What I dont understand of players who want vanilla wow.

[Rixxis]

The current game trades things like mana management, threat management, and extremely selective cooldown usage for more complex rotations. It's not hard to understand, just play both games and you'll see the difference. Your buttons you press are fewer and farther in between but the considerations and consequences of each button press are more important in the old game. It's a different type of complexity and some people liked that every class doesn't have similar level of utility.

[anon5123]

1. Gameplay - So the most common complaint about BFA besides its game-systems is gameplay for all classes.

Retail classes are pruned and homogenized, nobody is special anymore and everyone can do everything and everyone is equal.

Vanilla classes are full of flavor and uniqueness, a bit of "rock paper scissors" to their design, and every class has its own niche.

Adding more buttons to a rotation doesn't make it more interesting. Especially when every caster is the same just with different colors.

[B]2. Time investment. What does the 2019 gamer do?

I'm not a "2019 gamer". I don't need instant gratification.

Will people accept everything being much, much slower? Is it more about the journey?

You do realize Classic is being made for people who are already fans of vanilla and have played it on pservers, yes?

Yes, vanilla is about the journey. It's about the experiences you have and friends you make along the way, rather than just rushing to max level as fast as humanly possible like you do in retail.

3. YOU ALREADY KNOW EVERYTHING THAT WILL HAPPEN! Right now I will bet my ass some guy is already making new addons just for vanilla wow, people making guides on youtube, and icy veins will tell you the best classes and specs.

There is no exploration, its Azeroth Auto pilot x 100. Old content dosent have any surprises.

So do you never listen to a song twice? I mean, you already know how the song goes, what's the point of listening to it again?
You already ate that food before, you know what it tastes like, the experience is not going to be different, why eat it again?
You've been to this place before, you already know what it looks like, what's the point of going there again?

That's what you sound like.

PS lvling was never hard in vanilla

Mobs are literally like 4x stronger compared to you, than they are in retail.

4. It still cost a sub, with no updates

....okay?

Thanks. Again I dont understand these blind vanilla followers.

Oh, so anyone who enjoys a thing you don't is a "blind follower".

Kindly fuck yourself.

[Specialka]

Retail classes are pruned and homogenized, nobody is special anymore and everyone can do everything and everyone is equal.

Vanilla classes are full of flavor and uniqueness, a bit of "rock paper scissors" to their design, and every class has its own niche.

Adding more buttons to a rotation doesn't make it more interesting. Especially when every caster is the same just with different colors.


I'm not a "2019 gamer". I don't need instant gratification.


You do realize Classic is being made for people who are already fans of vanilla and have played it on pservers, yes?

Yes, vanilla is about the journey. It's about the experiences you have and friends you make along the way, rather than just rushing to max level as fast as humanly possible like you do in retail.



So do you never listen to a song twice? I mean, you already know how the song goes, what's the point of listening to it again?
You already ate that food before, you know what it tastes like, the experience is not going to be different, why eat it again?
You've been to this place before, you already know what it looks like, what's the point of going there again?

That's what you sound like.



Mobs are literally like 4x stronger compared to you, than they are in retail.




....okay?



Oh, so anyone who enjoys a thing you don't is a "blind follower".

Kindly fuck yourself.

True that every casters play the same in bfa? Like srlsy? While all a mage had to do was spam one spell in vanilla.

[anon5123]

True that every casters play the same in bfa? Like srlsy? While all a mage had to do was spam one spell in vanilla.

The only people who claim "mage spams 1 spell" are people who never actually played vanilla and just watched youtube videos about it.

Also, why are you here if you hate vanilla so much? You BFA kiddies are so sensitive.

[Specialka]

The only people who claim "mage spams 1 spell" are people who never actually played vanilla and just watched youtube videos about it.

Also, why are you here if you hate vanilla so much? You BFA kiddies are so sensitive.

Which spells did you use in MC as mage? Just tell me

And I just do not like ppl shitting on BFA for free and with flawed arguments.

[potis]

The only people who claim "mage spams 1 spell" are people who never actually played vanilla and just watched youtube videos about it.

Also, why are you here if you hate vanilla so much? You BFA kiddies are so sensitive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzuE-vOF9aQ

Tell me more about actually geared mages in Vanilla, this was our first kill early on somewhere in the summer of 2006, before the whole Ignite rolling started becoming popular the last 3 months of Vanilla.

