Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[elbleuet]

Oh and void elfs did come from a high elf group... they came from blood elfs, who are high elfs.

You should really learn Warcraft Lore, and come back later.

None of your Horde Blood elves recognize themselves as High elves. They do, but only as former High elves. I recommand you to play WIII TFT, or create for the first time of your life a blood elf and do their starting zone.

[Ielenia]

Ythisens stated an opinion on the issue, an opinion which you and other pro helfers have used as "support".

Which none of us stated what he said was fact.

On the other hand, the WoW game director stated facts on the issue. Facts that you seem to deem as "opinion" simply because they go against your agenda.

No. No, they have not.

Any statement regarding "adding high elves would blur factions lines/identities" is nothing but opinions, not facts. And Blizzard's opinion (doubly so for Ghostcrawler's) in this matter is verifiably false. Faction lines have been blurred already, because silhouettes previously exclusive to the factions have been given to the other.

[Aldo Hawk]

Blood elves are and aren't High elves.

Why?

Because the name High elf is used for two different things.

The name of the species and the name of a group.

Of Course Blood elves are former High elves.

What's not true is that Blood elves are the High elves that are being requested.

Saying 'Blood elves are High elves' is just a red herring that has been abused to derive the conversation towards Blood elves and towards a confusion about what the former name was and the name of the group that don't call themselves Blood elves and are in the Alliance.

[Ielenia]

So let me get this straight. The people who create the game.. it's graphics, the gameplay, the story/lore are wrong about something they said to be true. But it's your opinion that your opinion is correct over those that make the story.

So let me get this straight: if the man who built the restaurant... its theme, its kitchen, arranged the tables and organized everything... say his restaurant is clean, then it is clean to you, despite the fact there are rats scurrying around, grime on the tables and mold on the seats?

It's not about arrogance. It's about facts: giving the silhouette of night elves to the Horde and the blood elf silhouette to the Alliance (along with their respective lores) has irreparably damaged the "preserve faction identity" reasoning.

I'll repeat: if "preserving faction identity" was such a big thing, then the nightborne should have given to the Alliance and the void elves should've been given to the Horde. (Not to mention that would even balance out the "lore-rich/ass-pull" allied race ratio)

[Ferg]

I'll repeat: if "preserving faction identity" was such a big thing, then the nightborne should have given to the Alliance and the void elves should've been given to the Horde. (Not to mention that would even balance out the "lore-rich/ass-pull" allied race ratio)

The void elves didn't want to be with the Horde because they disagreed with the restrictions placed on their usage of void magic, right? So why would it make any sense for them to be a part of the Horde, when they literally left because they were being discriminated against?

[FlubberPuddy]

The void elves didn't want to be with the Horde because they disagreed with the restrictions placed on their usage of void magic, right? So why would it make any sense for them to be a part of the Horde, when they literally left because they were being discriminated against?

I mean it should be a no-brainer but apparently it isn't. If Void Elves did go Horde then obviously the narrative would've gone slightly different while still keeping the same overall theme.

[Aldo Hawk]

When someone creates a tale or a story or whatever you would like to call it, they can have things that doesn't correlate and there is nothing wrong in pointing it out.

If we have been told that the High Elves are too few, but then we have seen them in various expansions doing all kind of activities and being often portrayed more times that playable races...

That doesn't hold any ground because of the discrepancy between the statement 'High elves are too few to become playable' and seeing High elves in the way they have been portrayed through WoW and other playable races that have been also told to us that doesn't have a high number of population.

Dev opinion is Dev opinion.

That's why something called 'retcon' exists.

[Aldo Hawk]

Except that in-game appearances have never been a standing or representation of lore population.

Yup, that's correct.

In fact, there's always -more- than what's depicted in the game, it has never been less.

And since you are still holding that attitude... back to the ignore list you go again.

[Ielenia]

I don't know why you keep repeating this as though it has some merit, it's a false equivalence. And just because you keep repeating it doesn't make it anymore relatable to what you're trying to compare it to.

