Nazjatar Gear - A casual player dream?

[SirCowdog]

Don't worry about it its none of your business wasn't even talking to you sir.

Right, a non-answer. I checked your post history, and you have a habit of posting inflammatory jabs that don't add anything to conversations.

Thanks for wasting everyone's time.

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I don't understand how something as short-lived as ilvl can cause such an uproar..
I really don't. You guys do know these 425 pieces will be obsolete when 8.3 comes, right ?

Because it's not a discussion about just this gear or just this patch. It's about the entire design philosophy. Benthic gear is just a symptom of a larger problem.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

8.3?

You mean...Classic WoW for the next 2 years?

Well that is what I will be doing. Not to say it doesn't have faults but at least every 3 months everything I did before hand becomes utterly pointless.

[Perkunas]

Because it's not a discussion about just this gear or just this patch. It's about the entire design philosophy. Benthic gear is just a symptom of a larger problem.

You're wasting your energy. This is the type of player Blizzard has fostered in Retail. The overly demanding and entitled "MMO Locust" who shriek like banshees the moment they stop being pacified with handouts. It's basically the old tale of If You Give a Mouse a Cookie and on the whole there is not much hope for that sad excuse for a community. These people never belonged in this genre as at it's core the design philosophy was time and overall effort equal reward, but now that they make up the masses of the retail community there's no going back for that version of the game.

[Xecks]

wow. the entitlement is strong with this one.

i mean really. you just want an i win button from the sounds of it.

but its ok cause it would only take a month right?

[Syrah-the-Old-One]

Because it's not a discussion about just this gear or just this patch. It's about the entire design philosophy. Benthic gear is just a symptom of a larger problem.

Yeah, but this kind of "shortcut" was implemented since back in MoP, and everyone was fine about it so far afaik. The only difference here is that they didn't implement it during the last patch of the Xpack this time.

It's a non-problem imo. It's not like they're handing over free gear as soon as you log in : you have to actually spend time to acquire it.
We all pay for a subscription, from the most hardcore farmer to the most casual roleplayer. The base philosophy here is that as long as you take the time to farm something, you get the rewards. And this is fair in my opinion.

People who raid, do PvP or care about ilvl have other things to reward their playstyle, being titles, mounts, or, call me old fashioned, the very satisfaction to have "won the game", even for a brief period of time overall.

Let other people have nice things too.. It's not that big of a deal.

[SirCowdog]

It's not like they're handing over free gear as soon as you log in : you have to actually spend time to acquire it.

The base philosophy here is that as long as you take the time to farm something, you get the rewards.

The problem is that the reward from farming is way out of proportion with the amount of effort. Just spending time on something doesn't mean it should automatically be super good. I've made several analogies and examples in this thread to that effect.

I'm sorry, but there's no good argument for the idea that someone who only does the lowest level challenge should deserve the same reward as someone overcoming something ten times more difficult and complex. If all you're doing is killing trash mobs, then all you deserve to get is trash rewards.

As I said to Togabito: It's like throwing paper wads at a trash can 5 feet away and expecting the same rewards as a professional basketball player. And it's not even that I don't think players should get SOMETHING for farming hours a day. It's just that the magnitude is way off here.

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Why do you care what someone is going to do with the gear? What difference does that make? People have their own reasons for pursuing a reward that matters to them and maybe not to anyone else.

And what's with the challenge-fetish? Many people are playing just for fun, not to better themselves or overcome challenges. This is a damn game, after all. Challenge is there for those who want it and mindless repetition is there for those who want that, and making both rewarding (albeit at different times, soon for challenge and not-so-soon for repetition) keeps both groups of people playing and hurts no one at all. It's not like giving the mindless months-long grinder some nice gear is picking your pocket so why get your panties in such a bunch about it?

I was trying to make a point. If all a player does is play the lowest difficulty(M+0 and LFR according to the OP), then what purpose does getting higher and higher gear serve. He's just going to go back to that same content and it's going to be even easier, and have NO rewards left for him to get. What's the point? He's just treading water and going nowhere.

However, if that same player had actually been required to overcome an actual challenge to get that gear, the gear has meaning. The struggle has meaning. The player got better at the game, and could go on to the next challenge(which his gear helps him be prepared for). This is called progression, which is the point of the game, and what gear is for. If you never progress because you just sit at the bottom repeating the same thing, then getting better gear is meaningless. It's a pointless pursuit.


