After Rise of Azshara, what if...

[Sondrelk]

Well, it would certainly fit from a narrative perspective.

As much as N'zoth will be important after 8.2. The final raid has never deviated massively from the initial premise of the expansion, and the initial premise of the expansion, as it was marketed and as the intro quests show. BfA is about faction war, as much old god related stuff as there is, the premise of the expansion is still Faction war, just like how MoP was also about faction war.

The final raid will be about Horde v Alliance, or more likely Horde and Alliance v Sylvanas. If N'zoth is part of that raid then he would have to be sidelined massively.

[matrix123mko]

Impossible. The League of Evil are fun and have both screentime and a motive, which bars Sylvanas from entry.

At least she has a champion with both screentime and motive.

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... Sylvanas ends up, at some point, needing the power of the Sunwell for whatever purpose, bringing war to Silvermoon again when faced with much reluctant locals

Any development for blood elves is a treasure.

[TheRevenantHero]

Azerite is literally solid titan blood which is basically the same thing the sunwell is. Besides Kel'thuzad is still alive, so you can't resurrect something that is not dead to begin with.

I don't know what the hell you're smoking because according to Chronicle Volume 3, his soul was lost to the Shadowlands.

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Well, it would certainly fit from a narrative perspective.

As much as N'zoth will be important after 8.2. The final raid has never deviated massively from the initial premise of the expansion, and the initial premise of the expansion, as it was marketed and as the intro quests show. BfA is about faction war, as much old god related stuff as there is, the premise of the expansion is still Faction war, just like how MoP was also about faction war.

The final raid will be about Horde v Alliance, or more likely Horde and Alliance v Sylvanas. If N'zoth is part of that raid then he would have to be sidelined massively.

You very clearly didn't play WoD if you think that the final raid has never deviated massively from the initial premise of the expansion. That expansion was all about the Iron Horde when SUDDENLY THE LEGION.

[Sondrelk]

I don't know what the hell you're smoking because according to Chronicle Volume 3, his soul was lost to the Shadowlands.

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You very clearly didn't play WoD if you think that the final raid has never deviated massively from the initial premise of the expansion. That expansion was all about the Iron Horde when SUDDENLY THE LEGION.

WoD was probably hte one most far removed from the initial premise, and it still managed to be mostly about the Iron horde. The raid took place in the Iron Horde fortress, many of the bosses were related to the Iron horde. And even beyond that, the initial premise of the expansion was "Horde that refused the demon blood" so having a final raid where they had actually caved and drunk the demon blood, repeating history was perfectly within the theme set up at the beginning.

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Even beyond that, can you really say that an expansion that started with going through the dark portal to stop an invasion, does not have a fitting thematic ending when we have to return to that exact same position for the final boss?

[Super Dickmann]

Any development for blood elves is a treasure.

I'm all for anyone destroying the Sunwell so the blood elves can be a Horde race again. I'd prefer if it were Alleria, but given that Sylvanas is not allowed any positive traits, she can do it too for all it matters.

Besides, we all know screen time is a bad thing if you're Horde. The second Bob got screentime he became a Baine sycophant with a squeaky voice.

[TheRevenantHero]

WoD was probably hte one most far removed from the initial premise, and it still managed to be mostly about the Iron horde. The raid took place in the Iron Horde fortress, many of the bosses were related to the Iron horde. And even beyond that, the initial premise of the expansion was "Horde that refused the demon blood" so having a final raid where they had actually caved and drunk the demon blood, repeating history was perfectly within the theme set up at the beginning.

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Even beyond that, can you really say that an expansion that started with going through the dark portal to stop an invasion, does not have a fitting thematic ending when we have to return to that exact same position for the final boss?

