Do you think Classic will Overtake Retail?

[Arakakao]

hitting a wall on the second or even first boss in an instance and feeling like they can't do anything

Hello BlackWing Lair.

[Big Thanks]

Except, yes it was.

Zul Gurub
AQ20
PvP Gear

These were all catch up gear.

Catch up?

Those are not catchup content in any way or form.

That is ACTUAL content you need to do to progress to later content.

Catchup mechanisms are usually crap easy. Brain dead, little effort involved.

[Arakakao]

Catch up?

Those are not catchup content in any way or form.

That is ACTUAL content you need to do to progress to later content.

Catchup mechanisms are usually crap easy. Brain dead, little effort involved.

Please, look at the date those were released.

[Big Thanks]

Please, look at the date those were released.

But...since when an entire raid is catchup content? :S

[Sansnom]

Hardly had the impact current catch up gear has on the game. Not even in the same ballpark to the 6 month content hamster wheel we have now

How many people were at max level, relatively, compared to now?

[Ateo]

Lol @ people calling ZG, AQ 20, and PvP gear of all things catch up. Wtf are you smoking? Those are fully fleshed our raids with genuine content and one is a reward mechanism for players who dump HUNDREDS OF HOURS into PvP climbing a ladder that let’s be honest 90% of players will never obtain... the closest thing we had to catch up was Diremaul and that’s simply because it was released at a later date and blizzard finally understood itemization. Also in no way can you JUST do DM and somehow magically get a complete set of armor for your character. You still need to do things like UBRS, strath, and scholo or dump tons of gold on BOE crafted pieces.

Stop being edgy and attempting to call genuine content “catch up mechanics”.

A catch up mechanic is world quest ilvl being increased for absolutely no reason, badge gear being made available, lfr gear being more powerful than ANY previous tiers actual raid gear. Those are all things you can literally afk through and within a few days walk right into the latest and greatest current content. That is catch up mechanics.

[Arakakao]

But...since when an entire raid is catchup content? :S

Zul'Gurub was released after BlackWing Lair yet required less gear to enter, droped loot similar to Molten Core, didn't require resistance gear outside of some NR and it was optional, required 20 people intead of 40, had a 3 days lockout instead of a week and no enemy was immune to any type of school (meaning mages could go fire). Once ZG was released there was no reason to do MC again outside of one or two things. And yes, ZG was not easy but it was better than MC and much much more fun.

[Big Thanks]

Zul'Gurub was released after BlackWing Lair yet required less gear to enter, droped loot similar to Molten Core, didn't require resistance gear outside of some NR and it was optional, required 20 people intead of 40, had a 3 days lockout instead of a week and no enemy was immune to any type of school (meaning mages could go fire). Once ZG was released there was no reason to do MC again outside of one or two things. And yes, ZG was not easy but it was better than MC and much much more fun.

But my argument is that a "raid" is not catchup...because you still fall into the DKP system of getting rewarded gear...you still need an entire Guild to help you.

Catchup usually is "easy".

How does "raiding" fall into the catchup gear category?

[Shammyrock]

Wait what's wrong with catch up mechanics?

[justandulas]

Wait what's wrong with catch up mechanics?

on the surface? nothing.

The way WoW has chosen to do it the last few expansions, though, kind of undercuts the ladder of progression of the expansion and turns it into a d3 like "seasonal" approach to patches.

There's no more beating A to get to B, B to C, etc... now every patch is A and they push everyone into new A and everything else is irrelevant content.

It creates a situation with too much great content, that is deemed irrelevant just halfway into an expac.

[Shammyrock]

Ok but beating a to get to b etc usually ends up people on a being gated while most players are on c.

[justandulas]

Ok but beating a to get to b etc usually ends up people on a being gated while most players are on c.

Just don't include gates, or attunements.

With the lfr system, and the way cross realm works for normal/heroic... it doesn't make sense not to go back to the ladder of progression IMO.

It doesn't feel good to have a friend come into an expansion late and be like "yeah, but 80% of that is garbage."

EDIT: I don't want it to go back to a snobby perspective of the old days with guild poaching etc etc... but why not have the gear ladder progression come back with all the easy que's and everything? Have one set of world quests, world bosses, etc be a certain tier ilvl leading into the next, etc etc. Only fly in the ointment here is M+

[Shammyrock]

It feels better to have a friend come in late and actually play with them than not no?

