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  1. #381
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenis View Post
    Azerite Traits give you bigger numbers in damage meters, yet they add nothing to gameplay (with very few exceptions). While there are choices, most of them are not valid, e.g. choosing between two traits where one of them is pretty much uselees or choosing between traits that does some damage and one of them is better in every single situation. Everyone had the strongest and most important traits pretty much right away and losing/reearning smaller ones felt REALLY bad. People would feel significantly better about BFA if there was no azerite neck and you just got traits of your choice right away and you could choose between 4-8 different traits instead of 2-4.

    Demonic meteor, gives a 5% chance per soul shard spent to refund a soul shard- not game changing

    explosive potential, when you use implosion (an ability we never usually use) and it explodes 3 or more imps, you fain haste for 15 seconds- this changed our entire gameplay, and made our whole rotation and settup entirely different

    Baleful invocation, Your Demonic Tyrant's Demonfire deals 375 additional damage, and summoning your Demonic Tyrant instantly generates 5 Soul Shards.- our demonic tyrant usually gives us NO soul shards, making the tyrant a massive dps increase, and changing our rotation as it makes us want to have 0 soul shards when we cast our tyrant, and allows us to follow up quickly

    Shadow's Bite, When your summoned Dreadstalkers fade away, they increase the damage of your Demonbolt by 47 for 8 sec.- encourages you to save your demon bolts till your dreadstalkers are done, allowing for bursts of demonbolts

    Supreme Commander, When your Demonic Tyrant expires, consume its life essence, granting you a stack of Demonic Core and increasing your Intellect by 92 for 15 sec.- gives your extra soul shards when your tyrant and other demons run out, and extends your dps cooldown by quite abit, but overall not much.

    Umbral Blaze, Your Hand of Guldan has a 15% chance to burn its target for 193 additional Shadowflame damage every 2 sec for 6 sec.- just extra damage, not really anything.

    Desperate Power, While below 50% health, your Drain Life heals for an additional 77 health each 1 sec.- should be obvious, makes drain life alot stronger at low levels making it actuallty worth using

    Lifeblood, When you use a Healthstone, gain 88 Leech for 20 sec- turns healthstone into a heal, plus a heal over time, instead of just 1 chunk.

    Terror of the Mind, You steal 770 health every 1 sec from targets affected by your Fear spell.- turns fear into a fucking hot

    we also have a few others not class based like
    Unstable Catalyst, Your spells and abilities have a chance to leak Azerite on the ground around you. Standing in the Azerite increases your primary stat by 43 for 8 sec.- which is like a trinket, so i wont link anymore.



    demonolgy alone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by Arainie View Post
    Would you mind explaining to a dinosaur in the sense of MMO design like me, why "gameplay" is so important to people nowdays?
    I mean, PvE gameplay for the first half of WoW's life was like watching paint dry compared to what we have nowdays (yes, I played it and I prefer that type of "gameplay" for various reasons). Traditionally, MMOs have never been about "gameplay" in the way you guys speak about it, but instead all about character growth, exploration and achieving goals together with other people. Still, here we are with the chief complaint on MMOC being "but muh gameplay"/"but muh rotation" etc. What happened to people? Did we get such an enormous change in playerbase, or did people just change in general? Did MoP->Legion rotation design spoil everyone and now you miss the faster paced "gameplay"?

    Enlighten me, please. You can see I'm not really concerned with how my character "feels" as long as the combat pacing is kept somewhere reasonable in the middle between turn based and whack-a-mole/button mashing (Legion M+, I don't miss you), so I'd honestly like to understand why the core focus of an MMO crowd is DPS rotations. I'm not saying there aren't story/community based complaints either, but the thing that pops up absolutely everywhere is related to character "gameplay" nowdays.
    It adds another angle for character growth which are you so striving for in Classic. You dont really care about the number on dps charts as long as it is comparable to others. But you care that your character felt different to play when you level/progress. Classic has literally same thing... Legion artifact weapon traits felt great to achieve throughout early endgame which is main part of playing WoW right now. Getting Classic talents felt great while leveling which was main part of playing WoW back then.

  3. #383
    Been ranting about this to friends and such for so long, and all it boils down to is that BfA is just a dumbed down, watered down version of Legion.

