9.0's Dynamic Talent

[vertigo12]

Talent System Overhaul- The Birth of Talent Bracket & Talent sub-specialization: Goodbye Talent rows!

Talent System History:

From official website:https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/3773320
• Vanila, TB,WotLK: The Talent Tree Era and Cataclysm's Consolidated Talent Tree

Major Highlights:
Patch 2.0.1 Before the Storm: New Talents and 41 Talent points.

Patch 3.0.2 Echoes of Doom: New Talents ans 51 Talent points.

Spoiler: 

Patch 3.1: Secrets of Ulduar: Dual Talent Specialization

Spoiler: 

Patch 4.0.1: The Maelstrom
Debut of Specialization and Mastery

Spoiler: 

Patch 5.0.4: Mist of Pandaria: Talent Rows, 4th Druid Spec-Guardian, Talent Specialization Improvement

Spoiler: 

Warlords of Draenor : The Iron Tide - Perks

Spoiler: 

- Legion: Legion PVP talent unlocking, Artifact Traits, Crucible
- BFA: Azerite Traits

• Mist of Pandaria:The Rise of Talent Rows and Spec
• Legion: Honor Talents, Azerite Weapon and Traits
▪️Battle For Azeroth: War Mode Talents

Rise of Azshara and PVP Azerite Essence:


Legion's Honor Talent


Legion's Artifact Weapon and Traits:
The major feature which propels the gameplay and storyline during the said expansion.

Overview:

◾Some previous talents and/or traits will become core skills and abilities unlockable at certain level. There will be an extensive deliberation and overhaul of abilities: spell ranks will be removed and baked into talent modifiers, some talents will be consolidated with other talent effect and will have a fitting and meaningful talent name.

◾Previous row of talents aren't rigidly locked in their designated rows but now can be randomly unlocked within Talent Brackets. See section below for further explanation
◾Allows a player the liberty to swap talents into certain talent rows thus greatly altering gameplay with various passive+active buffs. i.e. cooldown reset, duration+, cd reduction, damage reduction, spell charges, +range/aoe, +to primary or secondary stats, primary stats giving % of secondary stats,etc.


Specialization Page:

◾How you see and choose a specialization would remain the same. Selecting from the 3 specs operates as usual.
◾Players may enjoy playing one of the three specs and utilize the tri-spec system.
◾ Players still can swap from different talent specs as usual.

The New Talent Rows: Introducing the New Talent Tiers

◾ The current "Talent Row System" will be replaced and from now on will be called as "Talent Tiers".
◾ Basically a talent tier allows you to select one of the available talents from the talent list unlocked per talent bracket.

◾War Mode Talent UI will now display on the left hand side of the talent panel but from now on, will be the main UI.
◾There will be a single vertical column of 9 circles depicting each and every talent tier.

Spoiler: 

For illustration purposes, imagine the circles available will be 9 instead of 4. War mode toggle at the bottom will be removed and can be toggled on your character frame instead.

All the talent rings are locked when you start a new character, however, you may view the talent page to discover all talents for your chosen spec although they will be grayed out. Your first talent tier or ring will unlock at level 15.

◾Clicking on one of the circle will display all available talents from the dropdown list, unavailable talents will be grayed out. You now choose each and every talent per tier similar to how you choose PVP talents in BfA.

◾At every 15 levels you may choose a talent to lock-in and benefit from it's effect:
Tier I: Tier L15
Tier II: L30
Tier III: L45
==========
Tier IV: L60
Tier V: L75
Tier VI: L90
==========
Tier VII: L100
(new talent tier introduced)
Tier VIII: L105
Tier IX: L120
==(in the future)==
Tier X: L135
Tier XI: L150
Tier XII: L165

The Talent Tiers: Custom Build Your Talents

◾A talent row's column, now called talent tiers, unlocks every 5 levels starting from left to right. First row unlocks talent column at L5,10,15; second at L20,25,30; so on.


◾ These talent displayed in three columns are the talent's respective trait modifiers. The talent modifier table will be populated as you reach max level.

◾ Each talent can be specialized and selected,with the description of each displayed along three columns. You may choose one. By selecting a talent column of that chosen talent, it is then modified respectively.This is a specialization of talents in the flesh.

◾ each column modifies a spell/ability or talent's spell mechanics or spell property (i.e. mana cost, cooldown, damage, range/aoe,etc.) and can greatly modify how it behaves.

