[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[The Oblivion]

I agree to a point. Wasting other peoples time is never acceptable, but neither is being an asshole over numbers when the numbers aren't going to change the overall outcome, like in MSQ dungeons and trials. You can be critical of others without being an asshole.

When this happens in performance oriented content though, yeah, let them know. People need to live up to the expectations.

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Not doing your best =/= being carried. There's a pretty profound difference, IMO, to having a "less than average run" and being carried.

the point is, in his example, he thought he did well to good, had he not been running a meter, he would have continued to play like that assuming in ignorance he is doing good. the meter provided him with data that he was not well or good, but bad.

[Katchii]

its really only useful in noob content to easily spot afk's and leeches. nothing more.

Fair point.

[The Oblivion]

This is exactly why they don't want meters in the game. "Difference in play style" as you put is not a good enough reason to kick someone, unless they're literally holding the group back from completing the content.

thats where you are wrong. i could solo dps every single dungeon in the game. a terrible player could complete the dungeon with my damage carrying them. But if you are in expert doing 1k dps, you are getting kicked. end of story.

[Katchii]

the point is, in his example, he thought he did well to good, had he not been running a meter, he would have continued to play like that assuming in ignorance he is doing good. the meter provided him with data that he was not well or good, but bad.

I didn't read it that way. I took it more as they had a bad run. They knew how to play the class and knew what they should be doing, they just didn't do it all correctly/ effectively that particular run. Based on previous posts and the 10+ years of experience with the class.

If what you say was accurate, then I would agree with the need for meters to help them improve.

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thats where you are wrong. i could solo dps every single dungeon in the game. a terrible player could complete the dungeon with my damage carrying them. But if you are in expert doing 1k dps, you are getting kicked. end of story.

While in principal I agree with you wanting to kick them, because they're being dead weight, kicking them is unnecessary. You'd still be able to complete the content with them performing that way.

Kicking someone for low DPS is technically harassment on your part. Though it could be argued they're harassing you by being that bad and actively hindering the party efficiency, the TOS don't work that way currently, and I can understand why.

[Binaris]

IM not talking for the people who had a bad run or are simply lacking the gear. If I had a dollar for every person I run into that outright plays wrong, refuses to use abilities, and simply commits the douchebaggery of demanding carries, I wouldn't have to pay my sub.

Ninjas who are salty they aren't rogues refusing to use ninjutsu
Black mages rping that they are scared of fire, or even more shockingly, try to argue mathematically that ice is only a 10% loss.

General bad play at expert dungeons should not be acceptable. There is no reason for it, the game makes it obvious what you SHOULD do to at least have an acceptable performance. Many ignore that like it is an artform.

[Katchii]

IM not talking for the people who had a bad run or are simply lacking the gear. If I had a dollar for every person I run into that outright plays wrong, refuses to use abilities, and simply commits the douchebaggery of demanding carries, I wouldn't have to pay my sub.

Ninjas who are salty they aren't rogues refusing to use ninjutsu
Black mages rping that they are scared of fire, or even more shockingly, try to argue mathematically that ice is only a 10% loss.

General bad play at expert dungeons should not be acceptable. There is no reason for it, the game makes it obvious what you SHOULD do to at least have an acceptable performance. Many ignore that like it is an artform.

The kinds of people you're talking about do exist, but in my experience, they're really rare. In those cases though, I do agree with you.

[The Oblivion]

I didn't read it that way. I took it more as they had a bad run. They knew how to play the class and knew what they should be doing, they just didn't do it all correctly/ effectively that particular run. Based on previous posts and the 10+ years of experience with the class.

If what you say was accurate, then I would agree with the need for meters to help them improve.

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While in principal I agree with you wanting to kick them, because they're being dead weight, kicking them is unnecessary. You'd still be able to complete the content with them performing that way.

Kicking someone for low DPS is technically harassment on your part. Though it could be argued they're harassing you by being that bad and actively hindering the party efficiency, the TOS don't work that way currently, and I can understand why.

thats just too bad for them. they are still getting kicked for trying to get dragged along.

[TriHard]

thats where you are wrong. i could solo dps every single dungeon in the game. a terrible player could complete the dungeon with my damage carrying them. But if you are in expert doing 1k dps, you are getting kicked. end of story.