I am somewhere inside the melee,stance dancing for Improved Thunder Clap.

And dont even start with your PvP delusions.

PoM-->Pyro-->hope for Crit-->Improve Counterspell the healer to Fireblast if it crits to finish the last 10%-->It didnt crit-->Get destroyed, repeat in 3 minutes.

You people that barely did anything back then, if you were even there and not some private server shenanigans and claim to know what Vanilla was like, really need to stop.

[Darkguyver2020]

So you'e never once in your life gone back to a game to play it again? If you have I don't understand why have this thread, if you haven't, well I actually find that a shame you haven't got your own little gem.

Big difference is the massive time commitment required to make actual progress in Vanilla.
I could boot up Super Mario Bros and finish it in half an hour. Or Ocarina of Time in about 5 hours. (Randomizers are hella fun).

But Vanilla will require at least 200-300 hours just to get to level 60 on one character. Let alone the insane amount of time doing attunements and grinding gold/mats if you want to raid. Ain't nobody got time for that shit!

It doesn't matter though because a lot of these Classic fanatics just want it to feel like it's 2004 again. But try as they might, Classic will never recapture that feeling they had first playing the game. About time they woke up and smell the roses.

[Octoberfest99]

Which spells did you use in MC as mage? Just tell me

And I just do not like ppl shitting on BFA for free and with flawed arguments.

Clearly in a fire themed raid zone you would be casting frostbolt, but your example misses the point. MC is only one raid and raiding was a small part of where most Vanilla players spent their time. While questing, running dungeons, raiding, and doing PVP i used fireball, pyroblast, fire blast, frost bolt, blizzard, flamestrike, arcane missiles, and polymorph regularly. My spell usage was always situational. People forgot how important CC was in Vanilla. Good mages maintained DPS and CC, while avoiding damage. Was that super hard? No, but it was not as simple as spam frost bolt while watching a movie on your second screen.

[Apexis]

They want the community that vanilla wow had.

They may want the community they had in Vanilla, but that community is long gone and many of those people will never be returning. At best they will be lucky if many of the current players able and capable of withstanding the much slower grind overall, the slowness is not just in the leveling process, the slowness is throughout the entire content.

Many of these people that are craving a sense of community literally helped in trashing the one they had with their own egos and elitism ways. Course they want to blame Blizzard and their quality of life inclusion into the game, like LFD, LFR, etc. If one feature out of all finally put the death nail in this game is when Blizzard made everything cross-realm. Zero server or guild identity to speak of, no accountability or policing of all the jerks that literally plagued every single realm and were usually reduced to a point of needed to move on to another realm due to their own reputations and game play. Blizzard may have had a had in helping along the way, but in reality it was the community as a whole that let the community faulter, not Blizzard. I saw the writing on this wall shortly after the start of Wrath begun and it only has got worse with every single passing year since.

The biggest problem with this game today is the total lack of community that brought me to this game so many years ago. From time to time I find guilds that are still given sense of actual community and actually enjoy playing with one another, no matter the level of the person skills and ability to play a class or the game, but they are very rare, very rare indeed. The bulk of the guilds I have been in since the end of Wrath have literally folded before they really ever began. A few have managed to stand the test of time in this game, but even many of those guilds are not run by the same people that first started them.

At the core of this game very little has actually changed as much as the community itself. Yes, we have all the mechanics, class changes, but I am really talking about the soul of this game when it comes to the community that I joined in mid 2008. That core community only exist in very small pockets now, not server or realm wide. I remember on the various realms I played on when I first started playing the game. My friends list was a as big as it could be with all the various people from many guilds that consider themselves brother and sister guilds to at least a dozen or more guilds and it was happening with both the Horde and Alliance. Many of us literally played both sides and literally wpvp against our own home guilds. Game play back then was nothing like it is today and it will never be that way again, no matter how many of the older players of that time come back to Classic for another go. That community when south just like the game itself has done over the course of time. One could actually say and I have that Blizzard in many ways was forced into a box that they helped make with the help largely by the community of WoW itself.

So these people longing for something they literally helped made happen and take place want that back now. Problem for them, they should have minded the store so long ago if they truly miss that sense of community as a whole. As the saying goes "One can never ever really go home again". Once one leaves, every single time one come back something always changes and in most cases, it is the person themselves that changed the most over time.