Talent Bracket: Your Row Agnostic Talent Pool

Spoiler: 

◾ Talent categories, a.k.a. curre t system's talent row, do not unlock at their respective talent rows rather, unlocks randomly on a talent tier bracket.

Tier I & II - Talent Bracket I
Tier II, III & IV - Talent Bracket II
Tier IV,V,VI- Talent Bracket III
Tier VI,VII - Talent Bracket IV
Tier VIII & IX - Talent Bracket V

I.e. mobility/escape talent can be first encountered and thus unlocked at Talent Bracket I or II - tier II,III or IV/ L30,L45 or L60. Resource management at 15,30,45,60,75 depending on which talent category unlocks first. As you level up all talent categories and talent tiers will unlock.

◾The system allows talent to behave somewhat like skills in such a way that each talent now scales in value or effect depending on what talent tier or rank you personally opt to use should you consider to lock-in or use them during your game.

◾TLR - Think about how WoD spec perks unlock but on a wider level range and several "brackets".

Look and Feel: New Talent System's UI

Spoiler: 

◾ The talent panel now has a new UI. Each spec now also get their own version of specialization crest similar to racial sigil and or class sigil.


◾ Talent-tree background now once again returns as a backdrop for each and every spec! This will be the default background per spec of talent and can be modified. See Bonus feature for details. The area where the War Mode images is will be replaced by the Spec sigil.

- Spec sigil are inspired by the base aesthetics of their Legion Artifact weapon amd modifies the look of the class sigil. I.E. Eye of Dalaran sigil for mage with Felomelorn inspired motif/adornment. Guardian Druid with Claw of Ursoc, Shadow Priest with Xal'atath, BotBE,etc. So yes, every spec will get their new Spec sigil!

Example: Maw of the Damned's axehead as Blood DK's spec sigil.
Apocalype Herald of Pestilence's Handguard for Unholy DK

◾The three column interface of present Talent system is now displayed at the right listing the three different talent traits. You can choose one from the three. As the game progress new talent trait will be added and unlocked. The list will be populated as more cool and unique traits will be added.

RELEARNING TALENTS:

Spoiler: 

◾You may choose to repick or reshuffle your talents on any rested areas or while in dungeons,pvp, or combat using tomes of unlearning/clarity of mind. Same as usual.

◾ You may move each talent to succeeding tier thereby gaining the bonus effect from that tier i.e. I,II,III,IV,V,VI,etc. Simply reselecting the same talent on any ring will accordingly decrease or increase its rank and adjust the tier choice's stat simultaneously.

- Talent Ranks: You don't spend talent points or each talent requires to fill a talent exp bar to level up a talent but rather, simply moving a talent across different tier changes the property of a talent i.e. Tier IX talent would be way better than Tier I.

- Each talent or spells gains greater state, empowered state or improved state and talents on level 100 and above grants ultimate state.

I.e. ultimate radiance, greater heal, empowered death grip, etc.
- each ability and spell augmentation are group with similar mechanics or spell category. I.e. death grip with gorefiends grasp, a new talent that grabs 2 opponent instead of one, etc.

- This is a hybrid talent combining all talent system mechanics from WotLK upto WoDs and the mechanics of Artifact Trait + Crucible from Legion, Legendaries and Azerite Traits from BfA.

-PvP talents will be gone but will be consolidated into existing talents or in a new talent. Some will be indicated as PvP trait.

Example for Shadow Priest:
Surrender to Madness
- Surrender to Madness α (column 1) increased duration
L90 Lasts 45 second.
L100 Lasts 60 seconds.
L105 Lasts 90 seconds.
L120 Lasts 120 seconds.

β(column 2) reduced penalty
L90 Stops generating insantity for 15 seconds, drops health to 10%of max HP
L100 Stops generating insanity for 13 seconds, drops health to 15% of max HP
L105 Stops generating insanity for 11 seconds, drops health to 20% max HP
L120 Stops generating insanity for 9 seconds. Drops health to 25% max Hp

(column 3) balanced type γ
Bonus insanity + cooldown reduction
Tier VI/ L90 0% CDR +100% insanity (same as BfA 8.x version)
Tier VII/L100 10% CDR, +125% insanity
Tier VIII/L105 15% CDR, +150% insanity
Tier IX /L120 20% CDR, +200% insanity
Surrender to Madness Tier VIII and IX
When Surrender to Madness Ends, your Mind Spells deals x% times critical damage. Choosing Surrender to Madness at either tier VIII to IX grants bonus effect.


