Pro-lifer argument: "what if your parents decided to abort you?!"

[Kyphael]

My response to that argument: what if I wish that they did?

Al Bundy, is that you?

[Thirza]

If it is killed at that stage on purpose, is it considered murder?

It is still an undeveloped fetus, whether it is extracted or not, if it is considered murder anywhere that is logically inconsistent with reality.

[ohwell]

I haven't seen anyone advocating for infanticide in any mmoc thread ever.
---
Arguing that a fetus without the physical components that create sentience is deserving of rights is as ridiculous as arguing that a braindead Siamese twin deserves rights.

A lot of people have. So someone braindead in the hospital in general doesn't have a right to live?

I don't care either way in this as long as eventually men get the right to "abort" their rights and responsibility prior to whatever the standard abortion limit is. You want to force men to care for a child yet we never force women to do so? Bull. Either both get to waive being in the child's life or neither. I'd prefer if there were more abortions due to population etc and if men could say they wanted no part in it, women wouldn't keep their gotcha babies.

[Nerovar]

Posting memes in text format. The absolute state of MMO-C in 2019.

[Witchblade77]

Ah OK



This is exactly what you said I was arguing, and you are making a lot of claims based on your opinion.



There are other tools available, so far your argument that is is (My Body) which it is, there for it's (My Right) which is true uh plenty of others beg to differ, if others see the life inside you regardless to gestation as a human life in every as a fully developed baby, I am afraid, that issue is not settled.

For some and if that isn't settled then regardless to where you stand and how the law is made, that statement you said will no longer be true



I am, confused by this statement

My body my right is a correct statement, and it is one that I know is true and so do many, but if the argument behind it isn't better than the one you have, it's going to get over turned, because not even I agree with you, and I support leaving the law as is.


I would argue, that abortion that is already legal gives the widest margins between cells and fetal tissue and formed viable human being, that is a scientific fact, as to the morality, the woman up until such time is an identified viable human being and as such should be afforded every right not to continue whatever pregnancy for whatever reason, because the evidence supports across the board the time for which it is legal to have an abortion consist of no viable human life developed.

Now in terms of over all health there are also other psychological considerations to consider as well, forcing any woman due to the denial of access to a safe and legal abortion will introduce new threats to the woman's life previously known when abortion access was not legal.

Including suicide, depression, self mutilation.


That argument doesn't require emotion to prove.


The argument it's my body, therefor my right while being true, it says nothing about why it is true. And IF it is understood that what I said above isn't true, and your stance is I don't give a shit if it's a human being or not.

EHHH, GOOD LUCK with that!

do you understand the concept of slavery? becasue that is what it is if you decide that FORCING A WOMAN TO CARRY a pregnancy to term IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN HER OWN BODILY AUTONOMY.


as for what i was attempting to say in that last paragraph is that what they are proposing as far as late term abortions go? will kill women. becasue it HAS killed women. contrary to conservative claims women who are considering late term abortions are NOT doing it becasue they suddenly changed their minds. they are doing it becasue there is either danger to themselves or their baby's well being. vast VAST majority of women in those cases - WANT to carry the child to term, the pregnancy is a wanted one. unfortunately - its gone wrong.

this is probably one of the most famous cases, becasue it was the final straw. but its far from the ONLY case. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_...a_Halappanavar

most abortions are NOT late term. most abortions are requested once woman actualy realizes that she is pregnant. and it can take a few months. because guess what. you don't start showing right away. becasue for a lot of women period doesn't stop. becasue they HAVE been using protection and didn't expect pregnancy in a first place.

all of this crap about how those "bitches are changing their minds at 6 months" or more is just another distraction to push lows that take away woman's bodily autonomy. and the truth is - forcing another human to do something, especially something as invasive and dangerous (yes dangerous) as pregnancy with their body against their will? is wrong. it is a beginning of a slippery slope that none of us want to slide down, not if we want to preserve any semblance of having full choices about our lives and ourselves.

[ohwell]

Babies that have survived at times like that don't survive outside of a womb, they just survive outside of their mother's biological womb. A baby born at 21 weeks doesn't just go home in diapers, it's placed in an artificial womb so that it can finish developing. It's incapable of surviving on its own without outside medical aid because it's not adequately developed, and it certainly doesn't need a cortex or to be sentient to be placed in an artificial womb.

You're not even making decent arguments here to support your opinion, you're doing nothing but appealing to anecdotes and emotion.