The last boss was literally supposed to be Grom. The whole Legion thing was shoehorned in because they realized the original plan wouldn't have fit with the next expansion. The only Iron Horde related boss in Hellfire Citadel was Teron and even he was basically just a big demon. Sorry but you're just wrong about your comment.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

Why? The original Sunwell, without the Naaru spark, was only a vial full of water from the Well of Eternity in a normal body of water. I don't think that's more Titan blood than a handful and look what it did, in Quel'thalas and in the lake on Mount Hyjal, the second Well of Eternity (ok, that was several hands full^^)

IIRC wasn't there some nexus if power/convergence of leylines prior to the whole Vials of Eternity pouring?

BTW, given how the Bronze is in shambles (Mag'har, tailoring, more infinite if Dragon Isles), I wonder if those 2 vials of Eternity we handed them back in BC will ever surface again (Battle of Hyjal attunement).

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The last boss was literally supposed to be Grom. The whole Legion thing was shoehorned in because they realized the original plan wouldn't have fit with the next expansion. The only Iron Horde related boss in Hellfire Citadel was Teron and even he was basically just a big demon. Sorry but you're just wrong about your comment.

Pretty sure there was Killrog Deadeye at least in HFC.

[matrix123mko]

I'm all for anyone destroying the Sunwell so the blood elves can be a Horde race again. I'd prefer if it were Alleria, but given that Sylvanas is not allowed any positive traits, she can do it too for all it matters.

Isn't Sunwell useless anyway? I haven't seen blood elf mage for centuries.

Besides, we all know screen time is a bad thing if you're Horde. The second Bob got screentime he became a Baine sycophant with a squeaky voice.

Is there any reason why did he join Saurfang? Why does he hate Sylvanas? My only idea is that blood elves are all somehow into humans.

[DeicideUH]

... Sylvanas ends up, at some point, needing the power of the Sunwell for whatever purpose, bringing war to Silvermoon again when faced with much reluctant locals :

Undeath -> Death -> Shadowlands -> Shadow -> Void

+ Sunwell

= issue (as displayed by Alleria's mere presence in the Nightborne Allied Race recruiting scenario)

Would be plain ridiculous if she had the Phylactery of Kel'Thuzad and was planning on enslaving him to complement her Val'kyr before heading to Northrend to claim the Frozen Throne and the Crown of the Damned.

I've made a similar theory.

Sylvanas’ motivations

- Helya was the one who weakened Vol’jin, leading to his fatal wound.
- Vol’jin was already dead when Sylvanas was appointed Warchief. It was Helya manipulating Vol’jin’s corpse. That’s why Vol’jin can’t remember things clearly.
- Some other entity brought Vol’jin’s spirit back from the Other Side. My bet is Rezan.
- Once Sylvanas was made warchief, Helya leaked information about Eyir and herself to her, leading her to Stormheim and their pact.
- Helya survived her own death due to the pact. She’s now in contact with Sylvanas.
- Sylvanas’ endgame, guided by Helya, is to kill Azeroth and everyone in it, turning the whole world into a realm of undeath, with Helya as its goddess.

Reasons for the War

- The whole war is just a distraction while Sylvanas and Helya work in the background towards their endgame.
- The Void fears Sylvanas because she would lead to the death of the World Soul, and her plans would kill even N’Zoth.
- However, N’Zoth has his own plans, and is trying to get ahead of Sylvanas.
- N’Zoth made a pact with Xal’atath because he knew Sylvanas/Helya would use the blade in their plans. So, he freed the entity in it and replaced it with his own essence, essentially derailing Sylvanas/Helya’s plans.

