Pro-lifer argument: "what if your parents decided to abort you?!"

[schwank05]

Weird, all the rhetoric online seems to paint that in a different light. I don't see how you can blame the doctor and ignore the womans actions. What if she aborts the fetus herself?

If she self aborted then she is to blame, but going to a doctor that literally rips limbs off and lays them in a pile and does this Thousands of times I find that person to be not only Morally corrupt, but just plain evil.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

They are two different things. Yes you can argue that in essence not acting to take out the organs is the same as letting others die. It is however a action that is required to be taken. An abortion (assuming everyone involved is healthy.) is the act of taking what would be a life.

A better example then organs is a murder compared to a bystander refusing to involve themselves. Both kill a person but the level of blame isn't the same.

They aren't though. They are interlaced here. That article is brought up to show how inconsistent people like that are. You can't ban abortions based on the "sanctity of life" and then have so many other instances of not giving a fuck. There are plenty of examples where privacy and autonomy rank above the sanctity of life, and organ donation is one of them.

Trying to act like you can't understand why these two issues are linked is disingenuous.

The person refusing to donate their organs is morally a terrible person.

[Malkiah]

I see no reason for people who are our of High school to be dumb enough to not use protection if for no other reason that to protect against STD's.

the reason is ignorance, and this is born out very clearly in the US: the conservative southern states that only preach abstinence and refuse to offer any sexual education have massively higher instances of STDs and pregnancy in teens than in the states that offer education and access to contraceptives.

If you are in High School and just having random sex, I ask why? what is there to be gained from hooking up with random people.

.... seriously?
the why is simple: sex
what is to be gained: sex

for most people sex is pretty much the ultimate form of indulgence, there's nothing more pleasing physically or psychologically than having sex.

I also see no reason to date other than to find a spouse. In which case if you are getting married or are married and don't want kids then what exactly were the reasons for getting married?

well then congratulations for being in a tiny minority of humans, because most of us want to fuck at every possible opportunity.

also, many people view relationships the same way they view pets: something you get for the love and companionship, that you enjoy for whatever amount of time that you have with it, and even though you don't dwell on it you know that sooner or later it's going to die, and you'll be sad for a bit, then you'll get another one.
the best way to experience relationships is the same way it's best to experience dogs - track your life by the series of them that you went through and how you enjoyed each one differently.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

then they use the last and most fool proof form of birth control, done have sex, not even toilet seats can get you pregnant

Nice chatting with you, I'm sure glad you don't help make laws.

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Someone needs to invent something that makes humans temporarily infertile until they are ready for children, it would make all sides happy.

All sides don't need to be happy.

[Endus]

I am pro choice but I'm not going to pretend like there aren't laws that place a child's needs above their parents. In which case the moment that the fetus becomes a person would matter.

Not when it comes to the parent's rights to their own bodies.

If your kid needs a kidney, and you say "nah", you won't be forced to donate your kidney.

I see... One question then: Are you saying all sex is rape, or that sex without birth control should be thought of as refusing pregnancy?

Of course not. That's a ridiculous assertion that has nothing to do with anything I said. You're derailing.

The extreme percent of pregnancy are consensual. Most states do not ask woman to state the reason for abortion, but Florida for example does. And according to them abortions from rape are 0.14% of all abortions. The estimated national average is <0.5%.

You're confusing consent to sexual intercourse with consent to pregnancy.

They're not the same thing, at all. I really don't see how this is not glaringly obvious.

You keep referring to the point of removing organs from the deceased. It seems a weird argument to make as the two are unrelated.

They are directly related.

In both cases, it's an issue where one person's right to life runs up against another person's right to bodily autonomy. In every other case, even that of a dead person, bodily autonomy is the right that supercedes the other. Because rights always end where another's rights begin.

It's the same rights in question, in as close a context as it's possible to get.

The argument comes down to what value you put on life for the most part ( there are some medical issues were I concede this point,). The concept that a healthy fetus won't develop into a healthy child is absurd it is the same argument as claiming you haven't killed a plant by removing it from the soil because it was still a seed.

It isn't about "value", at all. We don't set a price on human rights.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

If you are not in a serious relationship and not prepared for the possibility of having kids with the person you are in a relationship with then don't have sex, pretty simple. My wife and I used Condoms exclusively for 7 years until we got married then stopped and guess what we had kids.