This Talent System works hand in hand with Titanforging ( Azerite infusion on your gears and acts as item progression)



Talent Overview, Summary and Synopsis:

◾The dynamic talent system is the combination of different elements of each talent systems featured from across the World of Warcraft

- Vanila to WotlK: Talent Ranks
- MoP: Talent Table - Rows and Columns
- WoDs: Perks
-Legion: Legion's PvP Talent unlocking scheme
-BfA:War Mode's choice implementation.
◾Talents are now tier agnostic. They aren't bound to a specific talent row and can be learned or chosen on a whim with various set of values and bonuses for that tier.

Talents, Set bonus and Item inherent traits have always been interoperable. Some items modifies a spell behavior or mechanics. Others augment an existing ability by increasing or decreasing its value or allows you to gain a new active ability.

vs.

- Each and every talents are patch build dependent. The description and mechanics varies according to current game version and it dictates whether it is a go to choice or not.




- WoW:Legion so far has the most game version which moves certain talent across different talent tier and placing them back to their original position, vice versa. You now have the liberty to place where your chosen talent would be, which grants scaling bonuses depending on which tier it is placed.

- PVP Talents can be earned every 25 levels thus: 25 =1, 50=2,75=3,100=4,125=5 PVP talents unlocked.
-At level 60 and 120, players can use 1 PVP talent in PVE settings or 2 at L120 and can benefit from talent tier bonus or columns. Those talent will take the slot of the regular talents and will be displayed in the middle row.

I.e. pure shadow+greater fade into Intangibility.
- casting fade or dispersion grants scaling movespeed depending on tier.
Increase the number of prevented hits while effect of fade or dispersion is active.
- Removed artifact traits not implemented in BfA, Azerite traits, some PVP traits will be baked into the new/reformed talent amd its system. i.e. pure shadows into intangibility and greater fade.
- Frees up used spell or talent name to incorporate old or new spell mechanics.

Iteration/ Implementation:

Spoiler: 

They may slowly release the system every patch cycle or if they would decide to drop everything at once.

There are two ways of implementing this:
◾ Have a per patch cycle iteration: 9.0 pre-patch includes introduction of subtalents or column effect and the rehaul of talents along with pre-9.0 system changes.

◾Phase 1- 3.1: All talents within tier I and II bracket will be unlockable and access the Ultimate Talent system.
Phase two talents across all classes in tier III,IV will be next.
Phase 3 will be V,VI and the ultimate talent for final bracket.
This way the next expac will have something to look forward to.

Allows the interaction of class trainers once again to rekindle the RPG aspect of the game. Some talent unlocks via class or spec quests.

- implement everything at once and slowly unlock the talent options.

But for balance,marketing, and longevity against content drought, I suggest the first.

The Rise of Class Sub-Spec!
Technomancers, Audiomancers,Chronomancers, Shadow Shaman, Sha aligned Shadow Priest, Lunatic Shadow Priest, etc.
Others:
Let's use Shadow priest as prime example. They may play as follower of Y'Shaarj and use Sha at his/her disposal, A servant of N'Zoth, Yogg Saron or a faithful of Xal'atath. Or a Priest/ess of the Moon or someone who are void touched.

Technical Aspects and Other Game Feature Interaction *NEW SECTION*

Rationale, Pros and Cons *NEW SECTION*

Spoiler: 

I have several goals as to why I created and suggested this kind of new talent system based on the current trend of WoW and how I envision how it would look like.

Using my experience with the old DoTA1 community of the Warcraft III era as a remake suggestor and contributor, I did my best to come up with interesting and fun playstyle using old Talent names in new mechanics.

◾ Encourages a wide variety of playstyle for each and every spec. Each spec can be played in several ways or build.
◾ Several mythic+ and/raid streaming/videos featuring different ways to clear the content using different talent build thus giving us insight of its performance.

◾A commpetitive roster for a class and its community,say top 10,25,50 and the rest of the population of all classes will enlist different kind of talent builds. There could be slight variation or entirely different among two or more class of the same spec.

◾ WoW could push new Meta at several timeframes perhaps even upto 4 meta in a month. That would be 1 meta per week as class highlight.This would be great for marketing strategy as they may have several "How to class" and high liting several build and class guides through official WoW website and YTC. They may so release their own official page talent roster and guide - imagine new meta being created or even copied for Warfronts, BGs, Arena, Island Expedition, Mythic Dungeon and Raiding.