I think the main idea is that passing through the vagina shouldn't(and doesn't) somehow miraculously give consciousness. Babies have had needs and desires in the womb and act out as early as 6 months. They can move of their own volition by 13 weeks in subsequent pregnancies although that's more of reflexes activating. Unless we actually develop some sort of means to really dive into consciousness, it's a hard question to prove on either side. The baby is DEFINITELY alive in terms of what we consider some invalids in a hospital at some point in pregnancy that is months before birth. Hence it leads back to passing through a vagina shouldn't be any sort of precursor for being "alive".

- - - Updated - - -

do you understand the concept of slavery? becasue that is what it is if you decide that FORCING A WOMAN TO CARRY a pregnancy to term IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN HER OWN BODILY AUTONOMY.


as for what i was attempting to say in that last paragraph is that what they are proposing as far as late term abortions go? will kill women. becasue it HAS killed women. contrary to conservative claims women who are considering late term abortions are NOT doing it becasue they suddenly changed their minds. they are doing it becasue there is either danger to themselves or their baby's well being. vast VAST majority of women in those cases - WANT to carry the child to term, the pregnancy is a wanted one. unfortunately - its gone wrong.

this is probably one of the most famous cases, becasue it was the final straw. but its far from the ONLY case. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_...a_Halappanavar

most abortions are NOT late term. most abortions are requested once woman actualy realizes that she is pregnant. and it can take a few months. because guess what. you don't start showing right away. becasue for a lot of women period doesn't stop. becasue they HAVE been using protection and didn't expect pregnancy in a first place.

all of this crap about how those "bitches are changing their minds at 6 months" or more is just another distraction to push lows that take away woman's bodily autonomy. and the truth is - forcing another human to do something, especially something as invasive and dangerous (yes dangerous) as pregnancy with their body against their will? is wrong. it is a beginning of a slippery slope that none of us want to slide down, not if we want to preserve any semblance of having full choices about our lives and ourselves.

Then I'm assuming you'd be ok with the father of the child saying he wanted out and could sign out of the baby's life before it was born? If not it goes to the same arguments they tell men: should have thought about that before you did something capable of creating a baby.

So just so we're on the same page both men and women should be able to opt out(of course not the man forcing a woman to abort but rather a legal and emotional opt out for the man)?

- - - Updated - - -

Rigorous application of medical science to allow it to endure to that point in maturation doesn't mean it has it at that time.

If you're on life support you're not alive? Dialysis as well?

[Raggun]

I mean, If the fetus is a own person then let the woman abort it and let it make its own way through life.
It's just hilarious that right wingers who care the least for their fellow human beings are so sanctimonious about life (before its born mind you).

You understand what an abortion is right?

Back to the topic: I am not on either side really, I can understand that abortions should be the woman choice but I also do consider as soon as the heart beats that it is a indeed living human being. Don't sugar coat the moral issue with technicalities, you're killing what will grow to be a human baby with the choice to abort.

We had a vote recently in Ireland on making abortion legal, I voted yes because the existing legislation was written decades ago and didn't protect the mothers life.

[jackofwind]

I think the main idea is that passing through the vagina shouldn't(and doesn't) somehow miraculously give consciousness. Babies have had needs and desires in the womb and act out as early as 6 months. They can move of their own volition by 13 weeks in subsequent pregnancies although that's more of reflexes activating. Unless we actually develop some sort of means to really dive into consciousness, it's a hard question to prove on either side. The baby is DEFINITELY alive in terms of what we consider some invalids in a hospital at some point in pregnancy that is months before birth. Hence it leads back to passing through a vagina shouldn't be any sort of precursor for being "alive".

Sure, but I've never said anything about it needing to come through a vagina to be conscious. What about C-Sections, for instance.

The scientifically irrefutable fact is that prior to having a cortex, fetuses do not have a consciousness. No matter what people's feelings are on the matter, that is an objective fact. If we're talking about late-term abortions (ie: post-5 months, which your 6 month example would fall into) they account for like 1% of abortions, and are performed if there is a fatal danger to the mother or child. It's not something that is routinely done for people just because they want to abort.

[D Luniz]

5 months. So abortions after 5 months is destroying a person? A sentiment being means what? You are aware of your surroundings? How come babies in the worm seem to be aware of being poked at a very early stage of development? *snip*

the same system that makes you jerk your hand back when you burn it on the stove

the reflex system doesnt require proper brain function, just a low level of CNS response

[jackofwind]

If you're on life support you're not alive? Dialysis as well?