And you are getting banned. End of story.
See what I did there? :^) Yoink

[Binaris]

thats just too bad for them. they are still getting kicked for trying to get dragged along.

As they should. Difference in playstyle is a valid kick. Playing so poorly that it makes you wonder how someone could either be so ignorant or so inconsiderate is surely a difference. It is not your job to teach someone how to play their class. Trying to do so will almost always get you reported. The best thing you can do is say nothing unless it is something clearly visible without meters. Self buffs and full mp were always good indicators.

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And you are getting banned. End of story.
See what I did there? :^) Yoink

No ban. Gms have outright said difference in playstyle is a kickable offense. The issue is when verbal harassment comes with that kick.

[The Oblivion]

And you are getting banned. End of story.
See what I did there? :^) Yoink

nope, i wont.

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As they should. Difference in playstyle is a valid kick. Playing so poorly that it makes you wonder how someone could either be so ignorant or so inconsiderate is surely a difference. It is not your job to teach someone how to play their class. Trying to do so will almost always get you reported. The best thing you can do is say nothing unless it is something clearly visible without meters. Self buffs and full mp were always good indicators.

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No ban. Gms have outright said difference in playstyle is a kickable offense. The issue is when verbal harassment comes with that kick.

we never say anything because of how care bear the community is, we just kick the leeches and move on

[Irian]

IM not talking for the people who had a bad run or are simply lacking the gear. If I had a dollar for every person I run into that outright plays wrong, refuses to use abilities, and simply commits the douchebaggery of demanding carries, I wouldn't have to pay my sub.

Ninjas who are salty they aren't rogues refusing to use ninjutsu
Black mages rping that they are scared of fire, or even more shockingly, try to argue mathematically that ice is only a 10% loss.

General bad play at expert dungeons should not be acceptable. There is no reason for it, the game makes it obvious what you SHOULD do to at least have an acceptable performance. Many ignore that like it is an artform.

I can't help but feel like this phenomena must be either on a different datacenter or grossly exaggerated. I almost never see stuff like this.

In what must be thousands of expert roulettes by now and many other runs, most players who do stuff like this are just not aware they should be playing any differently. The ice mage has become something of a meme but I have yet to see it even once and I've done a lot of roulettes.

I can count on one hand how many times I've seen someone on my datacenter being intentionally bad, and that was a bard in a 3-person premade who literally wouldn't move because she was salty that Bardmage was a thing in Heavensward. "if they're going to add cast times then i'm just not going to move".

we never say anything because of how care bear the community is, we just kick the leeches and move on

It's less of care bear and more that GMs actually enforce their own rules.

I don't really see it as a bad thing that you're not allowed to berate a player for possibly just being inexperienced or bad at MMORPGs. You still have the option to kick them, and can if you want. I don't know what's wrong with also enforcing, partially community-side, the idea that you're not allowed to belittle people. You're perfectly allowed to give advice or ask them wtf is going on, you're just not allowed to abuse them.

[The Oblivion]

I can't help but feel like this phenomena must be either on a different datacenter or grossly exaggerated. I almost never see stuff like this.

In what must be thousands of expert roulettes by now and many other runs, most players who do stuff like this are just not aware they should be playing any differently. The ice mage has become something of a meme but I have yet to see it even once and I've done a lot of roulettes.

I can count on one hand how many times I've seen someone on my datacenter being intentionally bad, and that was a bard in a 3-person premade who literally wouldn't move because she was salty that Bardmage was a thing in Heavensward. "if they're going to add cast times then i'm just not going to move".

It's less of care bear and more that GMs actually enforce their own rules.

I don't really see it as a bad thing that you're not allowed to berate a player for possibly just being inexperienced or bad at MMORPGs. You still have the option to kick them, and can if you want. I don't know what's wrong with also enforcing, partially community-side, the idea that you're not allowed to belittle people. You're perfectly allowed to give advice or ask them wtf is going on, you're just not allowed to abuse them.

also known as care bear.

[Irian]

also known as care bear.

So you think not allowing people to abuse pugs who are worse than them is equivalent to being a care bear?

I'm really glad you don't run any MMORPGs.

