View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. This poll is closed
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #17781
    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    Wow, that's how we feel about social services in America.
    Yes, well, the difference is, if life fucks you over, we still have it... nobody's too proud to starve over here, there's a limit to a poor man's pride.

    Also, you tend to rely on charity a lot more. I'd rather ask the state for my entitled social security than beg others for mercy.
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  2. #17782
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Funny how racists can't cooperate with other nations' racists. It's as if the whole movement is doomed to fail. I wager we'll only see a far-right bloc once they decide there is a thing as "European nationalism".

    In which case, they can't be Eurosceptic anymore. I'd probably just hang myself if I was one of them. It's all so pointless.
    QFT.

    The idea of an international nationalistic co-op is laughable on so many levels, I wonder if Le-Pen wants to welcome all the immigrants that Salvini wants to send further into Europe. Nationalistic parties are pretty much like Trump, them first and fuck everyone else.

    I guess the Axis powers is a good example of how well that shit works out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    Wow, that's how we feel about social services in America.
    Wrong, in America you feel for paying overprices for medicine and otherwise let cooporations screw you over, while watching your countrymen die in the gutter.

  3. #17783
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Funny how racists can't cooperate with other nations' racists. It's as if the whole movement is doomed to fail. I wager we'll only see a far-right bloc once they decide there is a thing as "European nationalism".
    Oh, but there is. I count myself a European nationalist. I want to live in a country called Europe.

  4. #17784
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    QFT.

    The idea of an international nationalistic co-op is laughable on so many levels, I wonder if Le-Pen wants to welcome all the immigrants that Salvini wants to send further into Europe. Nationalistic parties are pretty much like Trump, them first and fuck everyone else.

    I guess the Axis powers is a good example of how well that shit works out.
    I still find nationalists in Europe to be really weird. Do UK nationalists support Welsh, Irish, or Scottish nationalism? Or is that bad nationalism? Would Spanish nationalists support Catalan independence? Or Italian nationalists support South Tyrol rejoining Austria? Do French nationalists want to annex Wallonia and western Switzerland because there are french speaking people living there?

    Where does the nationalism line stop exactly? Because basically every country in Europe is a combination of different cultural groups and a good number of them don't contain their entire cultural group(French and Dutch for example).

  5. #17785
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    Where does the nationalism line stop exactly? Because basically every country in Europe is a combination of different cultural groups and a good number of them don't contain their entire cultural group(French and Dutch for example).
    As no major modern nationalist parties want wars with neighbors, that limits "nationalism line" to existing borders.

  6. #17786
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    As no major modern nationalist parties want wars with neighbors, that limits "nationalism line" to existing borders.
    But how does it work for different cultures within a nation?

    I remember Spanish nationalism being rather bad for the Basque and Catalan people.

  7. #17787
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    But how does it work for different cultures within a nation?

    I remember Spanish nationalism being rather bad for the Basque and Catalan people.
    Obviously Spanish nationalists believe that their country should be kept as is (as do UK nationalists), while Catalan nationalists believe they should be independent (as do Scottish nationalists).

  8. #17788
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Obviously Spanish nationalists believe that their country should be kept as is (as do UK nationalists), while Catalan nationalists believe they should be independent (as do Scottish nationalists).
    Well, no, when Spain was ruled by Spanish nationalists they thought all of Spain should be Spanish, including efforts to erase Catalan and Basque cultures. That's not keeping it the same, that's enforcing a national cultural identity on the whole country even though the country itself is multicultural.

    If I was in Europe and part of a minority culture in a nation with nationalism on the rise I'd be very concerned right now. Don't blame the Scottish for looking at that "leave the UK" button a bit more lately.
    Last edited by Wyrt; 2019-06-06 at 08:57 AM.

  9. #17789
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    Well, no, when Spain was ruled by Spanish nationalists they thought all of Spain should be Spanish, including efforts to erase Catalan and Basque cultures. That's not keeping it the same, that's enforcing a national cultural identity on the whole country even though the country itself is multicultural.
    "As is" as in "in current borders", not necessarily "in exactly same cultural mix" (nationalists tend to prefer more homogeneous cultures, especially when some cultures are actively separatist).

