

In case we forget tank man was the guy who stopped the Chinese military from slaughtering students in Tienanmen Square.



At one point tank man even climbed up on the tank to talk to the tank's crew.

Why did the Chinese government execute tank man?

[Vivapin8]

Ah, good! Then you're a citizen of China and qualified to comment on what China is or should be? No? Then I suppose that we'll be closing this and all future Hubcap on China threads because by that standard nobody here is qualified to talk about them.

Using a more detached standard though, she has been to China and lived there for a bit. Those would seem to be first hand impressions. Most of the ZOMFG China is de Debbil posters here -- I can't think of any who currently fall outside of this group -- haven't lived in China for any sort of extended period. I can't recall any that have even done tourist trips.

Notice the split. People who subscribe to China is de Debbil and anyone who disagrees has been brainwashed thus proving China is de Debbil tend to be people believing what they read on the Internet. People like @De thuong or @Deldavala who have been there disagree, probably to varying degrees according to background.

I, of course, am actually Xi Jinping drunk posting, but for the sake of argument let's assume I am the persona I regularly claim on here. As an American, and thus by your criteria qualified to comment on matters American, I'm an academic similar in age to Ghostpanther. Personally, from the perspective of my age and looking from the outside which means I haven't gradually acclimated to post 9/11 America, we missed the individual rights bus not later than the War on Drugs. Tank Man gets hyped every year because he can be used for propaganda talking points such as Hubcap's threads, but nobody seems to remember Kent State and the shootings are handwaved away. I didn't elect Donald Trump to be my thin skinned, dictatorial leader who appears to have ambitions of establishing at least dynastic control over the country; he was "elected" despite the common vote (not particularly democratic) by a system that is vulnerable to manipulation and gerrymandering. I'm not a citizen of China, but I have lived here almost 20 years, and the other hundred people going through subway security during the morning crush hour are usually Chinese. They pass through metal detectors, they get wanded, their carried liquids are often analyzed -- all of the things I go through too -- and although caution about a subway attack similar to the sarin attack in Tokyo is one of the concerns, somehow we all do it without the subway security people kneading our genitals and our shoes stay on. Getting on an airplane in the US used to be like that, even though hijacking was a risk. Nope, not now. Having your genitals kneaded "for public safety" is blandly accepted. I read threads here on police shootings in the US and I frequently find them mind boggling because I've grown accustomed to an environment where police do not routinely carry firearms. And make no mistake if criminals want to have guns here they do, those range from garage guns to modern firearms.

With all the talk about Tank Man though, let's remember another day in May. You guys did remember it, right?



“This should remind us all once again that when dissent turns to violence, it invites tragedy.” Richard Nixon after Kent State shootings

You can post picture like this and rest of the free world without fear of going to jail or worse....do the same sh¡t in China and you are fu[ked....but guys like you never see the light, like all those MF in my country defending the Venezuelan government and maduro....

[Post]

I already gave a link disproving misconceptions on the program.

The Twitter propaganda that talks about parts of the system?

What should we call it then, Schroedinger's Directive? It is something that has been announced, it isn't really in effect although there are various experiments, and since it doesn't really exist it is as vague as similar attempts to address things like social media outside of China. I can't say I've heard of a single one where people think it is a great example of lawmaking.

You can call it an awful idea. You can say it doesn't exist, but we're in a thread where a guy got arrested for posting something that could be seen as negative towards the government. It just doesn't have a number attached yet.

[shadowmouse]

You should just leave.

No one wants you here.

Spoils the echo, eh?

Why did the Chinese government execute tank man?

If they had, we would know.

Speculation continues to circulate about Tank Man’s fate. Thousands of Chinese nationals were detained and imprisoned for their involvement in the protests, some of them kept in jail for almost their entire lives. Others were executed. No one has been able to determine whether Tank Man was among them.
...
But it seems at least as plausible that the man disappeared back into his normal life. If he had left the country, he would have been free to speak out, according to Canadian journalist Jan Wang, who witnessed the confrontation. And if authorities had found him, they would have put him on public display, she told PBS. She believes there’s a good chance he’s alive and living quietly in China. The Information Centre for Human Rights and Democracy Movement in China said in 1998 that it had obtained official party documents that showed authorities had no idea what happened to him. In a 1990 interview with Barbara Walters, former Chinese leader Jiang Zemin said he couldn’t confirm (video) whether the man was arrested or not. He broke from speaking to Walters through an interpreter and said in English, “I think never, never killed.”

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/happe...195001207.html

You can post picture like this and rest of the free world without fear of going to jail or worse....do the same sh¡t in China and you are fu[ked

Which is probably less significant than you think. Different countries draw the line in different places and may have different hot buttons, but those lines do get drawn. For eighteen years the US had a ban on media coverage of returning war dead. Currently there are questions about US intentions to charge Assange. The bar is probably higher, but the Netherlands still have lese majesty laws. According to the idea of sovereignty, it is up to a country to make its own laws. The US, for example, often takes measures to see that internal policies aren't dictated by other nations.

we're in a thread where a guy got arrested for posting something that could be seen as negative towards the government.

Same as above really. The death penalty is generally viewed as something countries should have moved past, but the US and China both have it. The same idea that says each can have and enforce that penalty applies to this situation as well.

[Independent voter]

If they had, we would know.

Oh the Chinese government killed tank man, you know that. How many social credit points do you get for denying that?





How come the Chinese government will arrest you for posting this on twitter?

[Triceron]

Or maybe it's due to China's consistent poor human rights record?

We most likely don't talk about it often enough. The biggest country on Earth, an up and coming superpower, is a corrupt dystopia. That should be bigger news than whatever outrage is sweeping Twitter today.

Wait so what country standard are we using that isn't a 'corrupt dystopia'?

Every country has problems, that's why this isn't bigger news than whatever is sweeping Twitter today.

[Easo]

It was communism in name only for long time anyway.

Majority wanted to stay in union - and considering all wars and nationalistic flare-ups this breakout created, not to mention economic collapse from broken supply chains, they were right.

It created millions of extra deaths. One of worst catastrophes of modern times.

You know, Glasnost? Perestroyka? People were speaking up for long time already with no repercussions when breakdown happened.

Majority of WHO? Russians in Russia proper? Because Baltics clearly did not. We clearly did not want that, as our votes showed (choose whichever language you want https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E...B2%D0%B8%D0%B8)
Millions of extra deaths? Lolwhat? Are you confusing the Russian Civil war with the fall of USSR?

Yes, they were, and they were still getting oppressed because of that. Oh yes, they were. Real actions and agitations started in 1989, very quickly, very fast until it exploded out of control (and fucks in Moscow sent tanks to drive over civilians and OMON to shoot up local police as a response. Thankfully, there were some officers with different ideas, like a certain general, who sent field kitchens instead. Ahh, the butthurt it still causes).
Glasnost and perestroika were just words, without any salt. The last thing USSR ever "did".