If you still don't understand how the entire system breaks down when you give the same rewards from trash mobs as what comes from a heroic raid, then I don't know what to tell you. It undermines the entire point of the game. If you want to be rewarded for doing virtually nothing, then it doesn't matter how much time you spend doing virtually nothing.

Now...I'll grant that this is partially the fault of the game itself for not providing open world challenges for players like Togabito to progress through. They've never been challenged. The game has conditioned them to expect massive rewards for not ever testing themselves. That's a flaw I think could be addressed.

Other games have done this. ESO allows you to start over once you hit max level, and go through all the questing content again, but with everything scaling up to higher difficulty. The Division 2 has world tiers, where mobs get harder and smarter, but you get better loot. New Game+ in Dark Souls.

The point being: If all you want is to do the easiest content, then all you should get is the lowest rewards. That's fair. Asking for the highest rewards for doing the easiest content just isn't.

[Vynestra]

some of it will be good for even m raiders at the start, unless you have 425 in every slot, you'll be able to focus on upgrading your weak spots before the raid opens.

[Syrah-the-Old-One]

snip

I do see your point here, and I agree it's a bit off. They're obviously trying something here. Maybe their intention is to make this gear last for a bit and be reliable even for 8.3 ? I don't know.

The problem is that this will be obsolete in a few months though. And, people who "tryhard" ARE gonna get better gear than this one in the end. The margin will simply be a bit thinner. So... Not that big of an issue if you think about it...

[SirCowdog]

I do see your point here, and I agree it's a bit off. They're obviously trying something here. Maybe their intention is to make this gear last for a bit and be reliable even for 8.3 ? I don't know.

The problem is that this will be obsolete in a few months though. And, people who "tryhard" ARE gonna get better gear than this one in the end. The margin will simply be a bit thinner. So... Not that big of an issue if you think about it...

Making it obsolete by releasing new no-effort handouts is part of the problem, to be sure. It's equal parts entitled players and flawed system that feeds that entitlement. Maybe that's just what WoW is now, but I think it's also leading WoW into being a more shallow and meaningless game that players will just abandon in favor of the next shiny thing to pop up.

You say it's not that big of an issue, but in the long-term, big picture, it really is. What do you think causes these content droughts? Why do you think players constantly complain that there's nothing to do?

[Big Thanks]

Making it obsolete by releasing new no-effort handouts is part of the problem, to be sure. It's equal parts entitled players and flawed system that feeds that entitlement. Maybe that's just what WoW is now, but I think it's also leading WoW into being a more shallow and meaningless game that players will just abandon in favor of the next shiny thing to pop up.

You say it's not that big of an issue, but in the long-term, big picture, it really is. What do you think causes these content droughts? Why do you think players constantly complain that there's nothing to do?

How about the endless epic weapons and armors that are Best in Slot you can buy of the Auction House in Vanilla WoW.

Lets say, for example Arcanite Reaper is on the auction house for 600 gold.
How do you think a player will get that money to buy the weapon?
Farming aka killing boars in durotar for several hours (like you put it)

How is this situation different?

Farming is effort. Hours put in the game farming is effort.

[jiih]

10/10 troll because of 30pages

[styil]

My opinion only makes sence for current WoW.

First you say this when someone tries to make an argument using vanilla wow as an example. Then you say this:

How about the endless epic weapons and armors that are Best in Slot you can buy of the Auction House in Vanilla WoW.

Lets say, for example Arcanite Reaper is on the auction house for 600 gold.
How do you think a player will get that money to buy the weapon?
Farming aka killing boars in durotar for several hours (like you put it)

How is this situation different?

Farming is effort. Hours put in the game farming is effort.

What are you trying to argue? Your argument is all over the place.

[SirCowdog]

How about the endless epic weapons and armors that are Best in Slot you can buy of the Auction House in Vanilla WoW.

Lets say, for example Arcanite Reaper is on the auction house for 600 gold.
How do you think a player will get that money to buy the weapon?
Farming aka killing boars in durotar for several hours (like you put it)

How is this situation different?

Farming is effort. Hours put in the game farming is effort.

Sigh....

Citing a different version of the same flaw isn't a valid justification.

[Big Thanks]

Sigh....