Just like you simply repeating it's a "false equivalence" doesn't make it so.

One is something that degrades over time due to a lack of effort, the other is a state in which is controlled by the statement of it's creators.

Um... both are states in which are controlled by the actions and inactions of their creators. And the "faction identity" thing has been irreparably damaged thanks to their recent actions, namely when they added the nightborne and void elves.

Can the restaurant owner make the place clean by saying that it is? No. Can the creators of a game say that something is the way it is in their universe because that's how they want it to be? Yes.

You're ignoring context. And they're not talking about how something "is in their universe" because we're talking about "faction identity", i.e., how each faction looks and feels to the player. In the lore, neither Anduin nor Sylvanas care one bit how their allies look as long as their goals and desires match their own.

And what has been their on going answer for nearly a decade?

Could you do me a favor and remind me what has been their "ongoing answer for over a decade" regarding vanilla servers, please?

They're not wrong because they don't believe themselves to be.

Just because they believe to be in the right does not mean they are not in the wrong.

You claim they're wrong because it's your opinion that they are and you tout it around as though it were fact. Therein lies the problem of those with an agenda, everyone is wrong but themselves and are damn well unwilling to do any measure of self observance in the chance they realize that.

Except the facts are blatant and explicit to anyone who decides to take a look: the "preserve faction identity" reasoning has been rendered null and void by Blizzard themselves when they added the nightborne and void elf allied races.

- - - Updated - - -

The void elves didn't want to be with the Horde because they disagreed with the restrictions placed on their usage of void magic, right? So why would it make any sense for them to be a part of the Horde, when they literally left because they were being discriminated against?

They did not leave on their own volition: they were kicked out.

The blood elves who eventually became void elves were exiled from Silvermoon and the Horde because they were researching the void. They joined the Alliance because Alleria saved them and because the Alliance accepted them, instead of kicking them out like Horde did.

[FlubberPuddy]

Thanks for agreeing and proving my point?

You actually proved his point. Like how Goldshire isn't just some blacksmith shack and an inn in lore. It's more than that. Which means what we see in-game is actually more than what's shown in-game.

And in case you didn't understand, he was making the point that saying "High Elves aren't populous enough" but then continually using them in various situations is the disconnect.

This disconnect exists and it is why it's easy to look at that type of sentiment ("there aren't enough") as false and weak, regardless of it's been said by Blizzard or not. It's not the first time they've been wrong about things they've said.

[Aldo Hawk]

They did not leave on their own volition: they were kicked out.

The blood elves who eventually became void elves were exiled from Silvermoon and the Horde because they were researching the void. They joined the Alliance because Alleria saved them and because the Alliance accepted them, instead of kicking them out like Horde did.

These ain't my blood elves, Blizzard, what have you done!

- - - Updated - - -

You actually proved his point. Like how Goldshire isn't just some blacksmith shack and an inn in lore. It's more than that. Which means what we see in-game is actually more than what's shown in-game.

And in case you didn't understand, he was making the point that saying "High Elves aren't populous enough" but then continually using them in various situations is the disconnect.

This disconnect exists and it is why it's easy to look at that type of sentiment ("there aren't enough") as false and weak, regardless of it's been said by Blizzard or not. It's not the first time they've been wrong about things they've said.

I would love to see Gadgetzan, Goldshire, Ratchet, or Booty Bay all fleshed out.

Or the Blood elven towns, omg they would be fantastic!

[Neverafter]

I am genuinely curious where Pro HE's would place themselves or what they would add to the following.
If the Pro High Elf position were placed on a continuum, where would you fall?