Final Patch’s possible plot

- Final patch is going to be a four-way conflict between Alliance/Horde/Sylvanas/N’Zoth. The Alliance/Horde part will be developed in questing, while the battle between Death and Void will be the theme of the final raid.
- “On the eve of her third death” is about Helya. Her death will lead to N’Zoth freeing himself.
- I still think the final patch will be set in Quel’thalas and both Helya and N’Zoth want the Sunwell to power their efforts.
- I also still think the void elves will be revealed as mostly traitors serving the Void in the final patch. Not all of them, but I think Umbric will be one of the traitors. They will lay a trap to transform more elves, since a lot of thalassians in both sides will be present in a Quel’thalas story. You know where this goes… That’s how void elves will get a “real race” status, but the “new” void elves have a completely different mindset from their predecessors, as dealing with the void was never a choice they made, so they view it as a curse.
- So, in essence, Alliance has been used as pawns of the Void (“The boy king serves at the master’s table”), while Horde was manipulated by Death.
- N’Zoth will be freed but not as we imagine it. Rather than breaking his prison, his essence in Xal’atatah will gain a mortal form, in a Nyarlathotep way, and he will be set up as a villain to plague us over future expansions.

[Super Dickmann]

Isn't Sunwell useless anyway? I haven't seen blood elf mage for centuries.

The Sunwell solves their mana addiction and turns them holy, thus also making them boring.

Is there any reason why did he join Saurfang? Why does he hate Sylvanas? My only idea is that blood elves are all somehow into humans.

He's salty about that time Sylvanas made the blood elves actually contribute to the Horde way back in TBC. He's also jealous of All That is Best in the Horde (TM) for how much attention Anduin-senpai gives him.

[Sondrelk]

The last boss was literally supposed to be Grom. The whole Legion thing was shoehorned in because they realized the original plan wouldn't have fit with the next expansion. The only Iron Horde related boss in Hellfire Citadel was Teron and even he was basically just a big demon. Sorry but you're just wrong about your comment.

How so?
As i said, WoD was the one most far removed from my point, and even with it being the most disconnected, it still had most everything to do with the opening.
The initial premise was orcs coming though the dark portal because something-something demon blood. At the end, we have to stop orcs going through the dark portal because something-something demon blood.
The entire premise of the final patch is "Everything the iron horde stood for has gone wrong, and now, in a shocking twist, the future they tried to avoid by not drinking the demon blood came to pass anyways, leading to us having to prevent history from literally repeating itself.

I will agree that maybe the color palette didn't fit. You started with orcs with brown and red color palettes, and then moved slowly into orcs with green and black color palettes. Again, the entire point of the final patch is that despite Grom trying his damndest to not lead the orcs down a dark path, he realizes at the end he failed.
(And then BfA came with the Mag'har orc scenario and showed he didnt learn a damn thing, but i digress)


Expansion starts with us learning there is an alternate expansion where orcs refused the demon blood, but they still want ot invade, so we go through the dark portal to their stronghold to stop them.
The expansion then ends with us learning that despite our best efforts at dismantlign the war machine, history has repeated itself, and orcs have drunk the demon blood, and we return to the Iron horde stronghold to find it turned into something that looks remarkably similar to the Hellfire citadel we knew from Outland.

If that is not a final raid that closes off the main plotline we started with, then i donæt know what is.
You might as well claim that Cata had a non-thematic ending because it took place in Northrend instead of EK/Kalimdor, or that Legion did not have a fitting end because Argus was blue instead of green.

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Funny you mention Grom being supposed ot be the final boss of WoD, because he is with us at the final boss afterall, just to really hammer home that we have come full circle.

[Thage]

He's salty about that time Sylvanas made the blood elves actually contribute to the Horde way back in TBC. He's also jealous of All That is Best in the Horde (TM) for how much attention Anduin-senpai gives him.

More specifically (for @matrix123mko ), he has a grudge because he'd already agreed to a token contribution to the Northrend war effort, feeling that was all the blood elves could afford after everything that went down in 2.4, and she essentially held the Horde's tenuous hold on the Ghostlands hostage, threatening to leave the blood elves at the Scourge's mercy if he didn't contribute troops to her war effort (there are two concurrent Horde war efforts, with the Warsong Offensive being the 'main' Horde force while the Forsaken did their own thing in a two-prong attack).