    • The zones just aren't all that great. I can only speak for the Horde, but I feel that Zul'Dazar is just a linear path around half of the zone because of all the elevation; Vuldun is on the opposite end where it's just open and desert and bland. Nazmir has a sort of good mix of both zones.
    • The class gimping in terms of removing abilities and such was the complete opposite of Legion, an Xpac that gave us MORE abilities through the artifact system.
    • The GCD change only made classes more clunky to play to the point where they backpedaled on so many abilities, taking them off the GCD once more.
    • Azerite is just a more boring, more grindy version of the artifact system. With the artifact system, you could just do a huge grind and, by the end of it, be done. But with the azerite gear you are constantly grinding because you have to keep re-unlocking azerite powers. At least in 8.2 this will be fixed.
    • The mission table is pretty much pointless. Every reward from it has been gimped to irrelevancy compared to Legion, and even in Legion they weren't all that great, or even good.
    • World quest rewards are complete dogshit. Compared to rewards from Legion, BfA WQ rewards are pretty much cut in half. There is literally no reason to do them unless you really want emissary caches, or you just have literally nothing else better to do.
    • Dungeons are even more of a damn trashfest than Legion and has always and will forever be a complaint of mine.
    • Maybe it's just me, but it feels like the raids in BfA are just harsh against small raid teams. When my guild started with close to 20 people we were doing fine. Now that we're down to 10-11 people it just feels like a pain in the ass to get anything done. Or we're just shit, I don't know. But we never had this problem in Legion.
    • The innovations are nothing exciting. Island Expeditions? A race against the clock; literally no time to explore and take in the scenery as Blizz love to tout. Warfronts? 15-30 mins of collecting resources for a 400 ilvl item; not exactly the most engaging thing in the world.
    • Everything is based around Azerite and I am just sick it of. Go do WQ's to get azerite. Go do Warfronts to get gear and azerite. Turn in dailies at the docks to get azerite. Go farm more azerite to level up your Heart of Azeroth so you can unlock azerite traits on your azerite gear until you get better azerite gear, at which point you have to farm more azerite power to level up your Heart of Azeroth to re-unlock those azerite traits. Oh, and by the way, some of those traits are really good for your class, so you best hope you get the right armor!

    My two cents, either way.

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Lenis View Post
    It adds another angle for character growth which are you so striving for in Classic. You dont really care about the number on dps charts as long as it is comparable to others. But you care that your character felt different to play when you level/progress. Classic has literally same thing... Legion artifact weapon traits felt great to achieve throughout early endgame which is main part of playing WoW right now. Getting Classic talents felt great while leveling which was main part of playing WoW back then.
    And then you got to max level and spent 1.5-2 years casting frost bolt or shadow bolt with a couple of filler spells (I know I'm generalizing but it's not far from the truth). That was reality for most classes until at least Cata/MoP, yet I never heard loud complaints about it back then. Misunderstand me right, I preferred those days to what we have now for a different reason than most people here do, but I still can't grasp why character "gameplay" takes precedence over everything else for, what it looks like, the vast majority of the MMOC posters nowdays.

    I completely agree with you that getting skills and talents regularly while leveling is more fun, but that's a different topic IMO. My original point was more aimed towards max level gameplay, mostly regarding dungeons and raids (and not at all regarding PvP, I haven't played enough in each expansion to have an opinion on it).

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Demonic meteor, gives a 5% chance per soul shard spent to refund a soul shard- not game changing

    explosive potential, when you use implosion (an ability we never usually use) and it explodes 3 or more imps, you fain haste for 15 seconds- this changed our entire gameplay, and made our whole rotation and settup entirely different

    Baleful invocation, Your Demonic Tyrant's Demonfire deals 375 additional damage, and summoning your Demonic Tyrant instantly generates 5 Soul Shards.- our demonic tyrant usually gives us NO soul shards, making the tyrant a massive dps increase, and changing our rotation as it makes us want to have 0 soul shards when we cast our tyrant, and allows us to follow up quickly

    Shadow's Bite, When your summoned Dreadstalkers fade away, they increase the damage of your Demonbolt by 47 for 8 sec.- encourages you to save your demon bolts till your dreadstalkers are done, allowing for bursts of demonbolts

    Supreme Commander, When your Demonic Tyrant expires, consume its life essence, granting you a stack of Demonic Core and increasing your Intellect by 92 for 15 sec.- gives your extra soul shards when your tyrant and other demons run out, and extends your dps cooldown by quite abit, but overall not much.

    Umbral Blaze, Your Hand of Guldan has a 15% chance to burn its target for 193 additional Shadowflame damage every 2 sec for 6 sec.- just extra damage, not really anything.