(1)-----(2)-----(3)-----(4)-----(5)-----(6)

1. Races should be completely and totally distinct. (Orc's and Humans basically)
2. Ok, Elves we can make a little different. The Alliance Elves will be darker colored and taller and the Horde Elves will be slightly shorter and fair skinned (TBC)
3. Ok, but what if the Horde wants to play as a darker/taller elf and the Alliance wants to play as the shorter/prettier elf? (BFA)
4. No, the Alliance wants even prettier elves. Lighter skin options for Void Elves and maybe less tentacled hair (Compromise 1)
5. ??????? (Compromise 2)
6. I want a High Elf. Nothing short of the Blue Eyed "Blood Elf" model that I have seen in the game since Vanilla/BC/Warcraft 2/Warcraft 3/Whatever.(Compromise 3)

On this continuum, Blizzard settled on #3. There is some give and take, but both factions got different races that have similarities to the other faction.
Some in the forums have argued for #4. More options to Void Elves. Others have argued for nothing short of #6. Some have alluded to an Option #5, but I haven't seen a satisfactory option (tattoos and hair wouldn't be enough to differentiate a playable race [again, you are free to disagree])

Where would you place yourself? What could be a reasonable Option #5 (More than more options for Void Elves, but short of a Blue Eyed Blood Elf on the Alliance)?

[Aldo Hawk]

I am genuinely curious where Pro HE's would place themselves or what they would add to the following.
If the Pro High Elf position were placed on a continuum, where would you fall?

(1)-----(2)-----(3)-----(4)-----(5)-----(6)

1. Races should be completely and totally distinct. (Orc's and Humans basically)
2. Ok, Elves we can make a little different. The Alliance Elves will be darker colored and taller and the Horde Elves will be slightly shorter and fair skinned (TBC)
3. Ok, but what if the Horde wants to play as a darker/taller elf and the Alliance wants to play as the shorter/prettier elf? (BFA)
4. No, the Alliance wants even prettier elves. Lighter skin options for Void Elves and maybe less tentacled hair (Compromise 1)
5. ??????? (Compromise 2)
6. I want a High Elf. Nothing short of the Blue Eyed "Blood Elf" model that I have seen in the game since Vanilla/BC/Warcraft 2/Warcraft 3/Whatever.(Compromise 3)

On this continuum, Blizzard settled on #3. There is some give and take, but both factions got different races that have similarities to the other faction.
Some in the forums have argued for #4. More options to Void Elves. Others have argued for nothing short of #6. Some have alluded to an Option #5, but I haven't seen a satisfactory option (tattoos and hair wouldn't be enough to differentiate a playable race [again, you are free to disagree])

Where would you place yourself? What could be a reasonable Option #5 (More than more options for Void Elves, but short of a Blue Eyed Blood Elf on the Alliance)?

Your first mistake is thinking that HE requesters have to fill an unprofessional and biased questionary.

There is plenty of commentary for you to make your personal opinion on what we want.

In my case i just want a part of the alliance to be made playable.

[Neverafter]

Your first mistake is thinking that HE requesters have to fill an unprofessional and biased questionary.

There is plenty of commentary for you to make your personal opinion on what we want.

In my case i just want a part of the alliance to be made playable.

So you don't have an answer. That's fine.

Perhaps someone else would like to contribute to the conversation.

[ddi2]

Blood Elves are High Elves. Void Elves are Blood Elves.

Void Elves are High Elves.

So, yea, I do want fair skin options for the Alliance version of High Elves.

Blood Elves in the game are only called Blodd Elves. Void Elves in the game are only called Void Elves. High Elves in the game are only called High Elves. Never are these terms used interchangeably, they are always being referred to specific groups. You are being deliberately obtuse by claiming otherwise.

I am genuinely curious where Pro HE's would place themselves or what they would add to the following.
If the Pro High Elf position were placed on a continuum, where would you fall?