Pretty different from being braindead (ie: no consciousness), don't be disingenuous.

[Daedius]

What's it matter, you wouldn't exist to worry about if they did.

[Ghostpanther]

Babies that have survived at times like that don't survive outside of a womb, they just survive outside of their mother's biological womb. A baby born at 21 weeks doesn't just go home in diapers, it's placed in an artificial womb so that it can finish developing. It's incapable of surviving on its own without outside medical aid because it's not adequately developed, and it certainly doesn't need a cortex or to be sentient to be placed in an artificial womb.

Also, late-term abortions (ie: post-5 months) are like 1% of all abortions, and only happen if there is a severe health risk to the mother and/or a fatal abnormality is detected in the fetus. You're not even making decent arguments here to support your opinion, you're doing nothing but appealing to anecdotes and emotion. Pregnancies aren't casually aborted late-term.

It should not even happen if it is only .05% of the time, unless the mother's life is in danger. Other wise, according to your own logic, it is murder. It is possible the child could have survived outside the womb. But personally I think a human life begins at conception. You are free to believe whatever you want. And the majority will think within the limits of medical science. Which is where their faith is.

I do think the heartbeat and/or the 8 week laws recently passed in some states have a chance of getting approved by the Supreme Court. As they are not out right banning all abortions, but are setting a stage at which the state feels the baby is a person. We shall see. Thomas said the Court will have to face the subject of Abortion before too long.

[Thirza]

If you're on life support you're not alive? Dialysis as well?

If I am braindead, which is the equivalency here then no I am not.

[Concequence]

I think the right to bodily autonomy supersedes the right to life in all circumstances.

That is to say, the right to control ones own body however they choose is above the right to anyone else's life.

You cannot take my organs to save another persons life. You cannot force a woman to birth a child. You cannot force her to continue to hold a child in her body. The child's life is not as important as the woman's right to control her own body. And the same should be true in all circumstances. You cannot take my blood, you cannot take my organs, you cannot use my blood or my organs, even if it would save thousands of lives to do so. It would entirely be my choice.

This same equation is in place for a fetus. The fetus does not have guaranteed use of the mothers body.

[Frogguh]

Trees are alive despite not having brains. Same thing applies to the early stages of a human life.

Abortion ends that human life.

[Endus]

That was the point. If emotion can be attached it is NOT fallacious. As much as Michael Brown was a criminal who got what he deserved, one can argue that his family could be devastated by his death(although some of them were not and sought financial betterment using his name) and while I don't feel any remorse for him, I feel for his family because I'm human. The same things apply to many arguments. It's often used in illegal immigration arguments, gun control, and free healthcare/college. I don't see you calling those fallacious. Hell I've seen you endorse them.

So, you don't understand what an appeal to emotion fallacy even is?

Because it sure isn't "people have emotions".

It means you're hoping that emotional response will cause people to make an irrational decision. Which, yes, is always irrational and unjustifiable.

[HumbleDuck]

Is masturbation murder too then?

No, it's a massacre.

/s

[Concequence]

Trees are alive despite not having brains. Same thing applies to the early stages of a human life.

Abortion ends that human life.

What about fertility clinics. does destroying eggs end the potential for human life. That egg is fertilized. It has every potential to be "alive" ... however that has been intentionally excluded because in those cases there is no one to control, so Republicans don't care.

No Woman, No one to control, no concern for those "lives". ...

[Nihilist74]

My response to that argument: what if I wish that they did?

If my parents would have aborted me, I would not have known anything about it and would be in a peaceful non-existence.

[Chernobyll]

The notion that abortion doesn’t end a life is a delusion. It ends life, period, end of story. I do not support abortion and for what I care, it doesn’t matter whether I support it or not. I just think that acts have consequences, and an abortion is a tradeoff for a much worse consequence than having a child - PTSD to not mention the worst.


For instance, if I had to concede and agree with abortion being legal (or not illegal anymore), I would propose, at the same time, that the state shouldn’t rule that a man should be obligated, by any means, to accept a responsibility of being a father if he doesn’t want too: if the woman, for any reason, wants to have the kid while the man doesn’t, then she should be on her own. After all, it is her choice.

And if it is woman's body and her choice, then it is her responsibility if she wants to have the kid while the man doesn’t want to be a father.

You can’t eat your cake and have it too.

On a side try to get a turtle’s egg in a beach and make an omelete - in most countries, where abortion is legal, that would put you into jail for some years.

Sign of times.