[Octoberfest99]

Big difference is the massive time commitment required to make actual progress in Vanilla.

But Vanilla will require at least 200-300 hours just to get to level 60 on one character. Let alone the insane amount of time doing attunements and grinding gold/mats if you want to raid. Ain't nobody got time for that shit!

How many hours do people spend in a game like Red Dead Redemption 2? I bet there are tons of people who have spent hundreds of hours exploring the game world. I could say the same with Skyrim and Fallout 4. There are dedicated modding communities that create ways to extend the game. Why? People people love the experience of getting deeply immersed in the game world. The main quest line is just one of many ways to enjoy the game. Lots of people have the time to put 200-300 hours into a game. They just don't try to put them all in a month. They are happy spacing the time out over 6 months to a year or more. What Classic detractors don't understand is most folks who want Classic, don't care about loot, prestige, or beating the game. They're playing for the role play experience, the community, and to unwind while immersing themselves in a fantasy. That may not be your cup of tea, but it is theirs.

[Charge me Doctor]

Well, you could play "vanilla" D2 if you wanted to. You just leave LoD out. Overall if you look at D2 and then the expansion it is still pretty much the same game though. Anyway the statement of it being an old game from 2000 (LoD 2001 I think) still stands and people still enjoy Diablo 2.

So if someone says Classic doesn't have anything to offer to potential players I'd say that's ignorant. Classic and BFA each will have their audience. The question is always how big said audiences are. And if Classic is actually dead within 6 months well then I'd even admit that it may have been a mistake. But we have to consider that due to the release schedule for the various content it will take at least 2 years before we really may see it go down heavily. And hey , that would be two years with stable subscribers on a 15 year old game. I'd think that would be considered a success...

I totally agree with bold part. I disagree with people who are dishonest about what BfA and Classic is. Saying things like classic was incredibly hard and there was plenty things to do compared to bfa - that's dishonest, bfa provides way more engaging activities than classic, the only thing that's different is that it provides... different kinds of engagement (pet battles, transmog, achievements, pvp, endless dungeons, etc). Classic on the other hand have (obviously) well paced leveling experience and not that much to do at max level. Most people i've played with back in vanilla simply leveled their dudes to 60 and started leveling alts, making a lvl 19 rogue in full blues and crusader enchants to pwn newbs at WSG, or just leveling through a different route with a different class. In classic your game begins at level 1 and continues to level 60, in BfA your game begins... at level 110.

I'd say managing to restore the game and just put it as a some sort of a museum is already a success honestly

[dzd]

And dont even start with your PvP delusions.

PoM-->Pyro-->hope for Crit-->Improve Counterspell the healer to Fireblast if it crits to finish the last 10%-->It didnt crit-->Get destroyed, repeat in 3 minutes.

Talk about PvP delusions. PoM/Pyro was only used to make videos.

[potis]

Talk about PvP delusions. PoM/Pyro was only used to make videos.

I am not talking scrub PvP of 60s in "I can barely finish a dungeon" gear level.

Either you 1 shotted someone and died, or you died, thats how PvP worked in the non-scrub environments for Mages.

[Raven]

They want the long grind and the reward at the end of the grind even if they know the end result.

They want the community that vanilla wow had.

Maybe some do want the very simple class design and focus on threat management and mana management etc.

Just to be curius but what is the great reward waiting at the end ? its a game, you play to have fun when your doing it maybe meet some new friends, but in the end there is no reward waiting for you.

[sourlol]

Dps are the only specs that could arguably said to be better on retail than 1.12. And even still, retail is a shell of the game that existed (in terms of combat rotations) from Wrath - MoP.

Tanking and healing are miles better on 1.12 than live. Both require thought and an element of intelligence that’s missing from modern tanking where threat is never an issue, or where you as a healer spend every gcd casting shit and never go oom.

I’d say heroic and mythic raiding on live are more engaging than the actual bosses of classic. However, the holistic raiding package the one where you have to manage your personnel week in week out, slowly gear your raid, need to farm resistances, need consumables for different things, etc. is much better.

Or we can simply boil it down to blizzards four biggest misplays when it comes to the nuts and bolts of combat rotations and encounter design.

Removal of dot snapshotting
Removal of hit
Removal of healer gameplay based around mana management
Removal of tank gameplay based around threat management

This doesn’t even touch on the superior leveling experience and actual social interactions one is nearly forced into having by way of limited spawns and a dangerous world.

