After Rise of Azshara, what if...

[Zandalariprelate]

I don't know what the hell you're smoking because according to Chronicle Volume 3, his soul was lost to the Shadowlands.

Well chronicles mentions this as a "rumor" and his fate is still unknown, however considering there is a cult of the damned in the WoD storyline of Arak and some shadow council members went to clean up necromancers from Scholomance in the scepter of sargeras questline, I would say KT is planning something.

[matrix123mko]

Sylvanas teams up with N'zoth to fight the greatest threat to Azeroth! ELUNE! She is actually an Old God Naaru Tumor, the moon isn't actually a moon! That is all Elune with a shell exterior to look like a moon. Having corrupted Tyrande she now seeks to take Azeroth for herself, having always been watching from above for the other Old Gods to kill each other off so she could usurp the weakened last survivor. But the Titans spoiled her plans, and she remained hidden using the night elves as her agents without them realizing it.

I would like that plot twist.

[Aeula]

What if instead of that Blizzard just ended the expansion- No. The entire fucking game. -then and there by having N’zoth win. That’s the only mercy we can possibly hope for in this bottomless pit of horrific writing and piss poor game design.

[Combatbutler]

Why? The original Sunwell, without the Naaru spark, was only a vial full of water from the Well of Eternity in a normal body of water. I don't think that's more Titan blood than a handful and look what it did, in Quel'thalas and in the lake on Mount Hyjal, the second Well of Eternity (ok, that was several hands full^^)

Azerite is pure titan blood in crystalline form, the sunwell was created with a single vial of the stuff, and naaru aren't really that powerful compared to that. So yeah a handful of Azerite should by all means eclipse the well in power. So Sylvanas trying to get her hands on the sunwell despite powersources more potent literally lying around the globe does not make any sense.

This bag here should contain more power than the new well of eternity for example.

https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/scree...all/788201.jpg

[formerShandalay]

Azerite is pure titan blood in crystalline form, the sunwell was created with a single vial of the stuff, and naaru aren't really that powerful compared to that. So yeah a handful of Azerite should by all means eclipse the well in power. So Sylvanas trying to get her hands on the sunwell despite powersources more potent literally lying around the globe does not make any sense.

This bag here should contain more power than the new well of eternity for example.

https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/scree...all/788201.jpg

I agree with that. Almost all of even the small puddles of Azerite we see in the world should hold enough Titan blood that you can do almost everything with it. Also, holy crap... we should all be addicts by now ^^

There's a few things, however, that I can imagine the Sunwell does better than Azerite. The Sunwell now also contains Light which could be turned to Shadow and the Sunwell's energies are probably more connected to the land and the people and creatures living there. If Sylvanas wants a nation full of Dark Rangers, she might want to use a corruptible power source already connected to a nation of elves.
However I think this is maybe a little too far out of a plan and I also don't think Blizzard will want to do anything with Quel'thalas and the Sunwell. Before they do that, they will first make a Siege of Stormwind happen. That is my guess, anyway.

[Seylene]

I mean ideally after Rise of Azshara it will be Fall of Sylvanas. But at this point I figure we still have to see another big raise to prove that her power has grown so BEs might be the right target, circling back to the threat she made at Siege. I mean heck she might raise the Sunreavers we kill from rescuing Baine and make them Dark Spellbreakers or some such nonsense.

[Jastall]

The last boss was literally supposed to be Grom. The whole Legion thing was shoehorned in because they realized the original plan wouldn't have fit with the next expansion. The only Iron Horde related boss in Hellfire Citadel was Teron and even he was basically just a big demon. Sorry but you're just wrong about your comment.

Well being fair, the first two bosses, Hellfire Council and Kilrogg could easily have been Iron Horde bosses with little but a palette swap, and may have been conceived that way originally even, hell I wouldn't be surprised if several bosses from the upper Citadel (Socrethar and Tyrant, possibly Gorefiend as well) were originally slated for the canceled Sharrath raid and they mashed the two together to create HFC after veering off from the premise mid-xpack.

But endbosses being a bit of a surprise was more the norm than not if you ask me. Who thought we would fight Kil'jaeden in the Sunwell during an xpack about Outland? If Blizzard didn't outright tell us, who could really have planned Garrosh would be the endboss when Mists began? Archimonde is obviously far removed from the Iron Horde premise of course, but Legion ended with us beating up a previously unknown nascent Titan instead of a demon lord or Sargeras himself. BfA was ostensibly about the faction war, but the factions are already teaming up (except for nasty eeevil Sylvanas) and we were outright told we would know who the final boss of the xpack is when we finish the raid where N'zoth gets released which kind of narrows down our options, doesn't it?

[Sondrelk]

Well being fair, the first two bosses, Hellfire Council and Kilrogg could easily have been Iron Horde bosses with little but a palette swap, and may have been conceived that way originally even, hell I wouldn't be surprised if several bosses from the upper Citadel (Socrethar and Tyrant, possibly Gorefiend as well) were originally slated for the canceled Sharrath raid and they mashed the two together to create HFC after veering off from the premise mid-xpack.