[Dugna]

sounds like some of yall should never run random que content ever, if you don't wish to deal with the variable of bad players then don't sign up for the roulette.

[evertonbelmontt]

I can't help but feel like this phenomena must be either on a different datacenter or grossly exaggerated. I almost never see stuff like this.

Chances are that if something like this is happening a lot to someone, the common thing in all these instances and situations is that the person who keeps "stumbling onto bad players" isn't aware of him/her being a problem or at least part of the problem (raging or being toxic just makes things go from "slightly bad" to real bad).

I played MMORPGs for a LONG time now and this almost never happens to me. Not in WoW, Rag or FF when I played it.

TLDR; if it happens a lot with "you", consider "you" being the problem.

[Delever]

I see a lot of people bashing on the use of ACT or kicking random bads. Here is my input on this. I pretty much use ACT all the time just to figure stuff out. My parses have always been mostly oranges and high purples. That being said I never played the elitist card in groups or flaunted my deeps.
ON THE OTHER HAND.... sometimes there are players who are bad at a level that is impossible to be bad.
Riddle me this. How can a warrior of 395 average ilvl with the fucking Eureka 405 weapon be dealing 1700 dps in a lakshimi farm run?
It's almost mathematically impossible. Even if the dude was literally spamming one combo the entire fight and expending his bar on fel cleaves every so often I m pretty sure he d be dealing more than 2k.
I ve had even worse in expert roulettes. How can you have played these many hours of the game (cause it takes quite a few hours to get to max on this game) and be this clueless about at least the most basic things that your class does.

[Irian]

I see a lot of people bashing on the use of ACT or kicking random bads.

I'm personally hugely in favor of both of these things, although I can't speak for anything else.

ACT is almost mandatory if you want to become really good at the game, as many savage fights balance themselves around enrage timers to make sure you can't just fall all over your face, spam raises and get by. I'm also in favor of kicking players who are so far below the demands of that particular dungeon because getting wordlessly kicked a lot might give them the hint that they're dragging a party down without having to be a douche about it. Hell, I'd even suggest acknowledging players who aren't doing great as long as you're not a huge ass about it.

The only thing I'm personally strongly against is shit talk and abuse towards underperforming players. I've never been on the receiving end of it but I can't fucking stand this very WoW-born MMORPG mentality of shitting all over a player just because they may not know the game as well as someone else. It's childish as hell and should be shamed way more than the person who might be trying to learn a new class should be.

[Delever]

Because the vast majority of the community simply don't care if they're bad, they play for fun, this isn't WoW where everyone has their heads up their own ass over how good they are and that's a damn good thing because that shit breeds toxicity and FFXIV doesn't need WoW's toxicity seeping in.

I'd also recommend not using ACT to mock people or mentioning ACT, it's not a popular addon for a lot of people and from what I've read on the reddit SE can suspend/ban you if you use ACT to abuse people over their performances, whether that's true or not, I don't know but be careful when using it.

Toxicity is a bad thing but if you r advocating that people not knowing their rotations is a good thing.... oh boy

[Granyala]

But using your specific example, you would have been fine/content/happy with your performance but seeing the actual numbers made you not so much. You admitted that knowing/seeing the numbers affected your experience negatively, where you would have been fine otherwise.

Frustration is one of the reasons why we strive to be better. Not just in video games.
When playing a musical instrument and my playing sucks/is not presentable to others, that feeling of inadequacy (as long as it isn't overwhelming to the point that you give up ofc) spurs you to practice more, get better and ultimately "win" by presenting a more refined piece.

Mistakes are the best teachers available, covering them up so the feels do not get ruffled is the worst thing one can do. I get that many people love pretending and love lying to themselves though. See it plenty in all kinds of real life situations, not many people actually like to self reflect.

[Faroth]

People analyzing performance on dungeon runs that were obsolete the day they came out and getting angry about people's DPS are basically creating their own frustration.

"You know, I know this DPS isn't performance up to par. I know that when I can't see ACT and the run goes smoothly with no wipes and finishes in a reasonable time, the experience is just telling my brain that everything is going okay. After nine years, you know what I realize? Ignorance is bliss."

If you're doing savage raids, I get it. If you're watching ACT like a hawk in roulettes and pouring over it afterwards, you're just abusing yourself.