◾ Encourages replayability and variety. Playing your spec and class wouldn't be dull and boring as you can give your raid run a a second try with a different build.

◾ Allows a player to have his signature "build" which would create identity apart from just his character name. His talent build and choice will greatly cement who he is as a player.

◾ Players can benefit from multispec option provided by game. Dual and Trispec and would greatly push the use of the in-game talent planner and an improved version of it.

◾Two different players having the same class and same spec being included in a raid progression will most likely not play a like and would rely on a cross-spec synergy. One Shadow priest will purely be offensive and focus on crowd control while the other will be playing as a semihealer with Vampirism talent build.

◾No more competition with the same class and spec for a raid spot and since raid set and tier tokens have been remove, a causing issue to take only one of one class per raid run, a raid could have atleast 3 to 4 priests playing atleast 2 of the specs but play differently. Good bye to restrictive gameplay.

◾It is possible to clear a raid with a raid composition of just 3 classes say Paladin,Priests and another one.[/QUOTE]

and

Q&A and Impressions

Spoiler: 

so simmilar to legion pvp talents?

Yes, instead of farming for honor points experience and character level unlocks it as usual.This is how it is implemented for talent tier columns, or talent modifiers unlocked every 5 levels.

5 Instead of 3...
@Unholyground says:

how about they make 5 talents in every row instead of 3 so we have more choice and flavor.

That would be too much! 3 columns would be enough. They just need to allow more talent synergy in play and each talent inherently modifies or augment base spell or ability.

On Bad Formatting and Presentation
@pppbroom, @Azalar , @huth, @Ajko, @arkanon says:

I didn't understand, bad formatting, boring.

After reading this I don't think I can say for sure I've understood the point D:

horrible explaining. some stuff i did not understood:

Honestly, i think its time to go back to the drawing-board. You might have some good ideas hidden away in the shambles that is the OP, but they are buried deep in the mess.

Still in the process of formatting so it's under construction. You may try to read it several times before you may conpletely comprehend the entirety of the new system. Images will be included soon.

I'm consciously aware that the idea is not presented at the best way possible. Please do understand as I have to painstakingly do everything manually,editing and all, paraphrasing and all the needed effort. But like Deckard Cain always say, "stay a while and listen". But I do hope bad formatting doesn't affect the entire concept.

On Comparing Vanilla to WotLK expanded Talent Tree

@Costa says:

Balance is never gonna be perfect, i would take the massive trees of Vanilla over a talent tree design we have now just because you can make your own spec you enjoy more.

@Eazy says:

Exactly.

The only reason why old talent trees were better, it's because your character was getting slightly better each level up.

One of the major features of talent system from Vanilla to WotLK is the point spending system which allows you to dump points and benefit certain effect with specific values under each tier.

This is similar to artifact trait although implemented in item and using artifact power.

Other Talent System from Other Games in Comparison

@Soon-TM says:

In short, OP is proposing something akin to Torchlight II's talent system, if I understood correctly. Not a bad thing, and it could give an extra layer or two of RPG paint to the game.

Haven't played Torchlight yet but I'll check it out since you mentioned it.

Update: I have checked the talent system of Torchlight just now and in a way, yes.

Each talent column modifies a specific property of a talent and as you move it higher to it's tier, the value scales accordingly to either decrease or increase a value in a beneficial way.

A Refreshed Idea @Toxuvox says:

I know some folks are against the idea, but a rejig of the talent system combined with a level squish may be the best way to got...That way they don't need to add extra talent tiers, and can concentrate on improving the talents on offer, making them more meaningful and impacting.

With reguards to the overhaul of talents, this would be just a reiteration of the current system. So far it has been successful but it just need to get more interesting. Probably by level 160+ a level squish could be ideal but at 120 to 130 or probably 125, everything is still manageable. When I designed this talent system, I did consider the future about 4-5 years in advance.

Everything at Once
@lolvik says:

This reads like TimeCube.

@huth says:

Not at all what lolvik was talking about. TimeCube has no connection to WoW. Or to anything as far as anybody can tell.

Talents become multifaceted and works in theme with a Classic release Talent or a time travel+black empire expac.

[vertigo12]

==UPDATE==
I will dedicate this post for a quick link to various specs and their dynamic talent.

[Gatto]

Nope.

The less the customization, the better for the balance.