    Desperate Power, While below 50% health, your Drain Life heals for an additional 77 health each 1 sec.- should be obvious, makes drain life alot stronger at low levels making it actuallty worth using

    Lifeblood, When you use a Healthstone, gain 88 Leech for 20 sec- turns healthstone into a heal, plus a heal over time, instead of just 1 chunk.

    Terror of the Mind, You steal 770 health every 1 sec from targets affected by your Fear spell.- turns fear into a fucking hot

    we also have a few others not class based like
    Unstable Catalyst, Your spells and abilities have a chance to leak Azerite on the ground around you. Standing in the Azerite increases your primary stat by 43 for 8 sec.- which is like a trinket, so i wont link anymore.

    demonolgy alone.
    If there are so many options why every single demo warlock uses 3 Explosive Potential, 1 Baleful Invocation and whatever adds most damage as last two in every single situation? Is it really an option if u use same ones for everything?

  6. #386
    Immortal Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenis View Post
    Most people think about artifact weapons and remember it as bunch of cool shit when in reality it wasnt that big. It had no options, you had same shit as everyone else, there wasnt much innovation and most of the specs were in unplayable state without some of those passives. However, they remember it because it was part of end game progression, it was something they had to achieve and achieving it felt good. In BFA they made minor changes to make all classes playable without artifact weapon but there is no system like that in BFA. Character doesnt get any new powers. It feels unrewarding to progress in a game.
    Just because you did not get options, does not mean that the artifact did not give interesting new things to the classes. You make it sound like options is all that matters, yet things can be interesting even when you don't get a choice to choose and pick.

    Also, while many of the traits did not give a HUGE change to how a class/spec worked, it still made it more interesting. A proc on every 200 imp bolt is way more interesting than a simple 2-3% overall dmg increase. Having a chance to summon bats from the sky when your Rain of Fire does dmg, is way more interesting than just having your Rain of Fire do 15% more dmg.
    Many of the traits in the artifacts were brilliant because they gave theme to the classes and added non-interactive complexity to the many boring spells. Sure, it would have been cool to have the artifac/HoA give options to costumize your own spec, but we don't live in an ideal world. Anyway, i would much rather have an artifact system (And to some extent the old talent tree back, which sometimes gave the same thematic changes to spells) than just having our current, boring talent tree and azerite system.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Arainie View Post
    And then you got to max level and spent 1.5-2 years casting frost bolt or shadow bolt with a couple of filler spells (I know I'm generalizing but it's not far from the truth). That was reality for most classes until at least Cata/MoP, yet I never heard loud complaints about it back then. Misunderstand me right, I preferred those days to what we have now for a different reason than most people here do, but I still can't grasp why character "gameplay" takes precedence over everything else for, what it looks like, the vast majority of the MMOC posters nowdays.

    I completely agree with you that getting skills and talents regularly while leveling is more fun, but that's a different topic IMO. My original point was more aimed towards max level gameplay, mostly regarding dungeons and raids (and not at all regarding PvP, I haven't played enough in each expansion to have an opinion on it).
    Because first 6months to a year of endgame in BFA is what levelling used to be in Classic. You really want character growth in RPG. Why it has to be so much more complicated than back in a day? Because it is not 2004 anymore, we have over a decade of experience of playing MMORPGs and average Joe is probably better than cutting edge raiders were back in Vanilla. Just from watching streams I can say that a lot of system in Classic feels great but classes are simply dull, it wont take much to get really bored and only play on raid clears once a week.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    Just because you did not get options, does not mean that the artifact did not give interesting new things to the classes. You make it sound like options is all that matters, yet things can be interesting even when you don't get a choice to choose and pick.

    Also, while many of the traits did not give a HUGE change to how a class/spec worked, it still made it more interesting. A proc on every 200 imp bolt is way more interesting than a simple 2-3% overall dmg increase. Having a chance to summon bats from the sky when your Rain of Fire does dmg, is way more interesting than just having your Rain of Fire do 15% more dmg.
    Many of the traits in the artifacts were brilliant because they gave theme to the classes and added non-interactive complexity to the many boring spells. Sure, it would have been cool to have the artifac/HoA give options to costumize your own spec, but we don't live in an ideal world. Anyway, i would much rather have an artifact system (And to some extent the old talent tree back, which sometimes gave the same thematic changes to spells) than just having our current, boring talent tree and azerite system.
    You probbably read first two sentences and ignore the rest. Azerite system has same small things as well,yet thats not the point. The point is that getting them and seeing it later happen felt great, not simply having. Legion system felt like achieving, BFA feels like simply having.
    Last edited by Lenis; 2019-05-31 at 12:47 PM.