But endbosses being a bit of a surprise was more the norm than not if you ask me. Who thought we would fight Kil'jaeden in the Sunwell during an xpack about Outland? If Blizzard didn't outright tell us, who could really have planned Garrosh would be the endboss when Mists began? Archimonde is obviously far removed from the Iron Horde premise of course, but Legion ended with us beating up a previously unknown nascent Titan instead of a demon lord or Sargeras himself. BfA was ostensibly about the faction war, but the factions are already teaming up (except for nasty eeevil Sylvanas) and we were outright told we would know who the final boss of the xpack is when we finish the raid where N'zoth gets released which kind of narrows down our options, doesn't it?

Kil'jaeden was a surprise, true. Theme was perfectly in theme though.

Arthas was obviously going to be the endboss, and so it was.
Same with Deathwing.

Garrosh was a surprise only from the perspective of someone not listening to any Blizz announcements, given how they flat out said that Garrosh would be the final boss before MoP even began. Even with that you could probably guess somehting was up from all the horde leaders conspiring against him, and Alliance going against him because he was the warchief.

Archimonde was a surprise, i'll give you that one. But that always felt more to me like you said, there was a scrapped Shattrath demon themed raid in hte middle of the expansion that was cut.

Argus however was completely out of left field, mostly because there was no previous indication that Argus was a titan soul.

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So looking at the tally it is pretty dead-even with "surprise" endbosses.

If you look at it from how Blizz is going about story now though, i think you have a perfectly valid point. I think Blizz learned their lesson from MoP about predictable endbosses.
Even with that i think it has more to do with the choice of setting.

[THEORACLE64]

... Sylvanas ends up, at some point, needing the power of the Sunwell for whatever purpose, bringing war to Silvermoon again when faced with much reluctant locals :

Undeath -> Death -> Shadowlands -> Shadow -> Void

+ Sunwell

= issue (as displayed by Alleria's mere presence in the Nightborne Allied Race recruiting scenario)

Would be plain ridiculous if she had the Phylactery of Kel'Thuzad and was planning on enslaving him to complement her Val'kyr before heading to Northrend to claim the Frozen Throne and the Crown of the Damned.

She already destroyed the Night Elves home and capital - that’s her Arthas mirror of that story right there.

[Sondrelk]

I will give Blizz some leeway with N'zoth. I believe the exact phrasing was that the cinematic would reveal the endboss. And a lot could happen in that cinematic that we have no idea about. N'zoth will probably be released. But the topic of the cinematic could esily be about Lor'themar saying how they need to remove Sylvanas from the Horde before it is too late, setting Sylvanas up for endboss perfectly well.

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She already destroyed the Night Elves home and capital - that’s her Arthas mirror of that story right there.

There has also been the Anduin/Arthas mirror with him going into Lordaeron, mirroring the iconic walk Arthas did. Blizz could easily have another one of those where Anduin leads a charge against Sylvanas who is entrenched on Quel'danas by going over the exact same path Arthas once did.

[THEORACLE64]

I will give Blizz some leeway with N'zoth. I believe the exact phrasing was that the cinematic would reveal the endboss. And a lot could happen in that cinematic that we have no idea about. N'zoth will probably be released. But the topic of the cinematic could esily be about Lor'themar saying how they need to remove Sylvanas from the Horde before it is too late, setting Sylvanas up for endboss perfectly well.

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There has also been the Anduin/Arthas mirror with him going into Lordaeron, mirroring the iconic walk Arthas did. Blizz could easily have another one of those where Anduin leads a charge against Sylvanas who is entrenched on Quel'danas by going over the exact same path Arthas once did.

It doesn’t make sense for Anduin though. It’s fairly obvious at this point they’re intentionally mirroring Arthas and Sylvanas - in the sense of Sylvanas becoming the very thing she despised, despite doing it for “good” reason.

[Sondrelk]

It doesn’t make sense for Anduin though. It’s fairly obvious at this point they’re intentionally mirroring Arthas and Sylvanas - in the sense of Sylvanas becoming the very thing she despised, despite doing it for “good” reason.

Why would it not make sense for Anduin?
I am not suggesting he should act like Arthas and kill stuff wantonly. But the Anduin/Arthas parallel has a precedent in Lordaeron.
He is a human prince triumphantly returning to Lordaeron to conquer it, Arthas took it from the living in a bid to make it undead, Anduin conversely is trying to wrest it from the undead to return it to it's former glory.

Similarly, Anduin possibly attacking Quel'danas by marching north is perfectly valid. He would be going on the same path as Arthas, except this time for noble reasons. Which would also be a perfect mirror to Sylvanas, who would again be playing the heroic defender, except this time not os heroic.

[THEORACLE64]

Why would it not make sense for Anduin?
I am not suggesting he should act like Arthas and kill stuff wantonly. But the Anduin/Arthas parallel has a precedent in Lordaeron.
He is a human prince triumphantly returning to Lordaeron to conquer it, Arthas took it from the living in a bid to make it undead, Anduin conversely is trying to wrest it from the undead to return it to it's former glory.