[Blandalf]

Anyone who doesn't understand why Classic is special should just watch Preach's video.



Sums it up perfectly.

[potis]

Just to be curius but what is the great reward waiting at the end ? its a game, you play to have fun when your doing it maybe meet some new friends, but in the end there is no reward waiting for you.

He means the delusion you actually did something without having to actually do anything worthwhile.

You know, those imaginary 4 hour long dungeons where everyone shares their personal life story and everyone is happy they are wiping to:

Mechanic 1:Auto Attack.

Mechanic 2:<Insert 3 seconds long cast thats either Frost Bolt/Fireball/Shadow Bolt"

That any competent human being with basic coordination of fingers/eyes can finish in 20 minutes.

Or the "Run around in 5 areas for 7 hours to get some worthless item" , or do the dungeon that drops something better or similar and get it for everyone in those 7 hours, but hey!

Its the same logic of "IF I IGNORE THERE ARE HARDER CONTENT THERE BUT LOOK THE SAME, THEN I DONT HAVE TO SUCK AT THE GAME".

[Charge me Doctor]

What I see is that you're clearly missing the point and focusing on a minor detail. The +1 level is just an image. I know that affixes offer challenging fights but no matter how much challenge you put in front of the players, it will still turn away some of them who are looking for a realistic and immersive RPG experience, simply because there is not a single new story, exploration or discovery element to it. I do my weekly M+ for the chest, yes it is challeging but I absolutely hate every single moment of it because I've been in each dungeon more than a hundred times by now. Put any affixes you want, it will still be immersion breaking and make me feel like I'm playing a dungeon crawler and not an RPG.

You have every right to like that but please understand that some people are looking for something different, something that use to be present in past MMORPGs, and hope to experience that again instead of different difficulties of the same dungeon.

I'm not talking about challenge, i'm saying that different affixes make dungeons different. I understand that you want a new story involved with a dungeon, but for that to happen they need to release a new expansion. It's just disingenuous to say that all dungeons are "exact same dungeon with no additional area, story content, fights, just +1 level to all mobs", because it's a different encounter, which requires a different approach and provides you with different fights. If all you want out of WoW dungeon is a story and an area you can just watch a nobbels lore videos about them or something and call it a day.
Expecting that to be any different in classic is also bad, because it won't. You won't just do a dungeon once to see it's story, you'll have to spam the shit out of the same dungeons over and over, which will get progressively easier with more gear acquired - it won't be any different in this regard. It'll be literally "exact same dungeon with no additional area, story content, fights, just +1 level to all mobs", minus "+1 level to all mobs"

[dzd]

Either you 1 shotted someone and died, or you died, thats how PvP worked in the non-scrub environments for Mages.

You got it all wrong. This is how it works in scrub environment, where people only stack SP. One of the reasons why people knew PoM/Pyro is trash is that you auto-lose to deep frost.

[Darkguyver2020]

How many hours do people spend in a game like Red Dead Redemption 2? I bet there are tons of people who have spent hundreds of hours exploring the game world. I could say the same with Skyrim and Fallout 4. There are dedicated modding communities that create ways to extend the game. Why? People people love the experience of getting deeply immersed in the game world. The main quest line is just one of many ways to enjoy the game. Lots of people have the time to put 200-300 hours into a game. They just don't try to put them all in a month. They are happy spacing the time out over 6 months to a year or more. What Classic detractors don't understand is most folks who want Classic, don't care about loot, prestige, or beating the game. They're playing for the role play experience, the community, and to unwind while immersing themselves in a fantasy. That may not be your cup of tea, but it is theirs.

You're comparing apples to oranges here. Red Dead Redemption 2 was released last year and, like you said, Skyrim has a dedicated modding community.

Classic is neither of those things. It's a horribly dated version of the game and modding (aside from UI addons) is strictly forbidden.
All you have is a relic that will never change, will never be updated. Stuck in an indefinite stasis. And as "immersive" as the game was back then. Try as you might, you will never recapture the feelings you had when you first played it back in 2004. Anyone who thinks they can is living in a bubble. (Unless you give yourself a lobotomy beforehand).

If people want to waste the same amount of time on a game they've already played before, fine by me. But I for one have had my fill. WotLK was my favorite expansion and even I wouldn't go back if Wrath servers were eventually released.