WoW Classic Beta: Elite Mob Damage Comparison - Doesn't Add Up

[grexly75]

This is how elites used to work back in 2006. Something IS wrong in Classic beta for sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QDb1j2EfQ8

The problem is that video is using patch 1.9.2, and the current beta is using patch 1.12 and maybe their might have been mob tuning.. But we will never know because it has been so long ago..

[Deficineiron]

If hard comparisons of vintage video can be found for bad damage numbers, that would be helpful.

Even if damage numbers match up, that is only half the equation for dps. need to compare swing timers. longer swing/cast timers (or an internal cd for either) are a dps nerf.

I discussed in more detail here

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...8#post51243438

dps = damage per hit/attack speed. all you need to do to nerf damage while having the right 'numbers' per hit is increase swing/cast delays/speed/etc.

[Charge me Doctor]

Oof, I didn't know this was the level we were at. Ok: unlike you, I had actually read the OP before posting - the only thing Blizzard has proved is that one mob is doing the correct damage. I don't know if you played in Vanilla, but there were more than one elite mob. The OP presents other elite mobs that do far less (higher level elites, doing 1/4th of the damage of the mob Blizzard proved does appropriate damage) in order to start a discussion and question Blizzard.

Keep in mind (if you can) - I haven't claimed damage numbers are definitely off, but you've claimed they definitely aren't. Neither of us have any proof.

You do realize that it's not how testing works? OP provided bullshit evidence, without, you know, actual armour numbers, in different environments, with different parameters all the fucking time. One time he has thorns, other time he compares damage to a caster mob, third time he has ret aura on instead of armour.

I'm not buying into "tests" of this hack presented by OP, it's disingenuous to take him seriously, while handwaving blizzards response and expecting them to run tests on each and every elite in the game

[urasim]

The problem is that video is using patch 1.9.2, and the current beta is using patch 1.12 and maybe their might have been mob tuning.. But we will never know because it has been so long ago..

The problem isn't that it's a different patch. It's that it's a special case. That elite was notoriously hard to kill, and often killed you very easily.

The moral of the story is that some mobs did more than others. This is a good thing.

[Segus1992]

Do you really think all mobs should hit for the exact same amount of damage? That'd make for a shitty game, right?

That's not what I said, but one physical melee boss shouldn't do 4x more damage than another physical melee boss (Rethilgore is an SFK boss/miniboss in Classic) that's also higher level. In Vanilla, low level dungeon bosses barely did more damage (except for special cases) than normal elites anyway.

Also, all elites SHOULD do far more damage than normal mobs of similar level. Twice as much as a minimum.

The question here is not what is appropriate. People are whining about numbers being off compared to vanilla, they are not.
Plus I linked the video because you were claiming elites did at least double the damage compared to normal mobs. It's just an exemple but they clearly didn't here.

Yes a mage will take more damage but look : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTYvq1dPUjk
He is taking several rooms at once. Can't really see the damage because of shit quality but looks like it's only hitting in the 2-digits range. He is only in a bit of danger because he was taking like 20+ mobs and a boss at the same time.

He is surviving because he's kiting. You can tell just before he pops the second Iceblock that he's dropping in health really quickly. Again the boss barely matters, because Vanilla dungeon bosses (barring special cases such as final bosses) were essentially just normal elites with the occasional voice line and some unique abilities.

I don't know what 'people' are whining about - I think there's no proof that elites did this little damage in Vanilla, and I don't think we should be satisfied without proof seeing as Blizzard would have a reason to lower Classic difficulty.

[DrIvoRobotnik]

Behold a video from 2007, just two months after BC. No significant nerfs were made to the damage at that point to elites. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN7KfJ7ZKXc Damage is correct, we just used to use crap gear with little thought or care because we were leveling.

[Segus1992]

You do realize that it's not how testing works? OP provided bullshit evidence, without, you know, actual armour numbers, in different environments, with different parameters all the fucking time. One time he has thorns, other time he compares damage to a caster mob, third time he has ret aura on instead of armour.