(1)-----(2)-----(3)-----(4)-----(5)-----(6)

1. Races should be completely and totally distinct. (Orc's and Humans basically)
2. Ok, Elves we can make a little different. The Alliance Elves will be darker colored and taller and the Horde Elves will be slightly shorter and fair skinned (TBC)
3. Ok, but what if the Horde wants to play as a darker/taller elf and the Alliance wants to play as the shorter/prettier elf? (BFA)
4. No, the Alliance wants even prettier elves. Lighter skin options for Void Elves and maybe less tentacled hair (Compromise 1)
5. ??????? (Compromise 2)
6. I want a High Elf. Nothing short of the Blue Eyed "Blood Elf" model that I have seen in the game since Vanilla/BC/Warcraft 2/Warcraft 3/Whatever.(Compromise 3)

On this continuum, Blizzard settled on #3. There is some give and take, but both factions got different races that have similarities to the other faction.
Some in the forums have argued for #4. More options to Void Elves. Others have argued for nothing short of #6. Some have alluded to an Option #5, but I haven't seen a satisfactory option (tattoos and hair wouldn't be enough to differentiate a playable race [again, you are free to disagree])

Where would you place yourself? What could be a reasonable Option #5 (More than more options for Void Elves, but short of a Blue Eyed Blood Elf on the Alliance)?

These options are quite meaningless and if you payed attention to the topic, you would have known that. What many people ask and where the main debate is is that people ask for High Elves. High Elves that are already in the game lore-wise. That's it. In game they can look however Blizzard sees fit, as long as it is consistent with lore. They can use their current Blood elf models, they can change their models and base them on Night Elf models instead, they can make their own models or give some modifications to their current ones. Ultimately it doesn't matter. As long as they are High Elves and look like High Elves are supposed to look like. Some obviously do want them to be exactly as Blood Elves with blue eyes model-wise but from what I've seen, only a small minority of pro-High Elvers have this requirement.

I personally don't give a damn about Blood Elf model silhouettes and Blood Elf model animations, and considering that Void Elves only share that with High Elves, they do absolutely nothing for me. Giving Void Elves a fair skin would be akin to giving Draenei fair skin - not only ridiculous, but also completely irrelevant.

[Neverafter]

Blood Elves in the game are only called Blodd Elves.

Blood Elves in game are the High Elven survivors of the Scourge attack on Silvermoon. They changed their name to reflect the hardships the race had endured. Blood Elves are and were High Elves.

Void Elves in the game are only called Void Elves.

Void Elves in the game are a splinter faction of Blood Elves that were exiled from Silvermoon for studying the void. Void Elves are and were Blood Elves.

High Elves in the game are only called High Elves.

High Elves in the game changed their name to Blood Elves following the attack on Silvermoon (see above)

Never are these terms used interchangeably, they are always being referred to specific groups. You are being deliberately obtuse by claiming otherwise.

You are right on the first part. In game, these terms, for the most part, are not used interchangeably. Once a Void Elf has become a Void Elf, they will identify themselves as a Void Elf, because as a gameplay component, they are now a Void Elf. We as players however, know their lore and history, and know that they are a splinter faction of the Blood Elves, which themselves came from High Elves. There is even indications, though none explicit enough for some readers, that Void Elves are allowing other elves to study and potentially become Void Elves, including High Elves that have remained loyal to the Alliance.

As for being obtuse, I have to disagree. I have plainly and clearly laid out the facts of the game.

These options are quite meaningless and if you payed attention to the topic, you would have known that. What many people ask and where the main debate is is that people ask for High Elves. High Elves that are already in the game lore-wise. That's it. In game they can look however Blizzard sees fit, as long as it is consistent with lore. They can use their current Blood elf models, they can change their models and base them on Night Elf models instead, they can make their own models or give some modifications to their current ones. Ultimately it doesn't matter. As long as they are High Elves and look like High Elves are supposed to look like. Some obviously do want them to be exactly as Blood Elves with blue eyes model-wise but from what I've seen, only a small minority of pro-High Elvers have this requirement.

I personally don't give a damn about Blood Elf model silhouettes and Blood Elf model animations, and considering that Void Elves only share that with High Elves, they do absolutely nothing for me. Giving Void Elves a fair skin would be akin to giving Draenei fair skin - not only ridiculous, but also completely irrelevant.

I have payed attention to the topic. Evidently the purpose of this thought experiment has alluded you.

It is easy to talk about hypotheticals and abstract ideas. "I want to play a High Elf". That is fine. That is a perfectly reasonable request to make, just as much as any other race or class or any other suggestion.