[Nobleshield]

Ok but beating a to get to b etc usually ends up people on a being gated while most players are on c.

There shouldn't be an issue with that though. Guilds should be able to go at their own pace, without feeling like they need to clear A before the next "season"

What's wrong with multiple tiers valid so different guilds can work at different levels? Part of the issue here is that the prior tier has no reason to go back to. If it had some items that were still worth getting, you'd have a reason to go back to them on alt nights or casual nights or whatever (host pugs to help give back to the community, etc.).

[justandulas]

It feels better to have a friend come in late and actually play with them than not no?

you don't think that would happen relatively quickly even with the ladder progression, with todays modern looting structures and a progression to WQ/bosses too?

It doesn't have to be the worst of both worlds imo.

there can be a ladder progression system without a loot system that only drop 2-3 items for 40 people at a time. Personal loot makes the progression ladder 100% your own

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There shouldn't be an issue with that though. Guilds should be able to go at their own pace, without feeling like they need to clear A before the next "season"

What's wrong with multiple tiers valid so different guilds can work at different levels? Part of the issue here is that the prior tier has no reason to go back to. If it had some items that were still worth getting, you'd have a reason to go back to them on alt nights or casual nights or whatever (host pugs to help give back to the community, etc.).

this. I remember vanilla, tbc, wotlk... and before wow took the seasonal approach. there were guilds on every tier and going at every pace, and one of wow's biggest issues the last few years (IMHO) is it has become seasonal like D3 in a way that's "Play the patch" and not "Play BFA"

[Twdft]

on the surface? nothing.

The way WoW has chosen to do it the last few expansions, though, kind of undercuts the ladder of progression of the expansion and turns it into a d3 like "seasonal" approach to patches.

There's no more beating A to get to B, B to C, etc... now every patch is A and they push everyone into new A and everything else is irrelevant content.

It creates a situation with too much great content, that is deemed irrelevant just halfway into an expac.

The positive side about it is, that players/alts are not spread around all over the place and you can recruit easier for current content. Reclearing old content in Burning Crusade to attune new players/alts was a fucking pain.

[Nobleshield]

you don't think that would happen relatively quickly even with the ladder progression, with todays modern looting structures and a progression to WQ/bosses too?

It doesn't have to be the worst of both worlds imo.

there can be a ladder progression system without a loot system that only drop 2-3 items for 40 people at a time. Personal loot makes the progression ladder 100% your own

- - - Updated - - -



this. I remember vanilla, tbc, wotlk... and before wow took the seasonal approach. there were guilds on every tier and going at every pace, and one of wow's biggest issues the last few years (IMHO) is it has become seasonal like D3 in a way that's "Play the patch" and not "Play BFA"

What I find the funniest is Blizzard's reason was that people weren't seeing their newest raid. So instead, they push everyone to the newest raid and skip all the other raids they've done in the expansion. Which is somehow okay.

I think a lot of this is just selfish mentality e.g. Why should *I* waste my time doing older content to help someone else gear up, etc. even if they are in your guild.

[Ielenia]

What's wrong with multiple tiers valid so different guilds can work at different levels? Part of the issue here is that the prior tier has no reason to go back to. If it had some items that were still worth getting, you'd have a reason to go back to them on alt nights or casual nights or whatever (host pugs to help give back to the community, etc.).

The way I see it the issue comes when the guild needs new raiders. People stopping playing, and the guild needs replacements. So they either "poach" from other guilds that are roughly at the same level as they are, or they end up needing to 'backtrack' their progress to gear up the replacements they found.

[Forogil]

It feels better to have a friend come in late and actually play with them than not no?

Yes, and also continue to play varied contents with friends.

The current setup of raids is in most ways simply better than earlier ones.

[Big Thanks]

I think a lot of this is just selfish mentality e.g. Why should *I* waste my time doing older content to help someone else gear up, etc. even if they are in your guild.

In Classic we will have to run Molten Core for 1-2 entire years just to make some people happy with Thunderfury.

I prefer that oldschool design...its "poetry game design" it has "charm" and is "epic".
But developers get salty when only a portion of the playerbase sees the content they designed.
Its epic to have an entire raid wing you never completed...and is there waiting for you.

Its even better in Classic since it will be there waiting for you FOREVER.