I'm not buying into "tests" of this hack presented by OP, it's disingenuous to take him seriously, while handwaving blizzards response and expecting them to run tests on each and every elite in the game

Thorns doesn't affect damage taken, and caster mobs didn't do less damage per hit, they just sometimes had lower attack speed and would spend their time on spells instead of meleeing. Ret vs Devo is a minimal difference. He's showing a difference of a factor of 4, on a class with LESS armor in early levels (Druids).

Yes it isn't irrefutable proof, but it IS reason to have a discussion and question Blizzard.

The problem here is that Blizzard has the proof and we don't.

[Goldfingaz]

Vs



Herod hits Asmond for like 212-222 roughly (I'm not analyzing the entire thing) with all sorts of consumables
Herod hits This Druid 180-200

However, Herod's Cleave is doing 190ish damage to Asmond, where it's doing 250ish to the druid?

Cleave should be doing 110% damage, why is it doing less damage on Asmong than regular melee hits? Also note the new client has this hitting showing purple numbers where original was still just red.

I'm at work and can't focus on this entirely, so if someone wants to rip this apart feel free, I don't mind being wrong.

[oplawlz]

I'm not buying into "tests" of this hack presented by OP, it's disingenuous to take him seriously, while handwaving blizzards response and expecting them to run tests on each and every elite in the game

Ignoring the Op's crap video, it wouldn't be that much effort for blizzard to task an intern with making a spreadsheet of elite base damage stats and posting the results. It should at least get people to shut up about it for a while.

[Segus1992]

Behold a video from 2007, just two months after BC. No significant nerfs were made to the damage at that point to elites. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN7KfJ7ZKXc Damage is correct, we just used to use crap gear with little thought or care because we were leveling.

So a tank class, with TBC talents (which significantly lowered damage taken) and 6k HP (which at least means the gear is tank gear - Vanilla tanks had maybe 5k HP in T2 unbuffed) takes about 20 damage per hit from SM Cathedral mobs, which are 36 levels below him, and you think that's proof that 20 damage per hit is appropriate for a low level tank?

[urasim]

That's not what I said, but one physical melee boss shouldn't do 4x more damage than another physical melee boss (Rethilgore is an SFK boss/miniboss in Classic) that's also higher level.

Why not? His swing timer was so long that it's justified. Look at the interval between attacks. If a fast attacking elite did the same damage, the tank would most likely be dead.

In Vanilla, low level dungeon bosses barely did more damage (except for special cases) than normal elites anyway.

Yeah, it was planned that way. Look at the video I linked of a bear in RFD. He's taking more damage because it's higher level content, but it's not much higher than the stuff the OP linked.

Also, all elites SHOULD do far more damage than normal mobs of similar level. Twice as much as a minimum.

DOUBLE?! That's insane. No one would get past the first pack of elites in an instance.

[Rixxis]

Thorns doesn't affect damage taken, and caster mobs didn't do less damage per hit, they just sometimes had lower attack speed and would spend their time on spells instead of meleeing. Ret vs Devo is a minimal difference. He's showing a difference of a factor of 4, on a class with LESS armor in early levels (Druids).

Yes it isn't irrefutable proof, but it IS reason to have a discussion and question Blizzard.

The problem here is that Blizzard has the proof and we don't.

If the premise is that damage numbers are wrong you need to provide at the very least two comparable scenarios with almost no other variables besides ones that can be easily calculated. Not a vastly different scenario, different mob, different patch, different gear, buffs, levels, etc. and say we ought to talk about this.

[Segus1992]

Herod hits Asmond for like 212-222 roughly (I'm not analyzing the entire thing) with all sorts of consumables
Herod hits This Druid 180-200

However, Herod's Cleave is doing 190ish damage to Asmond, where it's doing 250ish to the druid?

Cleave should be doing 110% damage, why is it doing less damage on Asmong than regular melee hits? Also note the new client has this hitting showing purple numbers where original was still just red.

I'm at work and can't focus on this entirely, so if someone wants to rip this apart feel free, I don't mind being wrong.

Not necessarily wrong - a Druid at 60 in (what looks like) full Wildheart has about 1500-2000 armor, and a Warrior at 30 with a shield and Prot talents has about the same. I don't remember how much (if any) difference level did in damage taken, but assuming it's nothing, the damage values on Herod isn't wrong.