The problem is in the details. You say "Ultimately it doesn't matter". I and many others big to differ. It absolutely matters, and that is why I brought up the continuum. Based on your own words, it sounds like you would place yourself somewhere between a 5 and 6. You would not be happy with Void Elves receiving more options, even though the lore is and could be made to fit such an option.

The problem is, however, that with Void Elves having already been introduced and not "High Elven Enough" but much of the community, the question has to be asked, what would suffice? What would make the High Elven community happy? Simply stating playable High Elves completely misses the point that in lore, in game, and for all intents and purposes, that equates to copy and pasting a Horde race to the Alliance. That is the most extreme end of the continuum for a reason. The other end being elves would never exist, something we can observe in the game to have already been broken.

This also speaks to the "Faction Diversity" point. That is a term that, to my knowledge, has not been defined by Blizzard and thus players are using their own interpretations. For this continuum, Blizzard had been at a 2 previously. Each faction had distinct elves. With BFA, they moved to a 3, now each faction had the distinct elves they had before, as well as a version of the distinct elves of the other faction. Many players are apprehensive and some outright hostile to moving past a 3 at all. The further someone moves past Option 3, the more hostile people become.

You can argue that players wanted High Elves and not Void Elves. That is a perfectly reasonable statement and I am sure has been made several times already. The problem is, Blizzard likes to make decisions conservatively. Once something is made available to players, it is much more difficult to pull back. Even in 8.2, they are loosening the rules that have been placed on Transmog since its inception. Void Elves were Blizzard's first attempt at giving players a version of High Elves, but still remained distinct from Blood Elves. A large portion of the audience, as this thread can speak to, has rejected Void Elves as not "High Elven enough".

Again, I ask what would be enough? If someone can come up with a viable Option 5 that does more than give Void Elves more customization options but does not go so far as copy and pasting Blood Elves to the Alliance, I am all ears. This is meant to attempt to take the abstract ideas and accusations and bring them down to something we can all visualize.

[Ielenia]

Blood Elves in game are the High Elven survivors of the Scourge attack on Silvermoon. They changed their name to reflect the hardships the race had endured. Blood Elves are and were High Elves.

Were high elves. They changed their race's name, and in the lore, calling a blood elf a 'high elf' or a high elf a 'blood elf' is a huge insult to them.

High Elves in the game changed their name to Blood Elves following the attack on Silvermoon (see above)

Not all of them did. And it's those that didn't that the pro-high elf community wants to play as.

[Neverafter]

Were high elves. They changed their race's name, and in the lore, calling a blood elf a 'high elf' or a high elf a 'blood elf' is a huge insult to them.

But we are not in the game. We are outside of the game. Blood Elves are High Elves. In the game, there are minor details that separate the two. We as players know that the two groups share a common ancestry and are one race.

Not all of them did. And it's those that didn't that the pro-high elf community wants to play as.

Population doesn't even matter anymore. The implementation matters.

A magic genie appears and grants you your wish. Playable High Elves for all. How does that get implemented. That is the crux of this issue.

[Ielenia]

But we are not in the game. We are outside of the game. Blood Elves are High Elves. In the game, there are minor details that separate the two. We as players know that the two groups share a common ancestry and are one race.

So what? So do Highmountain tauren and tauren. Nightborne and night elf. Zandalari trolls and trolls. Etc, etc.

Population doesn't even matter anymore. The implementation matters.

A magic genie appears and grants you your wish. Playable High Elves for all. How does that get implemented. That is the crux of this issue.

So you're focusing on the easiest, simplest "issue"? See the Dark Iron dwarves were made playable: late formal alliance ceremony. That's just one example of many.

[elbleuet]

But we are not in the game. We are outside of the game. Blood Elves are High Elves. In the game, there are minor details that separate the two. We as players know that the two groups share a common ancestry and are one race.

They aren't.

Blood elves are fel corrupted thalassian elves. High elves are uncorrupted thalassian elves.

That's like saying void elves are blood elves. Void elves are void corrupted thalassian elves.