That grudge has been a constant source of friction between the two, such that he's left her high and dry every time he's gotten the opportunity out of sheer spite. When Sylvanas spoke out against Garrosh, he waited until she made herself look like an ass to later subtly admonish Garrosh after the meeting. He didn't hesitate to get on her case when she made an off-the-cuff joke about raising the blood elves at Orgrimmar. And now his only issue with Baine's rebellion was the timing, which mirrors what little we know of his opinion of Vol'jin openly speaking out against Garrosh back in 5.1 when it was well known by then (at least among the leadership) Garrosh was a paranoid nutter.

[matrix123mko]

The Sunwell solves their mana addiction and turns them holy, thus also making them boring.

I still can't understand why no one sniffs Azerite.

[eurojust]

Isn't Sunwell useless anyway? I haven't seen blood elf mage for centuries.


Is there any reason why did he join Saurfang? Why does he hate Sylvanas? My only idea is that blood elves are all somehow into humans.

Because he became a Horde lover somehow and gives the benefit of the survival of his people during TBC to the Horde instead of Sylvanas.
Another terrible thing about this plot is that he just doesn't care about the Sunreavers at all. Jaina is now his superfriend and the Sunreavers got what they deserve, despite the fact that it was one of the major reason why the Blood Elves remained Horde.
They want to push Jaina the mary sue so hard that they just brush off the slaughter of the Sunreavers and make them the bad guys that even the Blood Elves hate.

[Super Dickmann]

-snip- Garrosh was a paranoid nutter.

It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you and have been sabotaging you endlessly at every turn since the second you got on the chair. That said, the rest is basically true, though the situation with Garrosh and Sylvanas is different in the sense that his reaction in 5.1 was to build his own powerbase and act subtly in 5.2, whereas his reaction in 8.2 is to take emotional moves to benefit someone he's never exchanged a single line of dialogue with who he admonished for putting his own people at risk in the previous patch. So he still manages to be out of character. Unless what we're meant to learn from this is that Lor'themar regrets that he isn't more like Baine and this is how he makes up for it.

@matrix123mko

T-rating.

[Thage]

It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you and have been sabotaging you endlessly at every turn since the second you got on the chair. That said, the rest is basically true, though the situation with Garrosh and Sylvanas is different in the sense that his reaction in 5.1 was to build his own powerbase and act subtly in 5.2, whereas his reaction in 8.2 is to take emotional moves to benefit someone he's never exchanged a single line of dialogue with who he admonished for putting his own people at risk in the previous patch. So he still manages to be out of character. Unless what we're meant to learn from this is that Lor'themar regrets that he isn't more like Baine and this is how he makes up for it.

I think the message Blizz is trying (and generally failing) to convey is that those sympathetic with Baine have essentially had their hand forced. Unlike Vol'jin, Baine was arrested in full view of the entire Horde leadership, not assassinated in a distant cave with tons of plausible deniability. Hence Lor'themar's main gripe being Baine's timing in this fiasco; he probably would have greatly preferred Baine not get himself caught when none of the leaders sympathetic to him have had time to prepare to square up against one of the Horde's most popular (among the civilians and rank-and-file troops) leaders and its Warchief, and her smug boytoy.

Then things to tits-up at Nazjatar and Lor'themar and Thalyssra have to work alongside Jaina for survival's sake, with direct allusions to 5.2 made. Again, Blizz writing here, but I think this is supposed to be the groundwork along with Anduin and Saurfang's budding bromance (and Anduin and Baine's established bromance and Thrall's established bromance with several Alliance figures) for the Alliance to back up the Horde rebels out of altruism this time (whereas when Varian made the call it was to use the Horde as a buffer to minimize losses).

@matrix123mko

T-rating.

I can totally see doing lines of Azerite being popular among goblin and blood elf socialites, though.