  8. #388
    Immortal Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenis View Post
    Because first 6months to a year of endgame in BFA is what levelling used to be in Classic. You really want character growth in RPG. Why it has to be so much more complicated than back in a day? Because it is not 2004 anymore, we have over a decade of experience of playing MMORPGs and average Joe is probably better than cutting edge raiders were back in Vanilla. Just from watching streams I can say that a lot of system in Classic feels great but classes are simply dull, it wont take much to get really bored and only play on raid clears once a week.


    You probbably read first two sentences and ignore the rest. Azerite system has same small things as well,yet thats not the point. The point is that getting them and seeing it later happen felt great, not simply having. Legion system felt like achieving, BFA feels like simply having.
    What the hell? I am directing myself at all of your comment, because it said the same thing: Artifacts were not that good and people like them for the wrong reason. I said otherwise.
    I am saying, that just because getting the artifact traits was a journey, getting things slowly, does not mean that it was only because of that they worked. BFA HoA could be great, even if you did not "achieve" them.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  9. #389
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenis View Post
    If there are so many options why every single demo warlock uses 3 Explosive Potential, 1 Baleful Invocation and whatever adds most damage as last two in every single situation? Is it really an option if u use same ones for everything?
    because no matter how much choice there is, no matter how many million choices there are, people will always choose the best stuff.

    also i am running 3 baleful, 1 supreme commander, 1 umbral, and 1 size regulator all fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  10. #390
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Windfury totem called, he's very sad because you forgot about him.
    hi, didn't know that shaman dps was that common on ur server, on mine didn't (server community was strong back then, and to learn about ppl from other servers was rare)
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    For SWP, pally tank was awesome to have on M'uru. Also, except for a couple of fights (Illidan says hi), you could tank with a paladin.
    u talk like it was common, and i'm pretty sure it wasn't, paladin did have an obvious lower stamina than both warrior or druid
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    No, chain heal tooltip said "If cast on a party member, the heal will only jump to other party members". But, amazingly enough, you could cast it on other people as well.
    that applies to many other better abilities that priest had like circle of heal and prayer of healing, also prayer of mending was only ability i can recall that jump to anyone who get injured in raid, still priest wasn't used instead of shaman because they don't bring shaman for ability of different party heal in a raid, but for BL
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Brutallus for meteor slash, Felmyst (people bunched around their priests for mass dispels), Eredar twins (all the raid bunched in one place), M'uru for the teams doing adds. That's at least 4/6 fights for SWP.
    so in all TBC, most bosses needed group hugging, or u meant sunwell only ? also Felmyst most of fight required spread out, u talk about specific time to absorb dmg or other, i talk in general, and not just swp

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Yeah, I'm talking about 2v2. Because if a class can get to pretty high rating just by throwing lifebloom, travel form and cyclone on their bars, it's totally balanced.
    and rogue/warrior stun-lock is even more broken if u want to count who was really 'balanced', druid solo survive was amazing but back then Mortal Strike still had 50% debuff
    Last edited by sam86; 2019-06-01 at 12:32 AM.
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  11. #391
    Scarab Lord ercarp's Avatar
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    • They made M+ a tiresome slog through trash oversatured with mechanics that are mostly non-lethal.
    • Azerite Armor has failed to replace Legion Legendaries. Whereas the Legion Legendaries changed your playstyle (in a satisfying manner) and created interesting synergies with other items, the Azerite Armor pieces are mostly littered with flat stat increases and other passive effects that might as well not be there at all for how much of an impact they have.
    • The story of BFA is questionable at best. Going directly from defeating Space Satan to a petty faction conflict around minerals makes about as little sense as Sylvanas's motives for war.
    • Nerfing Haste made gameplay on most classes feel extremely sluggish and unsatisfying.

  12. #392
    My quick answer to the OP: Enhancement Shamans used to be awesome in Legion

  13. #393
    Why is Legion even used as the bar line here? Legion was actually a good Expansion, anyone who says otherwise are just those groups of people who complain about things for the sake of complaining.
    If you want to use an example, it shoulod be "How come BFA is worse than Cata or WOD" Because those are actually bad expansions, "outside of Firelands of course"

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Infernix View Post
    There's a theory that they have two teams working on expansions and the second team is really fucking bad.

    This team did Warlords of Draenor, skipped Legion and did BfA.
    So, comeback in 1year for next awesome expansion in nylotha!

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