We need more and different challenges, not customization ( which is meaningless, since there will always be a better spec or class, and it will simply change the meta ).

[valky94]

Same three rowed talent
- Tier I: Tier L15
Tier II: Tier L30
Tier III: Tier L45
Tier IV: Tier L60
Tier V: Tier L75
Tier VI: L90
Tier VII: 100
Tier VIII:105
Tier IX:120

- A talent row's column unlocks every 5 levels starting from left to right. First row unlocks talent column at L5,10,15. second at L20,25,30 and so on.

so simmilar to legion pvp talents?

[Ajko]

Same three rowed talent
- Tier I: Tier L15
Tier II: Tier L30
Tier III: Tier L45
Tier IV: Tier L60
Tier V: Tier L75
Tier VI: L90
Tier VII: 100
Tier VIII:105
Tier IX:120

- A talent row's column unlocks every 5 levels starting from left to right. First row unlocks talent column at L5,10,15. second at L20,25,30 and so on.
- At every 15 levels you may choose a talent to lock-in and benefit from it's effect. The middle row becomes your chosen talent.
-current talent categories do not unlock at their current talent rows but rather unlocks randomly on a talent tier bracket.
I.e. mobility/escape talent can unlock at tier 30,45 or 60. Resource management at 15,30,45,60,75 depending on which talent category unlocks first. As you level up all talent categories and talent tiers will unlock.

- You may choose to reshuffle your talents on any rested areas or while in dungeons,pvp, or combat using tomes of unlearning.
- You may move each talent to succeeding rows and there by gaining the bonus effect from that tier i.e. I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII
- Allows a player the liberty to swap talents into certain talent rows thus greatly altering gameplay with various passive+active buffs. i.e. cooldown reset, duration+, cd reduction, damage reduction, spell charges, +range/aoe, +to primary or secondary stats, primary stats giving % of secondary stats,etc.
Previous row talents aren't locked by rows and can be randomly unlocked.
- Each talent or spells gains greater state, empowered state or improved state and talents on level 100 and above grants ultimate state.
I.e. ultimate radiance, greater heal, empowered death grip, etc.
- each ability and spell augmentation are group with similar mechanics or spell category. I.e. death grip with gorefiends grasp, a new talent that grabs 2 opponent instead of one, etc.
- This is a hybrid talent combining all talent system mechanics from WotLK upto WoDs and the mechanics of Artifact Trait + Crucible from Legion, Legendaries and Azerite Traits from BfA.

This Talent System works hand in hand with Titanforging ( Azerite infusion on your gears and acts as item progression)

horrible explaining. some stuff i did not understood:
"First row unlocks talent column at L5,10,15. second at L20,25,30 and so on. At every 15 levels you may choose a talent..." - why unlocking every 5 lvls when you can choose your first talent at lvl 15?
"current talent categories do not unlock at their current talent rows but rather unlocks randomly. You may choose to reshuffle your talents. Previous row talents aren't locked by rows and can be randomly unlocked." -randomly? reshuffling? RNG in talent system? are you out of your mind? there is already ENOUGH RNG in wow, stop this madness, really...
"gaining the bonus effect. thus greatly altering gameplay with various passive+active buffs. Each talent or spells gains greater state, empowered state or improved state and talents on level 100 and above grants ultimate state." -"hey guys, we literally failed in balancing simple, non RNG talent system, let's make a complicated, rng based one which is nearly impossible to balance at all!!". dude... wtf....

[vertigo12]

so simmilar to legion pvp talents?

Yes, instead of farming for honor points.

[Sosua]

I have no idea why someone would put in so much effort into something thats got nothing to do with the game.

[Costa]

Nope.

The less the customization, the better for the balance.

We need more and different challenges, not customization ( which is meaningless, since there will always be a better spec or class, and it will simply change the meta ).

Balance is never gonna be perfect, i would take the massive trees of Vanilla over a talent tree design we have now just because you can make your own spec you enjoy more.

[Gatto]

Balance is never gonna be perfect, i would take the massive trees of Vanilla over a talent tree design we have now just because you can make your own spec you enjoy more.

It definitely won't, but you can increase balance in many ways.

I simply tend to prefer more balance and less customization.

To be clear, the more you remove rpg elements, the better the balance.

[lolvik]

This reads like TimeCube.

[Costa]

It definitely won't, but you can increase balance in many ways.

I simply tend to prefer more balance and less customization.

To be clear, the more you remove rpg elements, the better the balance.