Similarly, Anduin possibly attacking Quel'danas by marching north is perfectly valid. He would be going on the same path as Arthas, except this time for noble reasons. Which would also be a perfect mirror to Sylvanas, who would again be playing the heroic defender, except this time not os heroic.

It makes *more* sense for Sylvanas. If you can’t see why or how her and Arthas’ stories mirror each other then...

[Sondrelk]

It makes *more* sense for Sylvanas. If you can’t see why or how her and Arthas’ stories mirror each other then...

They both mirror each other. It is not like only 1 character at a time can be a narrative foil.
Again, it is kind of stupid to argue this, because Blizz has already made the Anduin/Arthas parallel.
If you want to really get deep into narrative theory, then you could also argue that Anduin is the only Arthas parallel, and Sylvanas is just a dark mirror of herself, which just so happens to look startlingly similar ot Arthas.

[THEORACLE64]

They both mirror each other. It is not like only 1 character at a time can be a narrative foil.
Again, it is kind of stupid to argue this, because Blizz has already made the Anduin/Arthas parallel.
If you want to really get deep into narrative theory, then you could also argue that Anduin is the only Arthas parallel, and Sylvanas is just a dark mirror of herself, which just so happens to look startlingly similar ot Arthas.

They’ve only made the parallel by having some fan service in the cinematic, that’s all. Sylvanas’ story right now has literally mirrored Arthas’ descent. Anduin couldn’t be further from what Arthas’ story was and represented.

[Sondrelk]

They’ve only made the parallel by having some fan service in the cinematic, that’s all. Sylvanas’ story right now has literally mirrored Arthas’ descent. Anduin couldn’t be further from what Arthas’ story was and represented.

That piece of fanservice was still made to evoke the image of Arthas.
I am not going to argue that Sylvanas has MORE parallels. But trying ot claim that Anduin does not also have parallels to Arthas just comes off to me like blatantly moving hte goalposts, his entire character at this point reads almost like a direct "good" version of Arthas.

He has a magical sword that he gained at a low point in his life that gave him renewed purpose. He is a prince of a kingdom that people adores, and like Arthas he was trained in the ways of the light.
Let us now not forget that there was even the very iconic scene in cinematic trailer for BfA where he ressurected a bunch of people.

[THEORACLE64]

That piece of fanservice was still made to evoke the image of Arthas.
I am not going to argue that Sylvanas has MORE parallels. But trying ot claim that Anduin does not also have parallels to Arthas just comes off to me like blatantly moving hte goalposts, his entire character at this point reads almost like a direct "good" version of Arthas.

He has a magical sword that he gained at a low point in his life that gave him renewed purpose. He is a prince of a kingdom that people adores, and like Arthas he was trained in the ways of the light.
Let us now not forget that there was even the very iconic scene in cinematic trailer for BfA where he ressurected a bunch of people.

Exactly - that was the whole point of the fan-service. You can find parallels in any character, however, they’re clearly not going down that road with Anduin. Seeing as this is going off-topic I bid you farewell.

[Sondrelk]

Exactly - that was the whole point of the fan-service. You can find parallels in any character, however, they’re clearly not going down that road with Anduin. Seeing as this is going off-topic I bid you farewell.

Whil i want ot agree that the discussion has derailed somewhat, i still cannot get over this argument.
Are you saying that blatant parellels are proof of NO parallels?
If you want ot say that fanservice cannot have bearing on the story, then i can just as easily claim that Sylvanas' descent suffers from the exact same problems.

[Zandalariprelate]

That piece of fanservice was still made to evoke the image of Arthas.
I am not going to argue that Sylvanas has MORE parallels. But trying ot claim that Anduin does not also have parallels to Arthas just comes off to me like blatantly moving hte goalposts, his entire character at this point reads almost like a direct "good" version of Arthas.

He has a magical sword that he gained at a low point in his life that gave him renewed purpose. He is a prince of a kingdom that people adores, and like Arthas he was trained in the ways of the light.
Let us now not forget that there was even the very iconic scene in cinematic trailer for BfA where he ressurected a bunch of people.

They are trying to make a poor carbon copy of king Arthur rather than Arthas, Anduin lacks everything that Arthas was, he was a great field commander, fighter and a poor diplomatic with a short temper, Anduin is the total opposite with sucking in everything that is military related but in relationships, forming bonds and diplomacy, he is a very capable person, both are like Yin and Yan

[Sondrelk]

They are trying to make a poor carbon copy of king Arthur rather than Arthas, Anduin lacks everything that Arthas was, he was a great field commander, fighter and a poor diplomatic with a short temper, Anduin is the total opposite with sucking in everything that is military related but in relationships, forming bonds and diplomacy, he is a very capable person, both are like Yin and Yan

Arthas was already the evil version of king Arthur in that sense.
When you make a narrative foil, you do not have to have the character be a direct copy of all the traits, the important part is making neugh allusions to the character to make it clear what you are supposed to be seeing.

Arthas was an evil take on the Arthur legend, he got a magic sword that he used for evil, then gained his trusted advisors and went on a reign of evil, killing his people.
Then Anduin was a good take on Arthas, He got a magic sword, but used it for good, then managed to rally his people against his foes, instead of being the enemy that his people rallied against.