Citing a different version of the same flaw isn't a valid justification.

Why are you avoiding the question?

Robe of the Archmage (made by tailoring) is Best in Slot up until AQ40 and its bought with gold.

How did the person farm that gold?

Killing boars in durotar for several hours a day

There. Whats your argument?

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First you say this when someone tries to make an argument using vanilla wow as an example. Then you say this:



What are you trying to argue? Your argument is all over the place.

Im trying to put in peoples heads for good that HOURS being put into farming equate to effort towards aquiring a reward.
A decent reward, depending on how hardcore was the farm.

[Laqweeta]

Benthic should’ve been 410.

You want good gear? Do the heroic raids and M+15’s. Not enough skill? Go to Skyrim.

[SirCowdog]

Why are you avoiding the question?

Robe of the Archmage (made by tailoring) is Best in Slot up until AQ40 and its bought with gold.

How did the person farm that gold?

Killing boars in durotar for several hours a day

There. Whats your argument?

First off, you're citing examples from vanilla, which had so many design flaws and inconsistencies that it's already questionable as support for your point of view. Second, it was from a time when many of us, both players and developers, just didn't know any better.

But today? We know better. Gaming has come a LONG way since then. Go read the articles about attempts to add EZ-mode to dark souls or Sekiro, and how doing so would completely undermine the satisfaction and meaning of overcoming the challenge the game represents.

Your entire point of view is based on doing the lowest level work and expecting the highest level rewards. It is FUNDAMENTALLY flawed. I've given you several examples of how and why, and what the effects of catering to your mentality creates.

At this point you just don't want to admit the flaws in your stance and are repeating yourself. I shouldn't be surprised that someone who never wants to challenge themselves would also never be able to recognize their own bad logic. I hope you get EVERYTHING you deserve. Just don't come crying when the game is so shitty and boring that even you get sick of it.

[Perkunas]

10/10 troll because of 30pages

Yeah, this dude screams Poe at this point, but knowing the retail community it's probably not the case and he's 100% dead serious. Blizzard did this to themselves.

[Big Thanks]

First off, you're citing examples from vanilla, which had so many design flaws and inconsistencies that it's already questionable as support for your point of view. Second, it was from a time when many of us, both players and developers, just didn't know any better.

But today? We know better. Gaming has come a LONG way since then. Go read the articles about attempts to add EZ-mode to dark souls or Sekiro, and how doing so would completely undermine the satisfaction and meaning of overcoming the challenge the game represents.

Your entire point of view is based on doing the lowest level work and expecting the highest level rewards. It is FUNDAMENTALLY flawed. I've given you several examples of how and why, and what the effects of catering to your mentality creates.

At this point you just don't want to admit the flaws in your stance and are repeating yourself. I shouldn't be surprised that someone who never wants to challenge themselves would also never be able to recognize their own bad logic. I hope you get EVERYTHING you deserve. Just don't come crying when the game is so shitty and boring that even you get sick of it.

This is retail WoW

I already gave you a million examples of item level 400 being rewarded in retail for low efffort.
Want me to post them again?

players with 500 rating getting ilvl 400 gear every week
Overwhelming odds
400 Emissaries
Warfront quest
random weekly
400 world boss

All of this can be obtained in retail while AFK. (less the random weekly and emissaries and pvp)

^^^^^^ This is current WoW ^^^^^^

Now...given THIS scenario. (literally anyone who has been playing the game for 2 months is full decked out in 400)
Why shouldnt the Nazjatar gear farm reward also ilvl 400? And instead be 395?
When there is enough handouts already to be fully decked in 400 gear by literally doing nothing.

[MidnyteTV]

WIthout catchup gear, people would not have a viable method of refilling their ranks.

[Lurker1]

Benthic should’ve been 410.

You want good gear? Do the heroic raids and M+15’s. Not enough skill? Go to Skyrim.

But they aren't 410 feels good man! and no i won't go to skyrim im going to WoW BFA 8.2 patch and farming my 425ilvl gear ftw!no skills required just time!

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Right, a non-answer. I checked your post history, and you have a habit of posting inflammatory jabs that don't add anything to conversations.

Thanks for wasting everyone's time.

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Because it's not a discussion about just this gear or just this patch. It's about the entire design philosophy. Benthic gear is just a symptom of a larger problem.

And i still wasn't talking to you u derp.