This is true, the less spells and external elements the easier to balance, but does that make it more fun for you if you had <10 spells total and a few talents which their will always be a "BIS" one to take over having 1-2 under performing chars and 1-2 over performing chars? I guess it is opinion and i understand yours just think that maybe that would turn the game into something completely different if it went down that road.

[justandulas]

Nope.

The less the customization, the better for the balance.

We need more and different challenges, not customization ( which is meaningless, since there will always be a better spec or class, and it will simply change the meta ).

The less customization, the less fun. Fact. That’s why classic and tbc are so beloved.

My biggest knock on the OPs system is still too little in that regard. Only one new ability at 120? Not I want a new ability every level from 110-120

Eq, a game older than wow, still adds new abilities to its classes as of just this year so I don’t understand or buy any of blizzards excuses of “its too hard”. No it isn’t, just open an ad&d manual and start rhere

- - - Updated - - -

It definitely won't, but you can increase balance in many ways.

I simply tend to prefer more balance and less customization.

To be clear, the more you remove rpg elements, the better the balance.

That’s the biggest issue with modern WoW is all the rpg elements were stripped out over the years and what’s left is like a bad parody of what an mmorpg should be. It has more in common with diablo 3 than eq and you should never be able to say that about an mmorpg, especially considering diablo 3 did all it could to strip rpg elements too

[Gatto]

This is true, the less spells and external elements the easier to balance, but does that make it more fun for you if you had <10 spells total and a few talents which their will always be a "BIS" one to take over having 1-2 under performing chars and 1-2 over performing chars? I guess it is opinion and i understand yours just think that maybe that would turn the game into something completely different if it went down that road.

Yeah, but I will be fine even with some middle ground, like:

• The possibility to chose our equipment, instead of being forced to play with some stats.
• Entirely removing the sockets/warforged mechanics, since they give random advantages to random players.
• limit the equip ilvl ( and forbid some stuff like void stones ) in some game modes, like Arenas /RBG

Talents would probably be the less problematic stuff to deal with, just because

• There will always be a BEST build for every class
• Everybody will have the same talents

But, if you think about it, since there's always a best build... then the work towards talents would be pretty much a waste of time ( unless you plan an ongoing work on them, which changes the meta every x months because of modifies ).

- - - Updated - - -

The less customization, the less fun. Fact. That’s why classic and tbc are so beloved.

My biggest knock on the OPs system is still too little in that regard. Only one new ability at 120? Not I want a new ability every level from 110-120

Eq, a game older than wow, still adds new abilities to its classes as of just this year so I don’t understand or buy any of blizzards excuses of “its too hard”. No it isn’t, just open an ad&d manual and start rhere

- - - Updated - - -



That’s the biggest issue with modern WoW is all the rpg elements were stripped out over the years and what’s left is like a bad parody of what an mmorpg should be. It has more in common with diablo 3 than eq and you should never be able to say that about an mmorpg, especially considering diablo 3 did all it could to strip rpg elements too

I disagree.

Classic is fresh air because wow became an even more casual game, with RNG stuff like

• Warforged/Titanforged
• Sockets
• Extra random stats
• Impossible to trade items if you don't have the same ilvl on that specific slot
• Bonus roll unable to be traded
• No granted drop

In classic the builds where always the same.
There were no random or customization if you wanted to be efficient.

You have ofc more possibilities, but since the best stuff is always one or at least two builds related, what's the point of it?

[justandulas]

Yeah, but I will be fine even with some middle ground, like:

• The possibility to chose our equipment, instead of being forced to play with some stats.
• Entirely removing the sockets/warforged mechanics, since they give random advantages to random players.
• limit the equip ilvl ( and forbid some stuff like void stones ) in some game modes, like Arenas /RBG

Talents would probably be the less problematic stuff to deal with, just because

• There will always be a BEST build for every class
• Everybody will have the same talents

But, if you think about it, since there's always a best build... then the work towards talents would be pretty much a waste of time ( unless you plan an ongoing work on them, which changes the meta every x months because of modifies ).

- - - Updated - - -



I disagree.

Classic is fresh air because wow became an even more casual game, with RNG stuff like

• Warforged/Titanforged
• Sockets
• Extra random stats
• Impossible to trade items if you don't have the same ilvl on that specific slot
• Bonus roll unable to be traded
• No granted drop

In classic the builds where always the same.
There were no random or customization if you wanted to be efficient.