What if one broke in the second week you were together? I want you to think really hard at where you were in life. Could you afford a child? Did your wife want one?

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isnt an abortion in a way forcing you "ideas" on a defenseless fetus?

Fetuses are not people.

[Malkiah]

isnt an abortion in a way forcing you "ideas" on a defenseless fetus?

in the same way that disposing of a hunk of rotten meat is forcing your ideas about food safety on a defenseless steak.

[laplacedemon]

extenuating circumstances do you people not read?

see what you did, now the trolls are in a circlejerk

The other day, I saw some people on reddit saying that abortion shouldn't be a thing for rape victims either because those women shouldn't have gone outside at night anyway. What you or I say in this matter doesn't matter for the circlejerkers and frankly I don't care.

Which is the only fool proof way to ensure you don't have an unwanted pregnancy. I see no reason for people who are our of High school to be dumb enough to not use protection if for no other reason that to protect against STD's. If you are in High School and just having random sex, I ask why? what is there to be gained from hooking up with random people. I also see no reason to date other than to find a spouse. In which case if you are getting married or are married and don't want kids then what exactly were the reasons for getting married?

People should use protection, but that's not a foolproof way. Have you never had an accident with a condom before?

And people don't have to justify their reasons for having random sex or getting married to, well anyone. It's very odd that you're gatekeeping marriage.

[Unholyground]

All sides don't need to be happy.

No this is true, but finding a solution that made us infertile that was easily reversible so that we don't have to worry about teenage pregnancy ever again would be a great step forward as a species.

[Aurgjelme]

If you are not in a serious relationship and not prepared for the possibility of having kids with the person you are in a relationship with then don't have sex, pretty simple. My wife and I used Condoms exclusively for 7 years until we got married then stopped and guess what we had kids.

Catholics are screwed then...or rather not...

[Doctor Amadeus]

I am talking about the most popular ones, the abrahamic religions since they are the vast majority and are meant to be followed as law not interpenetrated.

Yeah, I read you loud and clear and I get what you are saying, I am just saying I wouldn't hand wave it so easily, I am religious and again I am against Abortion, but I am pro science and I do support the law as it sits.

And short of a scientific reason, I wouldn't change my mind, and plenty of others feel the same way. However those who are simply ignorant if their views get hand waved without being addressed they will likely trust those as you mentioned full of shit. Which is a big part of the problem. Which might make no difference to you either way.

But I am saying some of the people you mention could actually be swayed reasonably and logically to change their position.

[Endus]

They are two different things. Yes you can argue that in essence not acting to take out the organs is the same as letting others die. It is however a action that is required to be taken. An abortion (assuming everyone involved is healthy.) is the act of taking what would be a life.

An abortion is the end of a pregnancy before birth. Miscarriages are abortions, too. Spontaneous abortion, rather than induced.

It has nothing to do with "taking a life". In your own words, they "let the fetus die".

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

If she self aborted then she is to blame, but going to a doctor that literally rips limbs off and lays them in a pile and does this Thousands of times I find that person to be not only Morally corrupt, but just plain evil.

But the women in these scenarios are essential. Without them willingly going to a doctor, abortions wouldn't exist. So saying "people don't mind the women, its those doctors!" is pretty much a lie.

[Donatello Trumpi]

Why do you romanticize a heartbeat? This isn't literature, we aren't writing poems here. Drivel? Science? Scientifically, just having a heartbeat doesn't mean you are "alive." We can make hearts, and make hearts pump. Brain dead people can have heartbeats.

Heartbeats start around 8 weeks, which is close to zygote territory. A fetus doesn't even feel pain until around 30 weeks. It doesn't have memories, and can't make decisions. It isn't self-aware. If the mother died, and we pulled that 8 week old zygote/fetus out, would it be "alive" still? No, it would fucking die.

A heartbeat is one of the more meaningless metrics to judge life.

"During a hearing on a bill that would ban late-term abortions nationwide, an expert on human embryonic development informed members of the committee that unborn babies have the capacity to feel pain as early as 8 weeks.

Maureen Condic, Ph.D. is an Associate Professor of Neurobiology and Anatomy at the University of Utah and obtained her Ph.D. from University of California, Berkeley. She is a widely published scientist whose works have appeared in a wide variety of peer-reviewed journals.