  10. #17790
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    "As is" as in "in current borders", not necessarily "in exactly same cultural mix" (nationalists tend to prefer more homogeneous cultures, especially when some cultures are actively separatist).
    "Nationalism for me, but not for you" seems to be the European nationalist motto then.

  11. #17791
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    See Nationalism is majoritarian and suppression of minorities is not ideologically dissonant for it. You are maybe confusing it with Souverainism
    Ah, cool, I figured there was another word for it since nationalism really wouldn't fit with some of the independence movements.

  12. #17792
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Oh, but there is. I count myself a European nationalist. I want to live in a country called Europe.
    Oh, I'm aware of it. But you have to convince them of it. And for some reason, you don't strike me as the idiot nationalist. Perhaps I'm wrong, I don't care, though, as long as everyone gives the EU a fair shot, we'll try this puppy out once and for all. If it fails we can continue to bash each others heads in afterwards.

    I have my doubts it'll fail, though. Everyone's benefitting from cooperation too much.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    See Nationalism is majoritarian and suppression of minorities is not ideologically dissonant for it. You are maybe confusing it with Souverainism
    Are you making up shit now?

    I mean, if anyone's good at making up shit about politics, it's the Greek... but I think this is new and you need to explain it to the people like me that don't have philosophy injected into them at birth...
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  13. #17793
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    I still find nationalists in Europe to be really weird. Do UK nationalists support Welsh, Irish, or Scottish nationalism? Or is that bad nationalism? Would Spanish nationalists support Catalan independence? Or Italian nationalists support South Tyrol rejoining Austria? Do French nationalists want to annex Wallonia and western Switzerland because there are french speaking people living there?

    Where does the nationalism line stop exactly? Because basically every country in Europe is a combination of different cultural groups and a good number of them don't contain their entire cultural group(French and Dutch for example).
    It's normal to be confused because by definition the nationalism in Europe/EU is an contradiction.

    Look at this way. We don't want the Polish in West Europe so are we going to work with the Polish racist to kick out the polish? Hell no, no way that the Polish government would accept that.

    The idea is was that all sides hate Muslims and dislike the EU

  14. #17794
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    "Nationalism for me, but not for you" seems to be the European nationalist motto then.
    It's really mostly about identity. It's how the nations in Europe became nations. At some point you decided that the city over the river ain't that bad and it's really the French both of you hate more.

    So now, we're in the process of deciding the French ain't that bad, as long as we all collectively hate on Russia. I mean, if you detach emotions from it, nationalism is a necessary step in nationbuilding. Italians are vastly different from Germans, but in comparison to the Japanese, they're practically twins that just like vanilla instead of chocolate ice and the differences ain't all that bad, really. Once you come to think about it.
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  15. #17795
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    It's a French word actually and most popular there. The ideology of sovereignty, largely defined by its opposition to any form of federalism.
    Ok, so they're game for the EU as long as it's centralized?

    I'm pretty sure that's not how they think, so I'm probably still not getting it.
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  16. #17796
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    It's normal to be confused because by definition the nationalism in Europe/EU is an contradiction.

    Look at this way. We don't want the Polish in West Europe so are we going to work with the Polish racist to kick out the polish? Hell no, no way that the Polish government would accept that.

    The idea is was that all sides hate Muslims and dislike the EU
    And add that some sides wants to ship their muslims to the other nationalists, and while they all hate the EU, some are depending on EU funding. They'll loose traction over the next decade, when the "immigration crisis" is a thing of the past and their inability to get anything done in EU is clear.

  17. #17797
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Oh, I'm aware of it. But you have to convince them of it. And for some reason, you don't strike me as the idiot nationalist.
    I'm trying hard not to be one. People can't handle the nuance between nationalist and chauvinist these days and the former has absorbed all the unsavoury connotations of the latter.

  18. #17798
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    But economic hardship could trigger further popular discontent with the political status quo and drive some to the far right as a protest vote. And that is not unlikely.
    Or the far left.

  19. #17799
    Agreed, the far right (at least in Denmark) have no noteworthy policy in regards to the climate change challenges.

  20. #17800
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    "As is" as in "in current borders", not necessarily "in exactly same cultural mix" (nationalists tend to prefer more homogeneous cultures, especially when some cultures are actively separatist).
    No, they do not care for "current borders" they try to impose their delusions on others.
    They just love to come up with their own ideas where the borders should be.

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