Cleave being off I'd assume is possibly because he blocks, or maybe because he's getting crushing blows, which (if I remember correctly) abilities can't do.

- - - Updated - - -

If the premise is that damage numbers are wrong you need to provide at the very least two comparable scenarios with almost no other variables besides ones that can be easily calculated. Not a vastly different scenario, different mob, different patch, different gear, buffs, levels, etc. and say we ought to talk about this.

I guess it's hard to understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying they ARE wrong, I'm saying they COULD be and we wouldn't know because the ones who have the proof aren't sharing it (yet). Blizzard needs to be questioned and they need to provide proof for players to be satisfied, because the numbers FEEL off.

[Castration]

Also, all elites SHOULD do far more damage than normal mobs of similar level. Twice as much as a minimum.

You're incorrect.

[Segus1992]

Why not? His swing timer was so long that it's justified. Look at the interval between attacks. If a fast attacking elite did the same damage, the tank would most likely be dead.

You're right, he does attack faster. But not 4 times faster (if you're just looking at damage numbers, Rethilgore isn't alone), at most it's twice as fast. Still a big damage difference.

Yeah, it was planned that way. Look at the video I linked of a bear in RFD. He's taking more damage because it's higher level content, but it's not much higher than the stuff the OP linked.

That video is from Wrath pre-patch at the absolute earliest. Isn't exactly solid proof. Edit: considering when it was uploaded, it's probably mid to late Wrath.

DOUBLE?! That's insane. No one would get past the first pack of elites in an instance.

A player can easily handle a single mob, and two mobs with some difficulty. A skilled and prepared player can handle three. Do you think the first player should be able to kill one elite with less than "some difficulty"? In Vanilla, the skilled and prepared player still wouldn't be able to kill even a single elite on his own without being a class that could kite, fighting a mob that couldn't range. It was double damage, at least, as well as more than double health.

- - - Updated - - -

You're incorrect.

Kthx, glad we could have this discussion.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Difficulty = Challenge - (Skill + Knowledge + Gear)

Our Skill and Knowledge has increased a lot since Vanilla WoW. We’ve had a decade of private servers, datamining, theorycrafting and exploration. All of that has made us far better prepared for Classic WoW, all factors that makes the game experience a lot simpler today.

Good example? I thought Strength was useless for Rogues and Feral Druids, as it turns out it was one of the better stats (if not the best).
Likewise I thought Agility was useless for Warriors and Ret Paladins... which it wasn’t.

[Sim]

And you're ignoring the simplest answer to your issue.

What is more likely to have occurred?

1) Blizzard in an act of conspiracy is actively and purposely tuning Classic "easier" for casuals.

or

2) People have "Mandela Effected" themselves into thinking WoW was "harder" despite the company themselves giving proof that it isn't the case. Private servers we're the ones without the proper numbers so they self tuned them which is collectively agreed upon that Private Servers numbers we're very off.

Feels vs Proof.

[Castration]

Kthx, glad we could have this discussion.

No need to have a discussion when one side is making up facts out of thin air.

[Segus1992]

Difficulty = Challenge - (Skill + Knowledge + Gear)

Our Skill and Knowledge has increased a lot since Vanilla WoW. We’ve had a decade of private servers, datamining, theorycrafting and exploration. All of that has made us far better prepared for Classic WoW, all factors that makes the game experience a lot simpler today.

Good example? I thought Strength was useless for Rogues and Feral Druids, as it turns out it was one of the better stats (if not the best).
Likewise I thought Agility was useless for Warriors and Ret Paladins... which it wasn’t.

Skill doesn't do much to counter auto attacks from mobs that can't be kited, with a healer that has a mana pool that's enough for 5 strong heals. Gear matters, yes. Knowledge matters to an extent (basically how to spec and how to pull). None of it will change what damage a mob does significantly unless you were dumb enough to think that you could tank without a shield or outside of Bear Form (which happened).

- - - Updated - - -

No need to have a discussion when one side is making up facts out of thin air.

Well then I guess we're in this together.

[Castration]

Well then I guess we're in this together.

Kthx, glad we could have this discussion.