[Super Dickmann]

Then things to tits-up at Nazjatar and Lor'themar and Thalyssra have to work alongside Jaina for survival's sake, with direct allusions to 5.2 made. Again, Blizz writing here, but I think this is supposed to be the groundwork along with Anduin and Saurfang's budding bromance (and Anduin and Baine's established bromance and Thrall's established bromance with several Alliance figures) for the Alliance to back up the Horde rebels out of altruism this time (whereas when Varian made the call it was to use the Horde as a buffer to minimize losses).

I do agree that that's what they're trying to communicate, but it's a complete failure because it simply happens and is incongruent with the motivation of anyone involved. The intention here is that by making the Horde rebels and the Alliance tied at the hip from the start, to the point where all rebels are either directly freed by the Alliance, spare the Alliance or turn on Sylvanas because of what happens to the Alliance they can more easily transition into a faction-less situation later. But it isn't earned because it flies in the face of both their prior characterization, their inaction to more serious things Sylvanas has done to their own and especially how they've characterized the Horde masses and soldiers as backing Sylvanas. This ripples over to the Alliance where forgiveness is inane when it's really only an upper crust of like ten people who want to rebel by 8.2, prior to any info of Sylvanas being an old god puppet coming out.

I can totally see doing lines of Azerite being popular among goblin and blood elf socialites, though.

That's how Gallywix makes his money.

[Mehrunes]

More specifically (for @matrix123mko ), he has a grudge because he'd already agreed to a token contribution to the Northrend war effort, feeling that was all the blood elves could afford after everything that went down in 2.4, and she essentially held the Horde's tenuous hold on the Ghostlands hostage, threatening to leave the blood elves at the Scourge's mercy if he didn't contribute troops to her war effort (there are two concurrent Horde war efforts, with the Warsong Offensive being the 'main' Horde force while the Forsaken did their own thing in a two-prong attack).

No, he did not? Sylvanas was the one who informed him that the Horde declared war on the Scourge in the first place and it happened in the same meeting in which she informed Lor'themar that had he betrayed the Horde by ignoring the Warchief's call to war that she was relaying to him, she'd withdraw Forsaken from Ghostlands.

So, @matrix123mko, Lor'themar is essentially salty because he was openly contemplating not obeying his Warchief's call to war, i.e. treason openly right in front of the very Horde leader that relayed the Warchief's command him and Sylvanas informed him of the obvious consequences of such behavior, i.e. losing Horde support. Because Lor'themar apparently thought he could eat his cake and have it too when it came to the Horde.

Also there's the obvious respect he has for Baine that he developed during their many meetings and the times they worked together. They're best buds so of course he'd go save him.

[vilememory]

Sylvanas teams up with N'zoth to fight the greatest threat to Azeroth! ELUNE! She is actually an Old God Naaru Tumor, the moon isn't actually a moon! That is all Elune with a shell exterior to look like a moon. Having corrupted Tyrande she now seeks to take Azeroth for herself, having always been watching from above for the other Old Gods to kill each other off so she could usurp the weakened last survivor. But the Titans spoiled her plans, and she remained hidden using the night elves as her agents without them realizing it.

[formerShandalay]

IIRC wasn't there some nexus if power/convergence of leylines prior to the whole Vials of Eternity pouring?

BTW, given how the Bronze is in shambles (Mag'har, tailoring, more infinite if Dragon Isles), I wonder if those 2 vials of Eternity we handed them back in BC will ever surface again (Battle of Hyjal attunement).

<snip>

Yes, they poured the vial when they were in territory that was rich with ley energies according to the ingame book "The Founding of Quel'thalas". But what I mean is, if one vial is enough for that, a handful of Azerite should be too, because I don't think one hand full of Titan blood is less than a vial full of Titan blood.

I'm not sure if Blizz will do anything with the vials from BC, but if they do, they'll kind of have to do it now or at the beginning of the next expansion, because I think the Bronzes will get to play some major role. ^^

It took just three vials to recreate the Well of Eternity.

Yes, that was what I meant with 'several hands full'.