“The earliest “rudiment” of the human nervous system forms by 28 days (four weeks) after sperm – egg fusion. At this stage, the primitive brain is already “patterned”; i.e. cells in different regions are specified to produce structures appropriate to their location in the nervous system as a whole,” she told lawmakers.

Knowing the unborn child feels pain early in pregnancy, Condic says the question is what to do then.

“Imposing pain on any pain-capable living creature is cruelty. And ignoring the pain experienced by another human individual for any reason is barbaric. We don’t need to know if a human fetus is self- reflective or even self- aware to afford it the same consideration we currently afford other pain – capable species. We simply have to decide whether we will choose to ignore the pain of the fetus or not,” she concludes.

Read Dr. Condic’s full testimony at http://judiciary.house.gov/hearings/...2005232013.pdf

Dr. Condic explained, “Over the next several weeks, the brain will grow enormously and generate many complex connections, but the overall organization of the nervous system is established by four weeks. This is significant because it shows that even at this early stage, the brain is not anything like a mere collection of cells or a “blank slate” to be written upon by later developmental processes. Like all embryonic organs, the structure of the early brain “anticipates” the function of the mature system.”

When it comes to pain specifically, scientific evidence is very clear that pain can be experienced by 20 weeks of pregnancy. But Condic said unborn children have a capacity to feel pain much earlier.

“The neural circuitry responsible for the most primitive response to pain, the spinal reflex, is in place by 8 weeks of development,” she explained. “This is the earliest point at which the fetus experiences pain in any capacity.”

At that point, the scientist confirmed “a fetus responds just as humans at later stages of development respond; by with withdrawing from the painful stimulus.”

By 8-10 weeks, Dr. Condic says many of the neural connections are formed.

“This indicates that the brain is “wiring” itself in the first trimester, well before reaching the fetal stage of life. Early establishment of connections between neurons further indicates that brain formation is an active process of progressively building the structures and relationships required for mature brain function,” she confirmed."

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

No this is true, but finding a solution that made us infertile that was easily reversible so that we don't have to worry about teenage pregnancy ever again would be a great step forward as a species.

Well, we do currently have a medical procedure to end a pregnancy, its called abortion, and only involves the woman who wants to get one.

[schwank05]

ROFLMAO the right is loudly opposed to safe sex which is why Trump has pushed abstinence only education something that has 100% proven to be a failure. The right legislatively just seems to want babies to be born once they are born of course they can go to hell because they don't support anything that will help the baby or parents.

I would consider myself to be fully on the Right, and am all about Contraception, Abstinence, or Adoption. But am fully against Abortion unless medically necessary for the Mother's safety which is extremely Rare. You can bring up all the Rape and Incest you want which is just a very fringe fraction of a percentage of all Abortions. But in the end if you are raised properly and taught that Sex is something to be shared by two people in a committed relationship then I don't even see an issue as most who are in this situation would gladly welcome a child.

[Symphonic]

We are talking about human cells here , not a person.

"Human cells" are not necessarily "living". a fertilized egg especially once implanted meets the requirements of a living thing: living things are made of cells, use energy, respond to stimuli, grow and reproduce, and maintain homeostasis. Sperm is not able to meet all those requirements by itself.

[jackofwind]

Yeah, being dead is such a non inconvenience

You're not dead if you never existed.

[Hilhen7]

"Human cells" are not necessarily "living". a fertilized egg especially once implanted meets the requirements of a living thing: living things are made of cells, use energy, respond to stimuli, grow and reproduce, and maintain homeostasis. Sperm is not able to meet all those requirements by itself.

What cells aren't living? So what are single cell organisms then?

[schwank05]

The other day, I saw some people on reddit saying that abortion shouldn't be a thing for rape victims either because those women shouldn't have gone outside at night anyway. What you or I say in this matter doesn't matter for the circlejerkers and frankly I don't care.



People should use protection, but that's not a foolproof way. Have you never had an accident with a condom before?

And people don't have to justify their reasons for having random sex or getting married to, well anyone. It's very odd that you're gatekeeping marriage.

I have only ever been with or wanted to be with my Wife, of coarse we had shit happen with condoms before we were married. But both knew that when you have Sex kids happen and were fully prepared to have said kids had she gotten pregnant.