You have ofc more possibilities, but since the best stuff is always one or at least two builds related, what's the point of it?

Plenty of hybrid builds were used through all of vanilla and tbc. Were there cookie cutter choices? Always but the door for spell dmg paladin, or sl/sl lock, priest healing hybrids, Pom pyro mage, etc all existed.

It offers more variety. More choices are always better. The talent points are a big factor in that missing rpg experience of modern vs yesterday. Cookie cutter or not, you still built your character level by level and piece by piece. It is built for you in modern, are there any rpg elements ecen left in retail?

[Gatto]

Plenty of hybrid builds were used through all of vanilla and tbc. Were there cookie cutter choices? Always but the door for spell dmg paladin, or sl/sl lock, priest healing hybrids, Pom pyro mage, etc all existed.

It offers more variety. More choices are always better. The talent points are a big factor in that missing rpg experience of modern vs yesterday. Cookie cutter or not, you still built your character level by level and piece by piece. It is built for you in modern, are there any rpg elements ecen left in retail?

All the elements I wrote down ( about equip and related customization ) are totally rpg because they are all random and not granted.
I would like to only improve my crit and mastery, and guess what I can't because of rpg elements such as rng.

Shockadin is a tbc stuff, not vanilla ( as for hybrid priests and locks ).

You have to realize that people now are not playing vanilla but classic, with TBC talents like holy shock, swiftmend, moonkin form, Power Infusion, Bestial Wrath, etc...
And the current classic is not vanilla at all, unfortunately.

And just to be clear, with tbc talents i mean pre tbc stuff which was added slightly before the end of vanilla.

[justandulas]

All the elements I wrote down ( about equip and related customization ) are totally rpg because they are all random and not granted.
I would like to only improve my crit and mastery, and guess what I can't because of rpg elements such as rng.

Shockadin is a tbc stuff, not vanilla ( as for hybrid priests and locks ).

You have to realize that people now are not playing vanilla but classic, with TBC talents like holy shock, swiftmend, moonkin form, Power Infusion, Bestial Wrath, etc...
And the current classic is not vanilla at all, unfortunately.

And just to be clear, with tbc talents i mean pre tbc stuff which was added slightly before the end of vanilla.

I did say Vanilla and TBC (sl/sl lock was tbc too, rip my favorite arena spec)

I've been playing the beta, and no it isn't classic with tbc talents. None of the pre tbc talents are in the build. they came in 1.13. This is build 1.12. 100% the pre tbc stuff isn't in classic wow my friend.

EDIT: as proof of that, you can check the wow classic forums and look at the people crying for TCG items that were introduced in the pre tbc patch (the vendor isn't there) and as far as i know the only outside pets are the vanilla CE pets, and eventually Murky.

[Gatto]

I did say Vanilla and TBC (sl/sl lock was tbc too, rip my favorite arena spec)

I've been playing the beta, and no it isn't classic with tbc talents. None of the pre tbc talents are in the build. they came in 1.13. This is build 1.12. 100% the pre tbc stuff isn't in classic wow my friend.

EDIT: as proof of that, you can check the wow classic forums and look at the people crying for TCG items that were introduced in the pre tbc patch (the vendor isn't there) and as far as i know the only outside pets are the vanilla CE pets, and eventually Murky.

I didn't have any druids on mc/bwl with swiftmend, nor priests with power infusion, so they are not the talents at the release.
You are playing early vanilla with no early vanilla talents.

Your point is "they are not from the patch which came out the last month, but earlier"?
This could be true ( I admit that I don't remember well how many months have passed since the release ), but still my point remains.

That is not vanilla, but classic.

[justandulas]

I didn't have any druids on mc/bwl with swiftmend, nor priests with power infusion, so they are not the talents at the release.
You are playing early vanilla with no early vanilla talents.

Your point is "they are not from the patch which came out the last month, but earlier"?
This could be true ( I admit that I don't remember well how many months have passed since the release ), but still my point remains.

That is not vanilla, but classic.

fair enough, but i don't mind the balance of 1.12 since it helped to bring other classes into the fold more... but i'd have been salty if it was 1.13 and TBC talents.

there's actually some TCG guys on the classic forum crying they deserve their pets cuz the pre tbc patch was "classic" technically /eyeroll.

no worries about tbc talents at least. that ain't happening

[Unholyground]

How about they make 5 talents in every row instead of 3 so we have more choice and flavor.

[czarek]

Crap. Give back all talent trees style.